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Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
So, we have the first 10 gallons of epoxy barrier paint on the hull. We'll do one more coat, of a different color, to warn us in the future if the barrier coat has been breached (it would show red). We did a fantastic job, if we do say so ourselves. Unfortunately, timing-wise, this being the Labor Day weekend, we couldn't order either of the last couple of gallons of barrier coat, or the two different colors of anti-fouling paint we'll put on, the first of which will be virtually simultaneously with the last barrier coat in order for the epoxy to bond to the anti-foul paint. So, casting about the boat for stuff to cross off on our list of small stuff which remains to be done, the attaching of the new packing gland for the driveshaft appears. The packing gland was slid onto the shaft as it entered the boat, so it was ready to use some soapy water to make it slide onto the shaft log, the fiberglass tube in which the shaft exits the boat. Unfortunately, inspection, which we'd not thought of, given the excellent alignment of the drive shaft flange and the transmission flanges, showed that our shaft is nowhere near centered in the shaft log. We had a dripless gland before, and that used a flexible bellows between the shaft log and the bearing/gland. I'm sure that non-centered position was why the installation of that gland was such a challenge to set up properly, and, with it still in place, the guy who installed the new engine mounts and brackets for same, these 5 years ago, didn't see it as being misaligned, there, either. Of course, therefore, he blithely aligned the shaft and transmission - but with the entire assembly off-center. So, before we can proceed with keeping the water out of the boat, I'll have to realign the engine. As long as it's been, I'm expecting that will involve lifting the engine and removing all the parts which will need to be free during the alignment, those likely having corroded such that they won't move. It's a technically stultifyingly simple job, but I'm afraid the execution will be massively irritating and lengthy. Pictures when I get them and solve my failure of my remote WiFi adapter... L8R Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:13:16 -0400, WaIIy wrote:
On Sat, 1 Sep 2012 15:00:40 -0700 (PDT), Flying Pig wrote: So, before we can proceed with keeping the water out of the boat, I'll have to realign the engine. Oh my goodness. Poor guy, the best of luck. Maybe now is the time to think of a VW camper :) === It's been my experience that anytime you spend an inordinate amount of effort bringing one part of the boat to near perfection, some other part is being neglected or overlooked. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Pertinent to my earlier two-steps/one-step, these pix show the prior dripless, misaligned relative to the tube, as seen from the offset in the upper left of the picture relative to the shaft, and the shaft as it's now attached to the engine, along with pictures of the motor mounts I'll have to deal with to correct it...
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...6033580&type=1 https://plus.google.com/photos/11126...66892144909410 If you can't access one or both of these you'll have to wait until I get my computer back on line :{/) L8R Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Assuming I can get a slip (depth is probably the limiter) when we splash, so that we can sit and stabilize for a couple of weeks, this is what I expect to do in the meantime:
Uncouple the shaft and move it back from the tranny (an inch or so). Center the shaft by hanging, verifying ease of turning (I replaced the cutlass, and the shaft, if it’s centered in the log, should be centered in the cutlass). Keep the shaft hung, and mount the new packing gland. Before tightening the clamps, verify clearance on all sides of the bronze, and adjust to fit if not. Spin on the packing nut (already packed and somewhat compressed, done while we had the shaft out). Free up the motor mounts in all directions, which may involve hanging the engine and dismounting the parts attached to the engine. The stems of the tangs would want to move freely in the sleeves (in-out and rotation), and the nuts to the mounts spin freely. MAYBE the bolts holding the mounts to the brackets, too. That SHOULD allow a minimum of effort (still expected to be a lot) to move the engine from side to side at both front and rear, and the nuts on the mounts to allow height twiddles. I'll probably try to do them one at a time. Once splashed, tighten the gland to the degree it just stops leaking. A couple of weeks later, align the engine to the coupling, loosen the gland to allow some drips, and run in place for a bit to allow the packing to seat, before final (well, initial, really, as it will continue to wear in a bit, I expect) tighten/lock. Am I missing anything? If I CAN’T get a slip, do all the above, but mount and align the engine, but then verify/realign as needed a couple of weeks later? Thanks again for your interest and commentary. Pretty far out (of center), eh? L8R Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT), Flying Pig
