Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v. What I most want to know is what type of 19" HD flat screen
uses the least power (LCD?) and what is the rating on the TV to look for
to find the lowest power one. And yes, cost is a major factor. I do have
shore power at times, but would like to be able to use it on the hook.

And for those of you who insist upon philosophy of life with your
cruising. Yes, I am a real cruiser some times. No I am not a purist. Why
should I be? Purism is usually stupid. Along with being a cruiser, I am
a sports fan, a news junkie, a conversationalist, a poker player, an
explorer, a reader of literature, and about fifty other things. Why
restrict my world?

I would no more insist upon only cruising while cruising than I would
insist upon not reading while sitting on the ****ter, so as to be a more
pure ****ter. Stupid idea.

So, HDTV flat screen recommendations anyone?

Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v. What I most want to know is what type of 19" HD flat screen
uses the least power (LCD?) and what is the rating on the TV to look for
to find the lowest power one. And yes, cost is a major factor. I do have
shore power at times, but would like to be able to use it on the hook.

And for those of you who insist upon philosophy of life with your
cruising. Yes, I am a real cruiser some times. No I am not a purist. Why
should I be? Purism is usually stupid. Along with being a cruiser, I am
a sports fan, a news junkie, a conversationalist, a poker player, an
explorer, a reader of literature, and about fifty other things. Why
restrict my world?

I would no more insist upon only cruising while cruising than I would
insist upon not reading while sitting on the ****ter, so as to be a more
pure ****ter. Stupid idea.

So, HDTV flat screen recommendations anyone?

Stephen

Free advice is worth what you pay for it, but here goes from a long
time, full time cruiser (ex) and EE....

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current. Get a smaller one - we
used a 350 W which ran the 16" Panasonic TV, Magnavox DVD recorder,
Motorola Digital converter (for the DVD) and sometimes when the
Admiral would forget, a 60W lightbulb.

Look on the nameplate of the TV (sometimes it's also on the box) for
something like "0.9A" or "100W". A - Amps, W = Watts. Naturally the
lower the number the better.

A rule of thumb is that whatever Watts is listed divided by 10 = the
number of Amps drawn from the batteries. If the power is given in
Amps, multiply by 120 first. This takes into consideration the
efficiency and idle current draw of the inverter. Usually the Amps
will be less, probably because inverters are better now.

Hope this helps!

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v.

I'm not sure what you mean about making it into 12 volts.

We have a 2000 watt sine wave inverter/charger and it runs a 30 inch
HD flat screen just fine. Our house batts driving the inverter have
about 1000 amp-hours of capacity which is more than enough for an
evening of watching DVDs, running a couple of small fridge/freezers,
and several laptops.

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On 10/12/2010 12:54 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v.

I'm not sure what you mean about making it into 12 volts.

Sorry, what I meant was that I presume there is no way to make an HDTV
run off 12v without an inverter.


Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On 10/12/2010 11:18 AM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v. What I most want to know is what type of 19" HD flat screen
uses the least power (LCD?) and what is the rating on the TV to look for
to find the lowest power one. And yes, cost is a major factor. I do have
shore power at times, but would like to be able to use it on the hook.

And for those of you who insist upon philosophy of life with your
cruising. Yes, I am a real cruiser some times. No I am not a purist. Why
should I be? Purism is usually stupid. Along with being a cruiser, I am
a sports fan, a news junkie, a conversationalist, a poker player, an
explorer, a reader of literature, and about fifty other things. Why
restrict my world?

I would no more insist upon only cruising while cruising than I would
insist upon not reading while sitting on the ****ter, so as to be a more
pure ****ter. Stupid idea.

So, HDTV flat screen recommendations anyone?

Stephen

Free advice is worth what you pay for it, but here goes from a long
time, full time cruiser (ex) and EE....

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Get a smaller one - we
used a 350 W which ran the 16" Panasonic TV, Magnavox DVD recorder,
Motorola Digital converter (for the DVD) and sometimes when the
Admiral would forget, a 60W lightbulb.

Look on the nameplate of the TV (sometimes it's also on the box) for
something like "0.9A" or "100W". A - Amps, W = Watts. Naturally the
lower the number the better.

A rule of thumb is that whatever Watts is listed divided by 10 = the
number of Amps drawn from the batteries. If the power is given in
Amps, multiply by 120 first. This takes into consideration the
efficiency and idle current draw of the inverter. Usually the Amps
will be less, probably because inverters are better now.

Hope this helps!

Yes it did. Thanks.

Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
snip ravings of a pretender who's a TV addict and a moron because of it
So, HDTV flat screen recommendations anyone?

Stephen




If you think a 19-inch, flat screen TV has anything to do with cruising
you're delusional. But, then again, what addicted TV watcher isn't
delusional.


Wilbur Hubbard

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2010 12:54 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v.

I'm not sure what you mean about making it into 12 volts.

