Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

Hi, all,

The plot thickens, of course - nothing seems simple with this
evacuation/recharge...

"Gogarty" wrote in message
...
How come Wilbur has not weighed in on this thread?

So far as I know the Danfoss compressors for marine fridges have only one
service port on the low side. When new it is sealed with a cap and black
gloop. Remove the gloop and the cap and you find an R34a-specific snap
coupling which mates to your vacuuum pump or charging manifold. I managed
to
set things up without a manifold or guages using a fitting that allows me
to
inject refrigerant directly into the low side port. You can vent excess
there
too with an Allen wrench pushing on the valve. Mine has been running
flawlessly (knock, knock) since I evacuated it and carefully injected
refrigerant using the frost line as a guide.


The gloop is a shrink-wrap. I had to slice it and peel it back from the R12
(!!) fitting on the high side when the factory installation charge was a bit
high (very careful about making up the joints, avoiding the factory-presumed
losses during that process) to vent it.

As Richard pointed out, there's a separate tap on the top left of the
compressor. VecoNA, the US distributor for Frigoboat, tells me that's ok to
use as a service port. I sliced that and removed the cap, only to find that
it was an R12 male, also.

Bob Williams, of SALT Service in Marathon, my vendor on installation (my own
box and installation), presumes there should be a low-side service port, but
visual (with a mirror, as it's under a low shelf with lots of stuff I'd have
to remove to be able to actually stick my head under there) and tactile
inspection shows the low side to not have a service port.

Perhaps the later versions have 134a taps; mine doesn't. I'm reluctant to
use the type of adapter Neal showed in his pic due to the inability to purge
the supply line. The slightest bit of moisture into the system can lead to
ice later; the folks I've been talking to, after they (all) reiterated that
nobody should try to do this on their own but having been convinced that
I'll do it, merely cautioned that the lines be fully purged. With an open
end, such as an R12 hose, vs the 134a air-hose type of snap-on, you just
open the valve a crack, let a bit out, and then close to a trickle while you
attach the cap before opening again to supply.

I've been able to find an adapter for the pump end which would convert a 12
pump to 134, but it doesn't have a Schrader depressor in them, preventing
use on the compressor. I'm hopeful of finding the same in 134-to-12, and
buy a 12 hose, but haven't yet, other than online, which will involve
shipping delay. My preference actually would be to have a hose fabricated,
but the only game in town is on vacation; I'd have to go either to Stuart or
Vero, assuming that hosemakers in one of those actually can do it. (My only
hose makeup experience was to make a new propane hose; I don't know if
they'd have the ends for AC/refrigeration...)

L8R, y'all

Skip, keeping a sharp eye on Emily - What are you doing about that, Neal?...


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are quite alone on a wide, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

Plot thickenings...

My vendor has confirmed that the open port (well, not connected to anything)
on the top of the compressor is suitable to use for low-side connection...

After 2 days on the phone and the internet, I was able to obtain an R12 hose
and an adapter to put it on 134a taps locally (the adapter was the
challenge - widely available on line, but hen's teeth locally).

Imagine my surprise when I went to connect the 6CFM vacuum that I'd borrowed
to my gauges set that it was an R12 fitting! So, I have no means of having
a gauge on it, but I am reasonably sure it is doing the job with the
directly connected vac hose. I turned on the vac before making the
connection to the stub on the top of the compressor to assure no possible
intake contamination.

As I write, it's finishing the 12-hour evacuation. I'll leave the vac
running as I unhook the line from the compressor to insure no contamination
from there.

Then I'll put on my adapter and purge the line with a second or so of blast,
shut it down and then open a trickle to insure nothing but 134a in the hose
while I connect it.

The manual suggests a 5-second charge initially. My intent is to leave the
hose and can connected, but shut, after that initial blast, and run the
compressor. If the plate isn't fully frosted, I'll turn off the compressor,
wait for equalization, and then introduce a second or so a time, rinse,
repeat, until the exit line is slightly frosted outside the box. Once that
happens, I'll let it run for a while to make sure that's as far as it gets.
Then I'll shut it down, let it equalize, and vent from the high side (as the
vendor instructed me during our initial use, when the line was frozen for a
few inches) a spritz at a time until the frost recedes to the bulkhead, and,
again, let it run for a while. If all is stable, I'll unhook.

My vendor sez to look for 5psi on the suction side while it's running. I'm
assuming I'd connect my 134a hose through the feed on the gauge set, thence
to the adapted R12 line to the stub, with the high side gauge closed, and
the suction line feed dead-ended (connected to the 134-style snap-on so no
contamination from a closed line), then open the closed-loop suction gauge
which would (?) see the pressure from the feed line series.

I'll acquire a much smaller pump for my own and should we ever have to face
this again, I'll have a proper suction reading as the new pumps will have
the 134a nipple.

