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#1
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Troubleshooting 12/24 volt Danfoss BD compressors.
If compressor runs continuously with less than desirable or no cooling there is a refrigerant flow problem or loss of refrigerant or poor condenser cooling. If at least 90% of evaporator’s surface area is covered with a layer of frost no matter how thin refrigerant quality and volume are correct. To confirm compressor runs continuously remove thermostat wires from control module and place jumper wire across C and T control module terminals. If Danfoss compressor fails to run continuously this is caused 98% of the time by an electrical problem. There are two different series of Danfoss BD 12 volt compressors the older fixed speed and the newer variable speed . If the refrigeration unit is over 10 years old and has a Danfoss BD 2 or BD2.5 or BD3 compressor then it has the older fixed speed discontinued electronic 4 pin module. Troubleshooting Danfoss compressors with 4 pin modules consists of the following steps: 1. All of these compressors have a 4 pin module connector and their modules contain a replaceable fuse. If this fuse is blown there are two reasons why either power wires to module are reversed or module has an internal failure. 2. Check to see that there is actually power at the refrigerator control module. 3. Place jumper wire across thermostat terminals on electronic module, Compressor still does not run go to next step. 4. Disconnect black fan wire from electronic module, Compressor runs, replace fan. Compressor still does not run after fan ground wire is disconnected, go to next step. 5. Run correct size and correct polarity jumper wires direct from a fully charged battery in order to bypass all boat’s wiring. Volt meter readings are of no value when looking for voltage spikes. Compressor still does not run electronic module needs to be removed and tested on another unit. If there are no other units available to test your module on I will test all 12 volt Danfoss control modules free except for BD80 compressor modules. Email me for shipping address and details. Small 12/24 volt boat refrigeration units using Danfoss BD compressors manufactured after 1996 will have a BD 35 or BD 50 variable speed compressor with a troubleshooting computer chip built into control module. This circuit makes them easier to find troubled area if compressor fails to run. If this unit does not have this $2 LED install one. Without the LED on these new units troubleshooting will be the same as earlier 4 pin Danfoss BD compressors. Trouble shooting LED will only flash if electronic module sees a compressor problem. In each case problems of compressor’s failures to run are identified by counting number of flashes of LED: • No LED flashes would indicate either thermostat is open or no power to module. • One LED flash and a 4 second pause indicates a non Danfoss wiring electrical resistance problem or low batteries. Because of module’s sensitiveity to milliseconds of a voltage spike they cannot be detected by a voltmeter. Solution is to bypass power wiring till resistance problem is located. • Two LED flashes indicates fan over current cutout. If fan circuit on these variable speed compressors exceeds ½ amp compressor start up will be aborted. This condition can be confirmed by disconnecting Black fan wire at module, if compressor runs replace fan. • Three LED flashes indicate excessive torque is required to start compressor. This is commonly caused by turning compressor off and back on too quickly or too much refrigerant or poor condenser cooling. Most people jump to the conclusion that there is a mechanical rotor lock up inside compressor and this is a mistake on Danfoss BD compressors. • Four LED flashes indicate compressor motor not reaching sustained controlling speed above 1,850 rpm quick enough. If someone has tampered with refrigerant by connecting gauges to a system letting air in or adding too much refrigerant can cause either a Three or Four LED flashing signal. On water cooled Danfoss condenser systems three and four LED signals are common when seawater gets into refrigerant circuit. |
#2
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"Richard Kollmann" wrote in message
... Troubleshooting 12/24 volt Danfoss BD compressors. (snipped) Hi, Richard, and thanks for the note. I've been all through the Danfoss literature, and many sources of what you posted. At this point, I'm reasonably sure that I have a leak in the "yellow" line at the connection point, as the brass (copper?) part has what appears to be some oil on it. The compressor runs, but no cooling happens - the lines to and from the keel cooler as well as the compressor temperature are ambient. I have a friend with a vacuum pump and the necessary adapter (he sez) to attach a 134a can to my gauge set. However, I'm killing myself/going blind trying to figure out which of the connection points (as they're not labeled as such in the Danfoss literature, nearly everything related to a Bd50F and 101N0210 controller of which I believe I've read or looked at for diagrammatic help) to which to connect my gauges/supply line. Early on, we had a slight overcharge condition, likely due to the diligence of the installation (SALT, my vendor, told me that the systems/lines were slightly overcharged in production on the presumption that some would be lost during connection make-ups). SALT suggested I open the top to the line which is T'd into that yellow line, and cautiously vent a very little at a time until