wrote: Assuming I can get a slip (depth is probably the limiter) when we splash, so that we can sit and stabilize for a couple of weeks, this is what I expect to do in the meantime: Uncouple the shaft and move it back from the tranny (an inch or so). Center the shaft by hanging, verifying ease of turning (I replaced the cutlass, and the shaft, if it’s centered in the log, should be centered in the cutlass). Keep the shaft hung, and mount the new packing gland. Before tightening the clamps, verify clearance on all sides of the bronze, and adjust to fit if not. Spin on the packing nut (already packed and somewhat compressed, done while we had the shaft out). Free up the motor mounts in all directions, which may involve hanging the engine and dismounting the parts attached to the engine. The stems of the tangs would want to move freely in the sleeves (in-out and rotation), and the nuts to the mounts spin freely. MAYBE the bolts holding the mounts to the brackets, too. That SHOULD allow a minimum of effort (still expected to be a lot) to move the engine from side to side at both front and rear, and the nuts on the mounts to allow height twiddles. I'll probably try to do them one at a time. It depends on your engine mounts and the mounting brackets but on my last boat I was able to fabricate brackets that attached to the engine with a "jacking" bolt that bore against the engine mount. To move the engine vertically I could, of course, use the nuts on the engine mount stem and the home made brackets allowed me to move the engine laterally by winding a bolt in. Much, much easier then the long pry bar method. Admittedly this scheme will not work on all installations but when it does it makes engine alignment a doodle. Once splashed, tighten the gland to the degree it just stops leaking. A couple of weeks later, align the engine to the coupling, loosen the gland to allow some drips, and run in place for a bit to allow the packing to seat, before final (well, initial, really, as it will continue to wear in a bit, I expect) tighten/lock. Am I missing anything? If I CAN’T get a slip, do all the above, but mount and align the engine, but then verify/realign as needed a couple of weeks later? Thanks again for your interest and commentary. Pretty far out (of center), eh? L8R Skip I've aligned the engine in a 40 ft. sailboat while ashore and when checked a couple of weeks after launching I could detect no change in alignment. You may find the same. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 08:09:20 +0700, Bruce
wrote: I've aligned the engine in a 40 ft. sailboat while ashore and when checked a couple of weeks after launching I could detect no change in alignment. You may find the same. === The key variable is rig tension, especially the back stay. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Yesterday, I uncoupled the shaft and went to work on the motor mounts.
Some very small progress, at the expense of skinned knuckles, puncture wounds, and a very sore shoulder, in a contorted position with only crescent wrenches, since I don't own ones large enough to fit on the nuts on the motor mounts. The good news is that I didn't expect to make that much progress, the forward ones can slide left-right on their brackets (vs the rears, which have pins which have to slide in tubes, and are probably frozen). With the proper tool(s) I think I can manage the nuts on the engine mount studs; the only real question is whether the sliders in the rear will require removal in order to be moved. The ones in the front slide (or have adequate room to do so, I believe, being nominally centered) on slots in the brackets. For whatever reason, perhaps not seen adequately in the pix, there is a major frame made on the engine for the rear pin/sliders-in-tubes, in order to extend the mount further out. That means that these are mounted over the stringers, and so the left-right motion has to come from the pins. I expect that in a few days, I'll have it centered and dry-mounted. With any luck, like my friend Bruce, when it's been in the water for a month or so, it will still be aligned. I'm much more encouraged at the end of the day than I was at the beginning.. L8R Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
I made great progress in the alignment saga today. Lots more contortions, but the exertion part was alleviated by the borrowing of a couple of very serious wrenches, allowing me better leverage. Once I had stuff moving, I could use my smaller wrenches to good effect, having the ability to move them further because they were lots shorter.