So, I'm about to commence recharging. I'll post the results here, but
expect something similar to Vic's experience, in the end.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:19:28 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:



So, I'm about to commence recharging. I'll post the results here, but
expect something similar to Vic's experience, in the end.


Not sure which "experience" you mean.
But to clarify my experience, it's not extensive and only involves
fixing maybe 6 or 7 auto A/C's.
When an A/C stops putting out cold air I first assume a leak of
refrigerant.
The gauge set confirms that.
So far every time with R134a.
In the old days of R-12 I didn't have a gauge set and just injected
in R-12 until it blew cold.
If it lasted less than a summer I replaced the compressor.
No evacuation, just replace the compressor and charge with R-12.
Did that twice with 100% success..
R134a leaks faster - smaller molecules than R-12.
With the R134a I've always had a gauge set.
But I've found that published exact high and low side pressures are
somewhat meaningless.
Pressures can easily be off 10 psi on the low, and 20 on the high side
and the system works fine.
That might indicate something on some systems, but it never told me
anything on the automotive systems I've fixed.
The gauge set makes you feel like a "pro" and is real handy for the
manifold.
I've found that if you just add the specified weight of refrigerant
you're probably there.
I stop injecting after the weight spec is met.
Even that's not exact. For example my Chevy Lumina calls for 34
ounces. The cans I use are 12 Ounces.
So on the 3rd can I'm guessing.
What I do is use a temp probe in the vent, make sure the system has
stabilized to the lowest temp, and after about half of the last can
inject in 15 second intervals, watching the temp.
When it doesn't change I stop. But I always end up closer to 36
ounces than 34. I don't fret about that.
Likewise, before I bought a good evac pump, I didn't always bother
with evacuating either. Used an air-operated vac pump a few times
but they don't pump down as needed.
Never noticed anything untoward, but auto A/C's don't have the long
lifetimes expected of boat and home A/C's.
Cars die pretty quickly, especially when they're 6-10 years old when
you buy them, which is what I do.
So far none of my A/C fixes have gone more than 6-7 years before I
junked the car/van.
The main advice I have is to refill with a dye.
If you leaked the refrigerant you need to find the leak.
I do maintain one car with 134a that just needs a can added every
couple years, but that's the only one I've seen like that.
And I don't expect to have that car much longer.
All the others have lost their charge much more quickly so I've
learned to just put the dye in and find the leak.
For me it's usually been compressor seals. One time dryer o-rings
that weren't rated for R134a, and twice condensers.
Luckily no evaporators.
From your descriptions, unlike a car, the parts that might leak are
hard to get at, and the system is different than an auto's.
Bottom line is R134a dye and a good UV light has *always* worked
for me to get at the heart of the problem.
But I've had it easy, and can't tell what you face from here.
Good luck and keep us posted!

--Vic

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:19:28 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:



So, I'm about to commence recharging. I'll post the results here, but
expect something similar to Vic's experience, in the end.


Not sure which "experience" you mean. (clip)

My apologies. It must have been in some other venue such as the Morgan or
Liveaboard lists, or I dreamed it. I'd thought you'd posted that you'd done
essentially what I'll be doing next, feeling for frost or ice on the exit
line, and either adding slightly or spritzing out for slight overcharge.

As I type, the freezer's at 26 or a tenth higher, and there's a TINY (2")
amount of ice in the return line insulation. Until it gets down to temp
(8°), I'll not worry about it. So far, very good, however. No oil at the
high pressure line - the replacement of the O-ring was a non-event. Piece of
cake. I'm assuming the system will be stabilized by tomorrow morning and I
can get on with redoing some very small spots on the inner sides of the
doors (dings) and GO SHOPPING!

Of course, I'll just turn the system back off, put my engine room back
together, and do my repairs before bringing it back to cold!

L8R

Skip



--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:19:28 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:



So, I'm about to commence recharging. I'll post the results here, but
expect something similar to Vic's experience, in the end.


Not sure which "experience" you mean. (clip)

My apologies. It must have been in some other venue such as the Morgan or
Liveaboard lists, or I dreamed it. I'd thought you'd posted that you'd
done essentially what I'll be doing next, feeling for frost or ice on the
exit line, and either adding slightly or spritzing out for slight
overcharge.

As I type, the freezer's at 26 or a tenth higher, and there's a TINY (2")
amount of ice in the return line insulation. Until it gets down to temp
(8°), I'll not worry about it. So far, very good, however. No oil at the
high pressure line - the replacement of the O-ring was a non-event. Piece
of cake. I'm assuming the system will be stabilized by tomorrow morning
and I can get on with redoing some very small spots on the inner sides of
the doors (dings) and GO SHOPPING!

Of course, I'll just turn the system back off, put my engine room back
together, and do my repairs before bringing it back to cold!