my line from the freezer no longer had ice on it. I did so, and all was well for some years, until just lately. New O-rings are on the way from them, but I've discovered a small plastic bag which I thought I'd remembered being attached to the compressor; it has three of what I presume are the same O-rings in it. Therefore, one way or the other, once I buy a can/dispenser setup, I think I should be ready to proceed to replace that O-ring, evacuate, and recharge. So, as I look at a keel-cooled Bd50F, 101n0210 controller with SSC attached, setup, with the factory controller on the left, there's a heat-shrunk seal on the top of the only other fitting I can see (there may be another in the rear; I've not taken off my protective box - plywood with umpteen holes in the top, and along the bottom sides, with the front, not likely to have any contact with anything, open - in the engine room, yet) on the left top. There's what I presume to be a capillary tube on the rear, which I also presume will have a connection to a line, but I can't see it, as above (if needed, I'll excavate the engine room to remove the box). It may have a connection point, too. So, can you tell me where to connect the high and low pressure lines, and where to connect the supply (new 134a), to check it, as well as where to connect the vacuum line before recharging? As well, should I be concerned about the few drops of apparent oil loss? Their info strongly cautions against charging with anything other than unadulterated 134a... Also, my SSC has a trouble icon. Does this function as the LED for blink-code information, would you know? Thanks for checking in! L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#3
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![]() Skip, Unfortunately all manufacturers of boat icebox conversion units have some items in their designs that cause unwanted problems. Pre- charged refrigerant lines have always come with O rings to prevent refrigerant loss during assembly. Ounce torque down a metal seal permanently prevents line connector leakage but Frigoboat relies on O ring seals only to retain refrigerant. There are many applications where O rings are used to prevent leaks. Now you are finding out why spare O rings come with new Frigoboat units and also why at boat shows they demonstrate how to change Orings. What you must find out for yourself is the difficulty in re-commissioning systems after replacing a refrigerant line O ring. When reliability and safety is demanded from O rings shelf life of new rings is limited to one year. I read on another forum where there was a discussion about replacing these Frigoboat O rings every five years. My guess is that only one out of ten refrigeration service technicians could add the correct amount of refrigerant to your system. Frigoboat’s refrigerant flow lines on keel cooler systems are simple. There are three lines connected to compressor two on dome top and one coming out of side. Line coming out of compressor’s side below welded dome goes to keel cooler. Line out of other side of keel cooler runs to evaporator. Return line from evaporator connects to one of the lines coming out of compressor dome. Other line out of compressor dome is short with the only refrigerant servicing connection on this system There are three line connectors with O rings and no high pressure servicing connection on a standard Frigoboat unit. Some installations have optional line extensions that add more line connectors. Yes there is a trouble shooting LED on the Smart Speed Control and it will only flash when electronic control module senses an electrical problem. Low cooling do to refrigerant loss will NOT trigger a signal from troubleshooting LED. |
#4
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Hi, Richard,
Thanks for the erudition and education! So, if I read your stuff (clipped for brevity) correctly, the left side nipple on the top of the dome is where I'd put new gas after evacuation. Is that also where I'd evacuate it? The one out of the side under the dome connects to the point which leaks, and has a T'd connection point on it. That's the one I was instructed early on to vent the slight overcharge from. I (think I) understand from your tutorial that there is no real means of the typical testing setup on my unit - no place to connect to high and low side - just for evacuation and gassinng? Thanks again for your assistance. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#5
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"Richard Kollmann" wrote in message
... Skip, Unfortunately all manufacturers of boat icebox conversion units have some items in their designs that cause unwanted problems. Pre- charged refrigerant lines have always come with O rings to prevent refrigerant loss during assembly. Ounce torque down a metal seal permanently prevents line connector leakage but Frigoboat relies on O ring seals only to retain refrigerant. There are many applications where O rings are used to prevent leaks. Now you are finding out why spare O rings come with new Frigoboat units and also why at boat shows they demonstrate how to change Orings. What you must find out for yourself is the difficulty in re-commissioning systems after replacing a refrigerant line O ring. When reliability and safety is demanded from O rings shelf life of new rings is limited to one year. I read on another forum where there was a discussion about replacing these Frigoboat O rings every five years. My guess is that only one out of ten refrigeration service technicians could add the correct amount of