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Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:
Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****. Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks. |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
"Harryk" wrote in message
... Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****. Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks. Another used boat to avoid is one sold with the caveat - fresh bottom - new barrier coat. LOL! That means the blisters will be soon popping up AGAIN. Especially with this new poppycock about spraying the hull a few times to get rid of the trapped osmotic fluids. ROFLOL! Wilbur Hubbard |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do with a pressure gradient. You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a boat's bottom. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own ignorance yet again. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
On Apr 19, 12:56*pm, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Okay that is a layman's undertaning but you got the main idea. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when this is not a fact these are abstract equiviacal words. In other words this is an opinion not a fact. pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. That is absolutly true. All here will agree including Skip, Buce, and myself. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis This is true also. NBow lets see if you udnerstand what happens when you take a boat out of the water :) = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Here you start to miss the boat. In other words you have a significant fact chunk missing. Now, to the crux of the matter which is .................. how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' Yes this is a very imprortant step in the process. There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. Okay and where does this "moisture' go? Oh. by the way it is not water ie moisture. it is a chemical. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur Yes, but you need to do something several times a day for the first week on the hard. And prey tell what is that my uninformed? and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. the hull will not "dry" if all you do is stand and watch it. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. God Damn,,, you are a ****ing idiot Willbur Bob |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that
has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. Its not such a biggy if you have an old boat with 1 1/2 inches of hand layed glass at the turn of the bilge and twice that PLUS on the way down to the keel. Think Westsail or Freya :) Bob |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400, Harryk
wrote: Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****. Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks. Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's gone all soggy? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400, wrote: Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****. Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks. Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's gone all soggy? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Perhaps. I'm amazed balsa is still being used as a coring material in new boats, even expensive new boats. |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:38:56 -0400, Harryk
wrote: Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:32:32 -0400, wrote: Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard The best way to avoid the osmotic problem is not to buy a used boat that has it, and to carefully research its appearance in brand names of new boats. I loved how those selling boats and boat brokers used to say, and perhaps still say, "it's just osmotic blistering' it's not a big deal." Bull****. Oh...balsa deck underlay. No thanks. Is that what is wrong with Willie-boy? He's got a balsa core and it's gone all soggy? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Perhaps. I'm amazed balsa is still being used as a coring material in new boats, even expensive new boats. Cheap. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do with a pressure gradient. You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a boat's bottom. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own ignorance yet again. Bruce, You are the one exhibiting ignorance. You seem to be suggesting that the hull 'absorbing' water is what causes the blisters. ROFLOL! That's IMPOSSIBLE. The blisters MUST be caused by higher pressures inside the laminate than outside the laminate or the blister would not raise its ugly head against the outside pressure. If all it involved was water absorption then the pressures would be equalized. The osmosis comes into play because the higher density of the chemicals in the laminate on one side of the membrane causes osmotic action between the chemicals and the water outside. The water passes through the membrane and tries to dilute the chemicals to the same density as the sea water. This increases the pressure on the inside of the membrane until a blister pops up. Try to understand what osmosis actually entails, Rube! Freaking morons, I have to deal with around here. Absolutely NO concepts of basic physics. No wonder most all of them have failed as sailors. Wilbur Hubbard |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
"Bob" wrote in message
... On Apr 19, 12:56 pm, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Okay that is a layman's undertaning but you got the main idea. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when :: :: this is not a fact these are abstract equiviacal words. In other words :: this is an opinion not a fact. That's a matter of semantics, Bob. When something takes years I define that as a slow process. If you, on the other hand, wish to view in geological terms then it is, indeed, a fast process. In other words, stop quibbling. pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. :: :: That is absolutly true. All here will agree including Skip, Buce, and :: myself. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis :: :: This is true also. NBow lets see if you udnerstand what happens when :: you take a boat out of the water :) = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. :: :: Here you start to miss the boat. In other words you have a significant :: fact chunk missing. And, just what that be and why didn't you say what it is? Now, to the crux of the matter which is .................. how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' :: :: Yes this is a very imprortant step in the process. :: There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. :: :: Okay and where does this "moisture' go? Oh. by the way it is not water :: ie moisture. it is a chemical. The chemical was created by mixing water with a thicker version of the chemical. It is not an irreversible process that goes only one way. The water in the chemical can evaporate away leaving behind the thicker version of the chemical which is part of the lay-up process. The extended drying process allows the watermolecules to diffuse through the laminate and evaporate at the outer surface of the hull which is stored in a low-humidity environment to speed up the evaporation process which, in turn, speeds up the diffusion process. What osmosis brought in diffusion allows back out - the water. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur :: :: Yes, but you need to do something several times a day for the first :: week on the hard. And prey tell what is that my uninformed? You don't have to do a freaking thing other than store the boat in a low humidity environment. The pressure wash in the slings will be plenty enough to remove bottom growth and salt residue that might attract moisture and slow down the evaporation process. Spraying it repeatedly is nonsensical. and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. :: :: the hull will not "dry" if all you do is stand and watch it. :: That's where you totally incorrect. When stored in a low humidity environment the hull has NO CHOICE but to dry out because of the laws of physics. It doesn't matter one iota if anybody is watching it or not. It will happen even if everybody on the Earth were to drop dead. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. :: :: God Damn,,, you are a ****ing idiot Willbur :: Bob No, you are and I just proved why you are. You, like the other mental deficient's in this group, have a very incomplete understanding of basic physical processes. Now, run along and bash Joe. He's more your speed as he's too stupid to defend himself, unlike yours truly. Wilbur Hubbard |
Ping: All You So-Called Osmosis Experts!