I'm surprised you even bothered fixing it. After all, you could have gone to
a yard sale and gotten a kitchen refrigerator and just set it up under the
boat and plugged it into the shore power. A good used home refrigerator
would most likely last you the 10-12 years you're likely to remain at that
yard. LOL!


Wilbur Hubbard

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

"Richard Kollmann" wrote in message
...

Skip, Unfortunately all manufacturers of boat icebox conversion units
have some items in their designs that cause unwanted problems. Pre-
charged refrigerant lines have always come with O rings to prevent
refrigerant loss during assembly. Ounce torque down a metal seal
permanently prevents line connector leakage but Frigoboat relies on O
ring seals only to retain refrigerant. There are many applications
where O rings are used to prevent leaks. Now you are finding out why
spare O rings come with new Frigoboat units and also why at boat shows
they demonstrate how to change Orings. What you must find out for
yourself is the difficulty in re-commissioning systems after replacing
a refrigerant line O ring. When reliability and safety is demanded
from O rings shelf life of new rings is limited to one year. I read on
another forum where there was a discussion about replacing these
Frigoboat O rings every five years. My guess is that only one out of
ten refrigeration service technicians could add the correct amount of
refrigerant to your system.

************
Hi, again, Richard, and list,

Apparently, despite my not being a technician, let alone one in ten, I
managed...

The O-ring replacement was a non-event. Once the system was closed up
again, I evacuated the system. From Frigoboat's "manual" online, " The
suction side service valve normally will be on a stub of tubing that is
connected directly to the top of the compressor. "

That jibes with what you said, but everyone I spoke with in vendor or
distributor level phone calls wanted me to have a tap on the low side line -
there wasn't one, but the stub is apparently where Veco (the US distributor
for Frigoboat) wants you to put the line connection - after repeated
assurances in each call that there was no stub on the blue line, all agreed
that the stub "would do" - you'd think the Veco folks would have been
familiar with their own manual :{))

I ran a 6cfm pump for over 12 hours and removed it. Connected up my can
(with the adapter which is scarcer than hen's teeth locally), to the R12
line I bought, purged it with a nice blast, and left a trickle coming out as
I connected to the stub (to assure fully purged line, no possible moisture
intrusion) and put in an initial charge, with the compressor off.

Ran it for a couple of hours, and found the plates merely cool. Shut it
down, waited for equalization, and added more. Based on the "cool line" on
the can, I'd not put in nearly 6oz initially, the expected charge required.

Run, check, it wasn't making full cold, yet, so I added a third shot, ditto
on shutdown/equalization/restart.

That showed promise, bringing the previously 85° boxes (6" extruded
polystyrene covered in epoxy and gelcoat) down. Checking the exit line,
there was a very small bit of ice, but the box wasn't down to temps yet, so
I left it alone.

Overnight, the boxes came to 8° (the freezer set point), and, just by
spillover, as I'd unhooked the fan, 27° in the reefer. I had to stick my
finger into the bulkhead hole to feel any ice, but it was there, right at
the edge. I'll assume, until I load the boxes and get them down to temps,
that my charge level is correct.

Despite those temps, last night when it was still a few degrees over the set
point, there wasn't frost on all the plate surface. However, an infrared
thermometer showed the highest temp to be zero, and the rest ranged down
to -21° with most of it in the -15 to -18 range. I concluded that to mean
that it was adequately charged :{)) - but didn't know for sure that it
wasn't slightly overcharged. This morning's feel for the ice on the return
line suggests it's right on. The lack of frost everywhere, despite my small
circulating fan in the freezer running, suggests I have the reefer door
gasket difficulties resolved, as (I presume) there was very little moisture
in the two spaces, starting from hot and wet air.

And, despite my bragging on the keel cooler's amazing ability to dissipate
heat in the air, I wrapped it in a wash rag, propped it on all 4 sides, and
ran a trickle of water into it (enough that it dripped continuously).
Initially, that water was VERY (not to burn, but notable) hot. As the box
came down, it became less so.

So, I'll leave that in place, as we're routinely over 90° here during the
day, and only low 80s at night.

All is well here. Thanks for your help!

L8R

Skip, off to fix dings in both doors

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

Refrigerator:
Skip, Line coming out of BD50 compressor’s side is high pressure
line, in warm seawater it would be the one that gets the hottest and
may be why O ring failed in it. Hopefully compressor was not
overheated as well. When failed O ring was removed I hope all pieces
were accounted for. As you know your system has no filter or screen
protecting expansion capillary tube inlet orifice in high pressure
liquid side of system.
Yes, the single service connection on top of compressor is where
vacuum dehydration pump and recharge with 134a is accomplished. Rube
Goldberg would give you an A+ for trying to complicate a simple
process. Only time will tell if you dehydrated deep and long enough to
be successful. On your system successful performance can only be when
refrigerant volume and keel cooler condenser cooling are in balance as
seawater temperatures and compressor speeds change.