refrigerant to your system. ************ Hi, again, Richard, and list, Apparently, despite my not being a technician, let alone one in ten, I managed... The O-ring replacement was a non-event. Once the system was closed up again, I evacuated the system. From Frigoboat's "manual" online, " The suction side service valve normally will be on a stub of tubing that is connected directly to the top of the compressor. " That jibes with what you said, but everyone I spoke with in vendor or distributor level phone calls wanted me to have a tap on the low side line - there wasn't one, but the stub is apparently where Veco (the US distributor for Frigoboat) wants you to put the line connection - after repeated assurances in each call that there was no stub on the blue line, all agreed that the stub "would do" - you'd think the Veco folks would have been familiar with their own manual :{)) I ran a 6cfm pump for over 12 hours and removed it. Connected up my can (with the adapter which is scarcer than hen's teeth locally), to the R12 line I bought, purged it with a nice blast, and left a trickle coming out as I connected to the stub (to assure fully purged line, no possible moisture intrusion) and put in an initial charge, with the compressor off. Ran it for a couple of hours, and found the plates merely cool. Shut it down, waited for equalization, and added more. Based on the "cool line" on the can, I'd not put in nearly 6oz initially, the expected charge required. Run, check, it wasn't making full cold, yet, so I added a third shot, ditto on shutdown/equalization/restart. That showed promise, bringing the previously 85° boxes (6" extruded polystyrene covered in epoxy and gelcoat) down. Checking the exit line, there was a very small bit of ice, but the box wasn't down to temps yet, so I left it alone. Overnight, the boxes came to 8° (the freezer set point), and, just by spillover, as I'd unhooked the fan, 27° in the reefer. I had to stick my finger into the bulkhead hole to feel any ice, but it was there, right at the edge. I'll assume, until I load the boxes and get them down to temps, that my charge level is correct. Despite those temps, last night when it was still a few degrees over the set point, there wasn't frost on all the plate surface. However, an infrared thermometer showed the highest temp to be zero, and the rest ranged down to -21° with most of it in the -15 to -18 range. I concluded that to mean that it was adequately charged :{)) - but didn't know for sure that it wasn't slightly overcharged. This morning's feel for the ice on the return line suggests it's right on. The lack of frost everywhere, despite my small circulating fan in the freezer running, suggests I have the reefer door gasket difficulties resolved, as (I presume) there was very little moisture in the two spaces, starting from hot and wet air. And, despite my bragging on the keel cooler's amazing ability to dissipate heat in the air, I wrapped it in a wash rag, propped it on all 4 sides, and ran a trickle of water into it (enough that it dripped continuously). Initially, that water was VERY (not to burn, but notable) hot. As the box came down, it became less so. So, I'll leave that in place, as we're routinely over 90° here during the day, and only low 80s at night. All is well here. Thanks for your help! L8R Skip, off to fix dings in both doors -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#6
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Refrigerator:
Skip, Line coming out of BD50 compressor’s side is high pressure line, in warm seawater it would be the one that gets the hottest and may be why O ring failed in it. Hopefully compressor was not overheated as well. When failed O ring was removed I hope all pieces were accounted for. As you know your system has no filter or screen protecting expansion capillary tube inlet orifice in high pressure liquid side of system. Yes, the single service connection on top of compressor is where vacuum dehydration pump and recharge with 134a is accomplished. Rube Goldberg would give you an A+ for trying to complicate a simple process. Only time will tell if you dehydrated deep and long enough to be successful. On your system successful performance can only be when refrigerant volume and keel cooler condenser cooling are in balance as seawater temperatures and compressor speeds change. |
#7
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Kollmann" Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:28 AM Subject: Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem. Refrigerator: Skip, Line coming out of BD50 compressor’s side is high pressure line, in warm seawater it would be the one that gets the hottest and may be why O ring failed in it. Hopefully compressor was not overheated as well. When failed O ring was removed I hope all pieces were accounted for. As you know your system has no filter or screen protecting expansion capillary tube inlet orifice in high pressure liquid side of system. The O-ring came out nicely - just flat! (well, actually, on close review, a truncated right-angle cone ring) - no scars, and a brilliant metal where the new one landed immediately and was immediately inserted and tightened. Yes, the single service connection on top of compressor is where vacuum dehydration pump and recharge with 134a is accomplished. Rube Goldberg would give you an A+ for trying to complicate a simple process. :{)) When my vendor and Veco kept telling me that I should have a low-side tap, foolishly, I believed them. Reviewing the manual, and, of course referring to your earlier