I got all of the sliding stuff loose today, something I'd been pretty concerned about. However, as most things I do will defer to brute force, and I'm a brute, sometimes, I got things started. At the moment we're nearly finished with the gross alignment of the shaft in the exit tube. Once we have that set, we'll go about making the face of the coupler match up perfectly with the flange on the transmission. As everything is entirely loose at the moment, I have little doubt that the hard part is yet come, as every loose part has to be retightened, and every time I do that, the alignment will change, slightly. However, I'll keep at it (I'm known for patience), and as long as I've got it all loose, won't settle for better than the .004 it was before (albeit, WAAAY off straight astern). WooHoo! L8R, y'all Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... I made great progress in the alignment saga today. Lots more contortions, but the exertion part was alleviated by the borrowing of a couple of very serious wrenches, allowing me better leverage. Once I had stuff moving, I could use my smaller wrenches to good effect, having the ability to move them further because they were lots shorter. I got all of the sliding stuff loose today, something I'd been pretty concerned about. However, as most things I do will defer to brute force, and I'm a brute, sometimes, I got things started. At the moment we're nearly finished with the gross alignment of the shaft in the exit tube. Once we have that set, we'll go about making the face of the coupler match up perfectly with the flange on the transmission. As everything is entirely loose at the moment, I have little doubt that the hard part is yet come, as every loose part has to be retightened, and every time I do that, the alignment will change, slightly. However, I'll keep at it (I'm known for patience), and as long as I've got it all loose, won't settle for better than the .004 it was before (albeit, WAAAY off straight astern). WooHoo! ================[reply]======================= Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news:504a191a$0$62077 Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard Heh. Reading deficit, eh? We got the shaft centered. That took care of the alignment with the cutlass. The shaft turns readily, by hand, from the skinny end outside, the middle, next to the log, and the transmission, where I've got the coupling mated with the bolts, but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine. At this moment I'm about .005 off gap to starboard. That only happened when I tightened down the last two of the mounts. It previously was about .003 off to bottom I was expecting that (changes as I tighten the various elements of adjustment), of course. A couple of rounds of fiddling, and it will be finished. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Today started early - too early, as I couldn't get back to sleep after waking at 3:30AM.
So, I did as I always do after 30 minutes awake - I got up, and read. Then I headed to the boat, where I resolved the conflict in my WiFi system, thus providing access to the dozen or so folks who have come to rely on my signal. Then I dove into the engine room again, where, the short story is that I can't get my smallest feeler gauge, 0.003", between any place, at any rotation, on the joint between the coupling and transmission flange on the engine alignment I'd worried so much about. Before that, I did the gross alignment, making the shaft centered in the exit tube and cutlass bearing, and hand-movable with little effort from outside, in the middle, and at the transmission. The actual alignment was as expected, lots of cut-and-try, but now all is locked down. I'll let it settle for a couple of days, shake the engine as much as I can and check it again, but I'd bet I'm done, as my crawling all over the engine to get to the mounts, at my 200+ avoirdupois has surely caused it to move and settle nicely. Reward is burger on the grill, followed by ice cream, before I head back tomorrow for more boat chores in prep for getting back on the high seas. Great day! |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message news:504a191a$0$62077 Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard Heh. Reading deficit, eh? We got the shaft centered. That took care of the alignment with the cutlass. The shaft turns readily, by hand, from the skinny end outside, the middle, next to the log, and the transmission, where I've got the coupling mated with the bolts, but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine. That's what I'm talking about. When you snug up the two flanges (propeller shaft flange and engine/transmission flange - assuming engine and transmission are integreal) unless their two flange faces are perfectly alligned snugging them down together will result is binding and releasing (vibration). Prior to snugging them down face-to-face you must assure yourself that they are perfectly parallel both horizontally and vertically. And, keep in mind, depending upon the flexibility of your old hull, that the relationship may well change when the boat is back in the water (not that that's EVER going to happen, LOL!) It can be rather tricky. Some of the Irwin 43's I helped build working as an MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) experienced this problem as the hulls were rather 'flexible' and the alignment was done on the production line. Some needed to be re-done once splashed. Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... Today started early - too early, as I couldn't get back to sleep after waking at 3:30AM. So, I did as I always do after 30 minutes awake - I got up, and read. Then I headed to the boat, where I resolved the conflict in my WiFi system, thus providing access to the dozen or so folks who have come to rely on my signal. Then I dove into the engine room again, where, the short story is that I can't get my smallest feeler gauge, 0.003", between any place, at any rotation, on the joint between the coupling and transmission flange on the engine alignment I'd worried so much about. Before that, I did the gross alignment, making the shaft centered in the exit tube and cutlass bearing, and hand-movable with little effort from outside, in the middle, and at the transmission. The actual alignment was as expected, lots of cut-and-try, but now all is locked down. I'll let it settle for a couple of days, shake the engine as much as I can and check it again, but I'd bet I'm done, as my crawling all over the engine to get to the mounts, at my 200+ avoirdupois has surely caused it to move and settle nicely. Reward is burger on the grill, followed by ice cream, before I head back tomorrow for more boat chores in prep for getting back on the high seas. ====================[reply]====================== Most likely wasted effort and a premature pat on the back. Come back and tell us the result once splashed. (That will probably be in 2013 or 2014 if past performance is an indication of future trends. LOL!) It might just be better to leave the final tightening until the "Pig" is floating again. And, feeler gauges don't cut it. Best you use two dial gauges working off the mating faces as I recommended. Once you have them perfect you can draw the two flanges completely together. Read this: http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 11:56:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... I made great progress in the alignment saga today. Lots more contortions, but the exertion part was alleviated by the borrowing of a couple of very serious wrenches, allowing me better leverage. Once I had stuff moving, I could use my smaller wrenches to good effect, having the ability to move them further because they were lots shorter. I got all of the sliding stuff loose today, something I'd been pretty concerned about. However, as most things I do will defer to brute force, and I'm a brute, sometimes, I got things started. At the moment we're nearly finished with the gross alignment of the shaft in the exit tube. Once we have that set, we'll go about making the face of the coupler match up perfectly with the flange on the transmission. As everything is entirely loose at the moment, I have little doubt that the hard part is yet come, as every loose part has to be retightened, and every time I do that, the alignment will change, slightly. However, I'll keep at it (I'm known for patience), and as long as I've got it all loose, won't settle for better than the .004 it was before (albeit, WAAAY off straight astern). WooHoo! ================[reply]======================= Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard How in the world would a chap who's entire boating experience involves a tiny plastic dinghy know anything about aligning an inboard installed engine and drive line? Easy.... he read it inna book and without other knowledge he professes to be an expert. Stupidity knows no bounds, apparently. Had you read the message, and had you an 8th grade command of English you would note the paragraph in which the O.P. states "At the moment we're nearly finished with the gross alignment of the shaft in the exit tube. Once we have that set, we'll go about making the face of the coupler match up perfectly with the flange on the transmission." But, as the Old Folks said, "stupid does as stupid does", and Willie provides living proof that they were right. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 17:07:40 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message news:504a191a$0$62077 Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard Heh. Reading deficit, eh? We got the shaft centered. That took care of the alignment with the cutlass. The shaft turns readily, by hand, from the skinny end outside, the middle, next to the log, and the transmission, where I've got the coupling mated with the bolts, but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine. That's what I'm talking about. When you snug up the two flanges (propeller shaft flange and engine/transmission flange - assuming engine and transmission are integreal) unless their two flange faces are perfectly alligned snugging them down together will result is binding and releasing (vibration). Prior to snugging them down face-to-face you must assure yourself that they are perfectly parallel both horizontally and vertically. And, keep in mind, depending upon the flexibility of your old hull, that the relationship may well change when the boat is back in the water (not that that's EVER going to happen, LOL!) It can be rather tricky. Some of the Irwin 43's I helped build working as an MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) experienced this problem as the hulls were rather 'flexible' and the alignment was done on the production line. Some needed to be re-done once splashed. Wilbur Hubbard Hey STUPID! Read the message before you set out to amaze us with your knowledge (or lack thereof). The O.P. stated, "... but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine." Read it again, "WE'VE NOT YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE". Got it yet? HE HASN'T YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE, you ignorant fool. Question. Does sweeping the floor and emptying the trash can constitute "help build"? |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Hi, Y'all,