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:12:06 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:56:31 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." wrote: Fact: It takes a pressure gradient on a membrane in order for osmosis to occur. Fact: A blistered bottom is the result of untold hours of this pressure gradient. Sometimes it takes years of submersion which creates the pressure gradient for blisters to occur. Osmosis is a relatively slow process when pressure differentials on either side of a membrane are not great. Fact: Spraying the blistered bottom repeatedly with fresh water does NOT create osmosis as there is no pressure gradient. Fact: No pressure gradient = no osmosis = surface wetness only = no penetration into soggy laminate. Fact: No penetration = wishful thinking and NO effect upon reducing the moisture in the soggy laminate that combines with layup chemicals. Now, to the crux of the matter which is how to remove the moisture from the laminate before coating the bottom with an impermeable 'barrier coat.' There is only one way to accomplish this drying process and that is not by osmosis but by diffusion through the membrane and evaporation of the moisture at the surface of the membrane. This process involves storing the soggy layup in a low-humidity environment for a year or two so diffusion and evaporation can occur and the hull can be tested with a moisture meter until it reaches acceptable levels. I welcome any rational, enlightened explanation of how spraying the hull with water can possibly negate or supersede the above facts. Wilbur Hubbard You are making a fundamental error in assuming that osmosis is what is happening to a boat hull. It isn't. The hull is absorbing water which combines with residual chemicals in the laminate and has nothing to do with a pressure gradient. You can explain membrane osmosis until the cows come home and you are still wrong as it is not the same process that causes blisters on a boat's bottom. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, you are exhibiting your own ignorance yet again. Bruce, You are the one exhibiting ignorance. You seem to be suggesting that the hull 'absorbing' water is what causes the blisters. ROFLOL! That's IMPOSSIBLE. The blisters MUST be caused by higher pressures inside the laminate than outside the laminate or the blister would not raise its ugly head against the outside pressure. If all it involved was water absorption then the pressures would be equalized. The osmosis comes into play because the higher density of the chemicals in the laminate on one side of the membrane causes osmotic action between the chemicals and the water outside. The water passes through the membrane and tries to dilute the chemicals to the same density as the sea water. This increases the pressure on the inside of the membrane until a blister pops up. Try to understand what osmosis actually entails, Rube! Freaking morons, I have to deal with around here. Absolutely NO concepts of basic physics. No wonder most all of them have failed as sailors. Wilbur Hubbard Willie-boy you are not only ignorant of what is called osmosis in describing boats hulls but you are also proving that you are too stupid to learn as the information is there, all you've got to do is read. I have no intention of providing you with an education, assuming that you are intelligent enough to learn, but if you google "boat+osmosis" or any similar words you will find a multitude information. But I'll give you the first pointer: try http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/osmosis%20testing.htm in which the author says: "Polyester resin is hygroscopic, it can absorb water. A typical 30' , uncored sailboat hull can absorb about 30lbs. of water or roughly 3% maximum weight of the laminate." And goes on to explain how this absorbed water combines with partially cured components of the original laminate to produce a mixture that is of greater volume then either of the separate components. In other words polyester laminates aren't waterproof, they absorb water, just like a stick of wood albeit a bit slower. Ever see blisters on a wooden hull? Your description of "osmosis" in boat hulls is ridiculous and totally wrong as you have interpreted osmosis when applied to a hull as meaning the same thing as osmosis when applied to filter systems apparently not knowing that the term as applied to a fiberglass hull was just another example of people using words that sound impressive to describe things in order to impress other ignorant people (and in the process pocket a lot of money). Try pressurizing your reverse osmosis watermaker - water passes through the membrane leaving the salt behind just as you describe the hull. Now raise the pressure ion the other side of the membrane to a pressure higher then the incoming water (must be higher you say in order to cause bumps) and what happens? Why, the water flow is reversed and flows from the outlet side to the inlet side. If the hull is, as you say, having water rammed up its ass by some mystical pressure gradient and mixing with chemicals that make it get bigger then why isn't it simply flowing back to the, now, lower pressure side. As I have so often said, Willie-boy, if you'd just keep your mouth shut people might wonder if you are a fool but you don't. You insist in speaking and proving for all to see that you are in truth a raving idiot. As you say, no concept of basic physics. (nor anything else) Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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