helpful comments, I stopped worrying about that. As to Rube Goldberg, if I'd known that the vacuum was an R12 fitting, I could have been sucking away much earlier. Getting the gas to the system would still have taken a bit longer due to the hens-teeth nature of the 134aF/12M fitting (everyone has the reverse). However, I'll acquire my own vacuum pump shortly, which will eliminate that problem, and we'll be good to go with my 134-only gauge set and can adapter/R12 hose. Only time will tell if you dehydrated deep and long enough to be successful. On your system successful performance can only be when refrigerant volume and keel cooler condenser cooling are in balance as seawater temperatures and compressor speeds change. Agreed. However, I suspect that a previously closed (and remaining closed due to the quick-connects) system, evacuated at 6cfm for 14 or whatever larger number of hours it was, likely pulled it about as far and dry as it could get absent some industrial-grade sucker. As I write, all the door repairs/improvements are finished, and, 12 hours into an 83° 10CF (total) box' cooling, I'm at 10.9 and 32.3 in the freezer and reefer, respectively, and no ice on the return line. I've left the charge line/can attached just in case I'm not absolutely perfectly charged, but the trial run suggests it's right on. I'll make that determination after a while of running at normal cycling vs full-time pull-down. My vendor, who'd been watching from the sidelines (the Boy Scout program in the Keys, where he's a charter captain in those months the program operates), including some emailed pix of what was going on, wrote after my last to say: "Congrats, You need to fill out a job app. for service technician now when you're ready to come out of retirement." He'd offered me a job when he came to look at the boat in Keys Boat Works just after the wreck, too; apparently, following your suggestions about box-building, including the doors (with carefully calculated swing radii to make sure of the angle I'd have to cut into them to allow opening, with all that depth) impressed him :{)) And, to my previous, my presumption had been that the circulating fan had been running. Turns out not so, as my reed switch had failed somewhere along the line, discovered during the redo of the power line to the LED cluster which comes on when the door's opened at the same time the fan switches off, and the reverse when closed. So, yesterday, before reassembly, I ordered new (one for spare) NO/NC switches, and put in a new fan, along with repairing the broken line on the LED cluster for the lighting. Once the switch arrives, it will be a 10-minute job to install it. Due to the now-constant 90+ temps here, I've also rigged something similar to, but much improved over, the setup to keep the keel cooler wet which I did in St. Pete during our wreck rehab. In our prior trial, the water running off it got cooler as it stabilized; I assume that will assist in my overall efforts at having cold beer for Lydia and coke for me, along with the first-in-many-days, cold eggs to break for our breakfast that I enjoyed feeling as I picked them up over the bowl this morning :{)) I believe this concludes all but chatter on this thread :{)) L8R Skip and crew, back to the old grind (first step to polish up the new weld/SS installation on the bow roller/cage system) -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
#8
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This started in the Shifting Sands thread; I've cc'd this to the
refrigeration discussion, as it's a bit afield from sanding :{)) Hi, and thanks to Wayne and Vic for enlightening me on stand-alone taps. I can buy them at anywhere from 6 to 20 bux. I do still have a problem about feeding the gauge set with it, as I have only 3 hoses with my set; indeed, connecting to the second end of the center line was my challenge. (The center has two males, one down, one out.) The connections for the high and low pressure lines have a common air hose connector - pull to allow/release ring - and a valve on them as well as on the gauges, a curiosity to me as to why that rather than a direct hose connection - but have the male open end on the hose-connect assembly/handle. All three hoses are open on one end, and valve depressor on the other. It was my recollection (it's been a while since I had to use one) that the refill kits one buys have a made-up fitting at the can end, not a screw-off, so I didn't twig to the possibility of a tap with just a male fitting coming out. I may have to buy a 4th hose (?) to make it work, or an adapter such as Neal's picture showed, however, without extra hardware left somewhere... As to the gas, it takes all of 6 ounces to fully charge our system, so hunting for bargains on cans isn't a high priority :{)) When we bought our car here and the AC failed after some work on other stuff, the mechanic who screwed it up claimed he'd put gauges on it and found no pressure (instead, the failure of the AC to run was his neglect of not putting on the high-temp alarm connection back on when he did some other work); I bought a can with a trigger and gauge; it read 150# (and was able to return it immediately from outside AutoZone where I'd tested it), so I knew he was full of ****. As to the WalMart can lead Neal provided, it has oil, and Danfoss is adamant about putting in nothing other than straight gas, so I'd get the one without, if I went that route for charging (still have the challenge of attaching the pop-on end, of course; perhaps I'd have to buy an adapter such as his boat pic