Sorry, what I meant was that I presume there is no way to make an HDTV run
off 12v without an inverter.


Stephen



Watching all those many hours of brain-numbing television has sure killed
way too many of your few remaining brain cells.

Go to an electronics store and look at some 19-inch TVs you'll find many
that have a little, plug-in power brick that outputs at 12volts. Duh!

Buy one of those and further destroy your brain vegetating in front of the
tube if you don't want the inefficiency of inverting from 12volts DC to 120
volts AC and then right back to 12VDC.

Sheesh!

Wilbur Hubbard

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.
What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Rick



Basically, size the inverter to the load.



--

Richard Lamb

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v.

I'm not sure what you mean about making it into 12 volts.

We have a 2000 watt sine wave inverter/charger and it runs a 30 inch
HD flat screen just fine. Our house batts driving the inverter have
about 1000 amp-hours of capacity which is more than enough for an
evening of watching DVDs, running a couple of small fridge/freezers,
and several laptops.



Wilbur is gonna get you, Wayne!


--

Richard Lamb

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:25:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
On 10/12/2010 12:54 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:02:56 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

I have a 1500w inverter. I presume there is no way to make the thing
into 12v.

I'm not sure what you mean about making it into 12 volts.

Sorry, what I meant was that I presume there is no way to make an HDTV run
off 12v without an inverter.


Stephen



Watching all those many hours of brain-numbing television has sure killed
way too many of your few remaining brain cells.

Go to an electronics store and look at some 19-inch TVs you'll find many
that have a little, plug-in power brick that outputs at 12volts. Duh!

Buy one of those and further destroy your brain vegetating in front of the
tube if you don't want the inefficiency of inverting from 12volts DC to 120
volts AC and then right back to 12VDC.

Sheesh!

Wilbur Hubbard


If watching TV is killing his brain cells and you seem to imply that
you don't watch TV, what do you attribute your problems to?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:22:12 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
snip ravings of a pretender who's a TV addict and a moron because of it
So, HDTV flat screen recommendations anyone?

Stephen




If you think a 19-inch, flat screen TV has anything to do with cruising
you're delusional. But, then again, what addicted TV watcher isn't
delusional.


Wilbur Hubbard


What does hanging on an anchor and expounding on how a real sailor
lives have to do with cruising?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On 10/12/2010 3:30 PM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

I have two 6v golf cart batteries as a house bank. 500 total amp hours?
I forget. H33. Primarily long weekends use. I just want to be able to
hang on the hook on weekends once in a while without shore power.

I think what you are saying is that if I get a second, smaller inverter
(which probably come pretty cheap nowadays) it will use far less amps to
power the TV and even have some to spare for a DVR. Have I got that right?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Ah. So I probably can't just find a cheap one with a 12v power brick
(presumably I tear off the brick) as Wilbur suggests?

Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:15:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

On 10/12/2010 3:30 PM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

I have two 6v golf cart batteries as a house bank. 500 total amp hours?
I forget. H33. Primarily long weekends use. I just want to be able to
hang on the hook on weekends once in a while without shore power.

I think what you are saying is that if I get a second, smaller inverter
(which probably come pretty cheap nowadays) it will use far less amps to
power the TV and even have some to spare for a DVR. Have I got that right?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Ah. So I probably can't just find a cheap one with a 12v power brick
(presumably I tear off the brick) as Wilbur suggests?

Stephen

It really depends on what you are powering. If only lights and TV then
certainly you should be able to get a couple of days use out of them.

The thing about inverters is that they aren't all equally as
efficient. Some require more power to create a specific amount of A.C.
than others, and usually the smaller, cheaper models are the less
efficient.

By the way, how big are these "6 v golf cart batteries" that give you
500 amp-hours? The usual 6 volt golf cart battery is the T-105 that is
rated at 225 amp-hours and wiring two in series to get 12 VDC results
in 225 amp-hours capacity. 4 wired series parallel gives 450
amp-hours.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:30:09 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

By the way, how big are these "6 v golf cart batteries" that give you
500 amp-hours? The usual 6 volt golf cart battery is the T-105 that is
rated at 225 amp-hours and wiring two in series to get 12 VDC results
in 225 amp-hours capacity. 4 wired series parallel gives 450
amp-hours.

You can get 260 A-H with a pair of T-145s but that's about as good as
it gets.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...q=trojan+t-145

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On 10/13/2010 5:30 PM, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:15:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

On 10/12/2010 3:30 PM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

I have two 6v golf cart batteries as a house bank. 500 total amp hours?
I forget. H33. Primarily long weekends use. I just want to be able to
hang on the hook on weekends once in a while without shore power.

I think what you are saying is that if I get a second, smaller inverter
(which probably come pretty cheap nowadays) it will use far less amps to
power the TV and even have some to spare for a DVR. Have I got that right?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Ah. So I probably can't just find a cheap one with a 12v power brick
(presumably I tear off the brick) as Wilbur suggests?