I'm enjoying the arguments :{)) While I was aware, of course, of the intricacies of alignment, I'd not seen the westerbeke manual pages. In fact, I did just as it suggested. Once I got it aligned, I pulled the bolts and rotated the tranny 1/4 turn and reinserted the bolts. Pulled mightily as I twisted my wrist, and repeated my feeler gauge bits at the entire circumference, rotated 90° per time. Can't get the gauge between any of the faces... There are actually more than one Bruce (the other being someone I met in the Endeavour group many years ago, who splashed his 43 after 10 years ashore, recently) who've had no movement once back in the water for a time; I'm hopeful I'll have the same results, but am prepared to do battle with the system again as needed. L8R, y'all - pix to come. Skip |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com: Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard BullPucky! Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'. Of course you must get the prop shaft and transmission output shaft centres dead in line as well but you certainly dont need two dial gauges. BTDT including replacing the shaft log which involved fabricating a new GRP tube for the bronze log tube to fit in and glassing it in place. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
Flying Pig wrote in
: Hi, Y'all, I'm enjoying the arguments :{)) While I was aware, of course, of the intricacies of alignment, I'd not seen the westerbeke manual pages. In fact, I did just as it suggested. Once I got it aligned, I pulled the bolts and rotated the tranny 1/4 turn and reinserted the bolts. Pulled mightily as I twisted my wrist, and repeated my feeler gauge bits at the entire circumference, rotated 90° per time. Can't get the gauge between any of the faces... There are actually more than one Bruce (the other being someone I met in the Endeavour group many years ago, who splashed his 43 after 10 years ashore, recently) who've had no movement once back in the water for a time; I'm hopeful I'll have the same results, but am prepared to do battle with the system again as needed. L8R, y'all - pix to come. Skip Not good. You want enough clearance to get a feeler gauge in there, then rotate the two halves of the coupling TOGETHER while you check the clearance remains the same (at 4 positions round the coupling 90 deg apart). Twisting one half of the coupling 90 degrees only proves that the flanges are reasonably flat and square to the shafts. As you had the flanges jammed together, the shaft may be under enough compression load to bend it slightly to conform to the gearbox flange, hiding any misalignment. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 03:25:53 -0700 (PDT), Flying Pig
wrote: Hi, Y'all, I'm enjoying the arguments :{)) While I was aware, of course, of the intricacies of alignment, I'd not seen the westerbeke manual pages. In fact, I did just as it suggested. Once I got it aligned, I pulled the bolts and rotated the tranny 1/4 turn and reinserted the bolts. Pulled mightily as I twisted my wrist, and repeated my feeler gauge bits at the entire circumference, rotated 90° per time. Can't get the gauge between any of the faces... There are actually more than one Bruce (the other being someone I met in the Endeavour group many years ago, who splashed his 43 after 10 years ashore, recently) who've had no movement once back in the water for a time; I'm hopeful I'll have the same results, but am prepared to do battle with the system again as needed. L8R, y'all - pix to come. Skip I am assuming that you weren't trying to insert the feeler gage after you had tightened the bolts :-) |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:41:43 -0400, WaIIy wrote:
I think he put the feeler gauge in and then tightened the bolts. === As others have pointed out, that is not the right way to do it. Tightening the bolts on the coupling will correct minor misalignment by stressing the engine mounts but that is not what you want. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in anews.com: Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard BullPucky! Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'. Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts not being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that the two flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to the two flanges being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges. Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to understand what I'm talking about. Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only doing HALF the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well. http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"WaIIy" wrote in message
... On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:41:31 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:41:43 -0400, WaIIy wrote: I think he put the feeler gauge in and then tightened the bolts. === As others have pointed out, that is not the right way to do it. Tightening the bolts on the coupling will correct minor misalignment by stressing the engine mounts but that is not what you want. It was a joke. As are you, sir! |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com: "Ian Malcolm" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in anews.com: Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard BullPucky! Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'. Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts not being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that the two flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to the two flanges being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges. Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to understand what I'm talking about. Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only doing HALF the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well. http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf Wilbur Hubbard Well have you got any reputable reference for marine engine shaft alignment using two dial gauges? Your link above uses feeler gauges. Also what about static shaft deflection due to its own weight and the weight of the half coupling? I'd be interested to hear your version of how to compensate for it in practice. -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:30:02 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Ian Malcolm" wrote in message ... "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in anews.com: Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is doomed to failure. Why? Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange. IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move more than a blonde hair. Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy. Wilbur Hubbard BullPucky! Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'. Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts not being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that the two flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to the two flanges being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges. Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to understand what I'm talking about. Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only doing HALF the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well. http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf Wilbur Hubbard Ah yes, you maintain, but you don't know (as usual). |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:31:44 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "WaIIy" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:41:31 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:41:43 -0400, WaIIy wrote: I think he put the feeler gauge in and then tightened the bolts. === As others have pointed out, that is not the right way to do it. Tightening the bolts on the coupling will correct minor misalignment by stressing the engine mounts but that is not what you want. It was a joke. As are you, sir! \ Ah, the voice of the fool is heard thru the land. But my dear sir, it is far better to be a joke then a horse's arse. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... Hi, Y'all, I'm enjoying the arguments :{)) While I was aware, of course, of the intricacies of alignment, I'd not seen the westerbeke manual pages. In fact, I did just as it suggested. Once I got it aligned, I pulled the bolts and rotated the tranny 1/4 turn and reinserted the bolts. Pulled mightily as I twisted my wrist, and repeated my feeler gauge bits at the entire circumference, rotated 90° per time. Can't get the gauge between any of the faces... There are actually more than one Bruce (the other being someone I met in the Endeavour group many years ago, who splashed his 43 after 10 years ashore, recently) who've had no movement once back in the water for a time; I'm hopeful I'll have the same results, but am prepared to do battle with the system again as needed. L8R, y'all - pix to come. Skip So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my descriptions... This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange. 1) I left the bolts loose. 2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of 360°). 3) I unbolted and rotated the transmission flange 90° and rebolted (see #1). 4) Shake the engine vigorously Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. Go home. L8R, y'all... Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message news:k2iqko$1dh$1@dont-
[trim] So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my descriptions... This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange. 1) I left the bolts loose. Got it! 2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of 360°). Got it! But how dumb is it to tighten down the bolts all the way and then attempt to insert a feeler gauge? Duh. There is enough power in a tightened down set of bolts to draw together flanges that ARE NOT PARALLEL. Can't you see this simple reality, Skippy? 3) I unbolted and rotated the transmission flange 90° and rebolted (see #1). 4) Shake the engine vigorously Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. Go home. Well, put on your thinking cap and go BACK TO WORK because you did it wrong. Here's why: prop shaft motor/transmission shaft -------------------------------| |----------------------- Note how if they are indeed on the same centerline then the flanges will be parallel. But what if this is the case: (exagerated, of course due to interface limitiations) -----------------------------| |--------------------------------- Note how both shaft plates are parallel but they will BIND LIKE HELL when tightened together. I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Bruce" wrote in message
... Ah, the voice of the fool is heard thru the land. But my dear sir, it is far better to be a joke then a horse's arse. Says, "Bruce, stuck at a Bangkok Dock" for the past 25 years because he failed to complete his planned circumnavigation because he wasn't up to the task. Failing, no matter how lofty the goal, is still failing. It is far better to be a success at coastal cruising than a failure at world cruising. Tsk tsk! Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
I know you're better than that, Wilbur.