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Kollmann"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:28 AM
Subject: Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.


Refrigerator:
Skip, Line coming out of BD50 compressor’s side is high pressure
line, in warm seawater it would be the one that gets the hottest and
may be why O ring failed in it. Hopefully compressor was not
overheated as well. When failed O ring was removed I hope all pieces
were accounted for. As you know your system has no filter or screen
protecting expansion capillary tube inlet orifice in high pressure
liquid side of system.

The O-ring came out nicely - just flat! (well, actually, on close review, a
truncated right-angle cone ring) - no scars, and a brilliant metal where the
new one landed immediately and was immediately inserted and tightened.

Yes, the single service connection on top of compressor is where
vacuum dehydration pump and recharge with 134a is accomplished. Rube
Goldberg would give you an A+ for trying to complicate a simple
process.

:{)) When my vendor and Veco kept telling me that I should have a low-side
tap, foolishly, I believed them. Reviewing the manual, and, of course
referring to your earlier helpful comments, I stopped worrying about that.

As to Rube Goldberg, if I'd known that the vacuum was an R12 fitting, I
could have been sucking away much earlier. Getting the gas to the system
would still have taken a bit longer due to the hens-teeth nature of the
134aF/12M fitting (everyone has the reverse).

However, I'll acquire my own vacuum pump shortly, which will eliminate that
problem, and we'll be good to go with my 134-only gauge set and can
adapter/R12 hose.

Only time will tell if you dehydrated deep and long enough to
be successful. On your system successful performance can only be when
refrigerant volume and keel cooler condenser cooling are in balance as
seawater temperatures and compressor speeds change.


Agreed. However, I suspect that a previously closed (and remaining closed
due to the quick-connects) system, evacuated at 6cfm for 14 or whatever
larger number of hours it was, likely pulled it about as far and dry as it
could get absent some industrial-grade sucker.

As I write, all the door repairs/improvements are finished, and, 12 hours
into an 83° 10CF (total) box' cooling, I'm at 10.9 and 32.3 in the freezer
and reefer, respectively, and no ice on the return line. I've left the
charge line/can attached just in case I'm not absolutely perfectly charged,
but the trial run suggests it's right on. I'll make that determination
after a while of running at normal cycling vs full-time pull-down.

My vendor, who'd been watching from the sidelines (the Boy Scout program in
the Keys, where he's a charter captain in those months the program
operates), including some emailed pix of what was going on, wrote after my
last to say:

"Congrats,
You need to fill out a job app. for service technician now when you're
ready to come out of retirement."

He'd offered me a job when he came to look at the boat in Keys Boat Works
just after the wreck, too; apparently, following your suggestions about
box-building, including the doors (with carefully calculated swing radii to
make sure of the angle I'd have to cut into them to allow opening, with all
that depth) impressed him :{))

And, to my previous, my presumption had been that the circulating fan had
been running. Turns out not so, as my reed switch had failed somewhere
along the line, discovered during the redo of the power line to the LED
cluster which comes on when the door's opened at the same time the fan
switches off, and the reverse when closed. So, yesterday, before
reassembly, I ordered new (one for spare) NO/NC switches, and put in a new
fan, along with repairing the broken line on the LED cluster for the
lighting. Once the switch arrives, it will be a 10-minute job to install
it.

Due to the now-constant 90+ temps here, I've also rigged something similar
to, but much improved over, the setup to keep the keel cooler wet which I
did in St. Pete during our wreck rehab. In our prior trial, the water
running off it got cooler as it stabilized; I assume that will assist in my
overall efforts at having cold beer for Lydia and coke for me, along with
the first-in-many-days, cold eggs to break for our breakfast that I enjoyed
feeling as I picked them up over the bowl this morning :{))

I believe this concludes all but chatter on this thread :{))

L8R

Skip and crew, back to the old grind (first step to polish up the new
weld/SS installation on the bow roller/cage system)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Skip, this may help with refrigerator problem.
 

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...

big trim

Due to the now-constant 90+ temps here, I've also rigged something similar
to, but much improved over, the setup to keep the keel cooler wet which I
did in St. Pete during our wreck rehab. In our prior trial, the water
running off it got cooler as it stabilized; I assume that will assist in
my overall efforts at having cold beer for Lydia and coke for me, along
with the first-in-many-days, cold eggs to break for our breakfast that I
enjoyed feeling as I picked them up over the bowl this morning :{))


That was a smart move, Skippy. Keeping the condenser water-cooled is how it
is intended to operate. Having no such method of cooling and relying on air
temperatures alone causes they system to operate harder, longer and with
more stress on all components. The excess heat was probably responsible for
the failed o-ring.

"Cold beer for Lydia and a coke for me"????? C'mon, Skippy, man up and have
a beer.

Wilbur Hubbard