showed for the other end of the ell-connection on the gauges - anyone have a name for that fitting? It would be one which screws onto a 134a tap, not a standard R12 [or, at least, the gauges suggest it's only for 134a, so I presume there's a difference]). Thanks again to all respondents. Tackling the handle seating in the freezer lid today - once again, it broke out, as there isn't enough wood at the lip to support the stress it endures, and the screws have stripped out more than once, the latest before the current having been resolved by using 5-minute double-tube syringe-type epoxy and shaping it with a chisel as it started to set. I'm thinking of using our fairing compound this time (epoxy 2-part mixup), as it will start setting at 4 hours, and be permanent in a day. When it's green, it works easily, but is rock hard in the end; I'd drill and tap, instead of using wood screws as in the priors. The 5-minute stuff wasn't rock hard when I went to remove the broken bits... Thanks for all the chime-ins. Even in this relatively limited forum (which I vastly prefer as it's NNTP based rather than web interface), I get what I come for! L8R Skip and crew -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
#9
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On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:11:16 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: I'm thinking of using our fairing compound this time (epoxy 2-part mixup), as it will start setting at 4 hours, and be permanent in a day. When it's green, it works easily, but is rock hard in the end; I'd drill and tap, instead of using wood screws as in the priors. The 5-minute stuff wasn't rock hard when I went to remove the broken bits... Fairing compound is not strong enough for that application. I've had good luck using J-B Weld which is a filled and thickened epoxy, very tough stuff, almost as strong as metal. It's easy to use and cures relatively quickly. I'm having a difficult time visualizing your issue with the hose and gauge set. A typical gauge set comes with three hoses: blue, red and yellow. Blue is for the low pressure side, red for high, and yellow is in the middle and goes to your can tap adapter or vacuum pump. The blue and red hoses may be terminated with either quick connects or female screw-on connectors. It sounds like your compressor is set up for quick connects but I can't be sure from your description. You need to get hoses which match the connectors on your compressor. You probably already know this but it's important to purge the air out of the hoses before filling your system. |
#10
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Hi, Wayne,
In case I've not said so before, I'm very appreciative of your (and others') thoughtful input... "Wayne B" wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:11:16 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: I'm thinking of using our fairing compound this time (epoxy 2-part mixup), as it will start setting at 4 hours, and be permanent in a day. When it's green, it works easily, but is rock hard in the end; I'd drill and tap, instead of using wood screws as in the priors. The 5-minute stuff wasn't rock hard when I went to remove the broken bits... Fairing compound is not strong enough for that application. I've had good luck using J-B Weld which is a filled and thickened epoxy, very tough stuff, almost as strong as metal. It's easy to use and cures relatively quickly. Another (the one with the vacuum pump and adapters I'll borrow, the same guy who's been here for 10 years in the interview thread) cruiser said the same, but recommended Cabosil. I think I like JB just for its simplicity. He also suggested a receiver for a machine screw bedded into it, which might lessen the likelihood of a recurrence. As I'll be adding some gasketing, and it's a top-load, without the "usual" lever-arm reefer latch (prevents a flat surface which we need on the countertop), it will take even more effort than it does currently to close. We have to set it, with the latch already depressed in the receiver lip, and give it a forceful whack with both fists to make it seat. The current failure was a matter of having something in the freezer preventing the latch from engaging the lip; whacking it put all the force on the tongue, forcing the lift which broke my earlier repair... I'm having a difficult time visualizing your issue with the hose and gauge set. A typical gauge set comes with three hoses: blue, red and yellow. Blue is for the low pressure side, red for high, and yellow is in the middle and goes to your can tap adapter or vacuum pump. The blue and red hoses may be terminated with either quick connects or female screw-on connectors. It sounds like your compressor is set up for quick connects but I can't be sure from your description. You need to get hoses which match the connectors on your compressor. I have those three; they are double-ended females, the open end goes on the gauge set and the schrader-depressor end on the compressor. My problem is getting the can connected to the yellow hose ell... You probably already know this but it's important to purge the air out of the hoses before filling your system. Yup - a brief squirt through them should accomplish that. My buddy's coming by today, so I should have the charging (or, if not, identified it as some other problem) done today... Thanks again. L8R Skip, with the new metal going on the bow roller cage today... -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
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