Don't prove me wrong :{)) On Sunday, September 9, 2012 6:03:10 PM UTC-4, Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message news:k2iqko$1dh$1@dont- [trim] So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my descriptions... This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange. 1) I left the bolts loose. Got it! Apparently not, because then you say... 2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of 360°). Got it! But how dumb is it to tighten down the bolts all the way and then attempt to insert a feeler gauge? Duh. There is enough power in a tightened down set of bolts to draw together flanges that ARE NOT PARALLEL. Can't you see this simple reality, Skippy? Thus. The nuts, in the entire alignment process, were never even on, let alone tightened, on the bolts. However, I exert a fair amount of pressure in pulling the shaft/coupling to the tranny, and it's solidly mated (well, not so much the tranny plate wouldn't move easily on each of the 4 instances I checked for each position, as well). Thus, the bolts were mere place holders for the tranny plate to not move as I rotated the unit (tranny and coupling, together) for each round of gauging. In fact, the bolts are STILL in without nuts, because I'll not only let it settle, I'll do the installation of the packing gland, adjusting slightly for the shaft's own weight, confirming that the bronze doesn't touch the shaft anywhere before putting on the packing nut, before checking the alignment, yet again. This time, if I get no opening in my 4 measurements, I'll not bother with rotating the tranny plate and doing it 4 times over. However, it may well have shifted sufficiently, including my allowance for the shaft weight being supported in the approximate center by the packing gland, by that time that I'll have to do it all again. In which case, see the preceding, which will be enhanced by all the contortions to do the fiddly adjustments. However, I was VERY pleased to see that all is sufficiently loose that it's no longer a wrestling match to make my adjustments... L8R, y'all Skip, off-center and off-line discussion from Wilbur redacted, as my coupling has a nipple centering it on the tranny for off-center, and the rest should be obvious to everyone else :{)) |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Bruce" wrote in message
... [trim] Hey STUPID! Read the message before you set out to amaze us with your knowledge (or lack thereof). The O.P. stated, "... but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine." Read it again, "WE'VE NOT YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE". Duh, aligning the engine is a necessary part of the process. Because Skippy has yet to do so does not mean that in order to align engine with propeller shaft that he will never be doing so. He has even described how difficult the engine bed alignment bolts were to reach and how he didn't have a wrench that fits well. That means Skippy is 'in the process' of aligning the engine in order to align the two shafts. Got it yet? HE HASN'T YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE, you ignorant fool. So you must be thinking that Skippy intends to never align the engine with the propeller shaft so both shafts will be on the same centerline when looked at both horizontally and vertically? How droll! Question. Does sweeping the floor and emptying the trash can constitute "help build"? Yes, it does. Irwin hired several women whose job it was to clean up the interior and exterior of the yachts while they were being built. The carpenters, for example, would never DREAM of cleaning up their sawdust. But, I was not a janitor. Now it is my turn to ask you, "CAN YOU READ?" as I plainly stated I worked as an MEP. This means I installed systems that included Mechanical (such as Yanmar engines) and air conditioners, sinks etc., Electrical, such as wiring, lighting, electric pumps, generators, distribution panels, etc.) and Plumbing such as pressure water systems, waste systems, fuel systems, etc. Of course these things you never do sitting for 25 years at the Bangkok dock. LOL! Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:28:27 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. === That's probably as good as it gets, at least for now. If you have something close to normal backstay tension it may not change much when you launch. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:49:41 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Bruce" wrote in message .. . [trim] Hey STUPID! Read the message before you set out to amaze us with your knowledge (or lack thereof). The O.P. stated, "... but not yet tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine." Read it again, "WE'VE NOT YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE". Duh, aligning the engine is a necessary part of the process. Because Skippy has yet to do so does not mean that in order to align engine with propeller shaft that he will never be doing so. He has even described how difficult the engine bed alignment bolts were to reach and how he didn't have a wrench that fits well. That means Skippy is 'in the process' of aligning the engine in order to align the two shafts. Got it yet? HE HASN'T YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE, you ignorant fool. So you must be thinking that Skippy intends to never align the engine with the propeller shaft so both shafts will be on the same centerline when looked at both horizontally and vertically? How droll! Question. Does sweeping the floor and emptying the trash can constitute "help build"? Yes, it does. Irwin hired several women whose job it was to clean up the interior and exterior of the yachts while they were being built. The carpenters, for example, would never DREAM of cleaning up their sawdust. But, I was not a janitor. Now it is my turn to ask you, "CAN YOU READ?" as I plainly stated I worked as an MEP. This means I installed systems that included Mechanical (such as Yanmar engines) and air conditioners, sinks etc., Electrical, such as wiring, lighting, electric pumps, generators, distribution panels, etc.) and Plumbing such as pressure water systems, waste systems, fuel systems, etc. Of course these things you never do sitting for 25 years at the Bangkok dock. LOL! Wilbur Hubbard Janitor? No one argues that you ever attained this lofty position. Goodness, being a janitor involves washing things and Dirty Willie has never bragged about that (and it is sure that if he ever had, be would have bragged about it). NO, according to other posters Dirty Willie's highest skill attainment consisted of reading a water meter. |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:17:30 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Bruce" wrote in message .. . Ah, the voice of the fool is heard thru the land. But my dear sir, it is far better to be a joke then a horse's arse. Says, "Bruce, stuck at a Bangkok Dock" for the past 25 years because he failed to complete his planned circumnavigation because he wasn't up to the task. Failing, no matter how lofty the goal, is still failing. It is far better to be a success at coastal cruising than a failure at world cruising. Tsk tsk! Wilbur Hubbard And what goal would that be? World Cruising? Never contemplated it. Sailing as a recreation? Been there, did that. Earning a living and supporting my wife and family, been there and done that too. So tell us Mr. Meter Reader, what have you done? |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:03:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message news:k2iqko$1dh$1@dont- [trim] So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my descriptions... This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange. 1) I left the bolts loose. Got it! 2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of 360°). Got it! But how dumb is it to tighten down the bolts all the way and then attempt to insert a feeler gauge? Duh. There is enough power in a tightened down set of bolts to draw together flanges that ARE NOT PARALLEL. Can't you see this simple reality, Skippy? Err.... Calling planet Willie-boy. He specifically stated that "I left the bolts loose" and never mentions tightening them. Apparently you don't read English well. I also noted that later in the thread he mentions "washing his hands", something I have never seen you claim to do. Sp apparently we have Skip the Clean and Dirty Willie. 3) I unbolted and rotated the transmission flange 90° and rebolted (see #1). 4) Shake the engine vigorously Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. Go home. Well, put on your thinking cap and go BACK TO WORK because you did it wrong. Here's why: prop shaft motor/transmission shaft -------------------------------| |----------------------- Note how if they are indeed on the same centerline then the flanges will be parallel. But what if this is the case: (exagerated, of course due to interface limitiations) -----------------------------| |--------------------------------- Note how both shaft plates are parallel but they will BIND LIKE HELL when tightened together. I hope this helps. Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:28:27 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. === That's probably as good as it gets, at least for now. If you have something close to normal backstay tension it may not change much when you launch. I doubt Bruce in Bangkok ever washed his hands after having had one (or several) of those Thai trannies in all four positions. Can you say "lady boy?" Hee hee hee!!!!!!!! Wilbur Hubbard |
Two steps forward, and one step - a huge one - back...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:57:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:28:27 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions. Wash and dry hands. === That's probably as good as it gets, at least for now. If you have something close to normal backstay tension it may not change much when you launch. I doubt Bruce in Bangkok ever washed his hands after having had one (or several) of those Thai trannies in all four positions. Can you say "lady boy?" Hee hee hee!!!!!!!! Wilbur Hubbard Nice try. Futile but an effort was made - 1 gold star. But actually having a wife, of some forty years, a son and two lovely grand kids, I'm fairly well satisfied. And Willie-boy has? someone said a rusted out van? |
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