Stephen

It really depends on what you are powering. If only lights and TV then
certainly you should be able to get a couple of days use out of them.

Well, occasional microwave, charge cell phones, morning and afternoon
coffee, lights, and hopefully a TV/dvr.

The thing about inverters is that they aren't all equally as
efficient. Some require more power to create a specific amount of A.C.
than others, and usually the smaller, cheaper models are the less
efficient.

By the way, how big are these "6 v golf cart batteries" that give you
500 amp-hours? The usual 6 volt golf cart battery is the T-105 that is
rated at 225 amp-hours and wiring two in series to get 12 VDC results
in 225 amp-hours capacity.

Yeah, that's what I have, 225.

Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:18:13 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Well, occasional microwave, charge cell phones, morning and afternoon
coffee, lights, and hopefully a TV/dvr.

Kind of putting it all together...

I haven't seen the "brick" powered TV's in quite a while. Maybe at a
flea market or something?

The Golf Cart batteries are the best. Two in series should be fine for
what you want, but let's see.

Daily power, taking your "list" above out of order:

First, to determine the daily power requirements you have to take the
current draw, Amps, of each thing and multiply by the number of hours
used to get the Amp Hours per day of each. Remember, anything powered
by the inverter is going to be the 120VAC Watts divided by 10 for 12V
Amps.

We'll do that below, with best guesses.

Lights: I'm sure your talking 12V ones. The anchor light is the
biggie, with incandescent at about 1.5 Amps for 12 hrs.

[ 18 Amp Hours ]

LED would be about 2 Amp Hours, but cost more than a couple more
battereis.

Inside lighting. Varies, but say 2.5 Amps for 5 hours.

[ 12.5 Amp Hours ]

Same as above for LED inside lighting, but not as expensive.

Charging cell phone: Negligible if you have a 12V charger.

Coffee:

We had a 10-cup with thermos type carafe. It drew 75 Amps and ran for
5 minutes. Just to make it easy, let's say 6 minutes, 1/10 of an hour
or 7.5 Amp Hours per pot. Morning and afternoon then are

[ 15 Amp Hours ]

Microwave: We get a bit iffy here. Our 800 or 900 Watt one, I forget
which, drew about 95 Amps. That works out to about 1.6 Amp Hours per
minute of use ( 95 / 60 ). So you don't want to use it too much.

Let's say a couple meals reheated and a few cups of coffee and put it
at 15 minutes. 15 X 1.6 =

[ 24 Amp Hours ]


TV/DVD: Ours, using both was about 5 Amps as I recall. Figuring 4
hours in the evening and 1 hour of news in the morning, that's

[ 25 Amp Hours ]


Adding it all up, the total is:

[ 94.5 Amp Hours per day ]

So you're looking at basically 2 days with your batteries.

With LED anchor and inside lighting,

[ 68 Amp Hours per day ] Quite a difference.

Basically almost 3 days.

Remember you don't want to totally kill your batteries.

Adding another pair of batteries will of course double that and is the
less expensive route then LED lighting.

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 05:24:56 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:18:13 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Well, occasional microwave, charge cell phones, morning and afternoon
coffee, lights, and hopefully a TV/dvr.

Kind of putting it all together...

I haven't seen the "brick" powered TV's in quite a while. Maybe at a
flea market or something?

The Golf Cart batteries are the best. Two in series should be fine for
what you want, but let's see.

Daily power, taking your "list" above out of order:

First, to determine the daily power requirements you have to take the
current draw, Amps, of each thing and multiply by the number of hours
used to get the Amp Hours per day of each. Remember, anything powered
by the inverter is going to be the 120VAC Watts divided by 10 for 12V
Amps.

We'll do that below, with best guesses.

Lights: I'm sure your talking 12V ones. The anchor light is the
biggie, with incandescent at about 1.5 Amps for 12 hrs.

[ 18 Amp Hours ]

LED would be about 2 Amp Hours, but cost more than a couple more
battereis.

Inside lighting. Varies, but say 2.5 Amps for 5 hours.

[ 12.5 Amp Hours ]

Same as above for LED inside lighting, but not as expensive.

Charging cell phone: Negligible if you have a 12V charger.

Coffee:

We had a 10-cup with thermos type carafe. It drew 75 Amps and ran for
5 minutes. Just to make it easy, let's say 6 minutes, 1/10 of an hour
or 7.5 Amp Hours per pot. Morning and afternoon then are

[ 15 Amp Hours ]

Microwave: We get a bit iffy here. Our 800 or 900 Watt one, I forget
which, drew about 95 Amps. That works out to about 1.6 Amp Hours per
minute of use ( 95 / 60 ). So you don't want to use it too much.

Let's say a couple meals reheated and a few cups of coffee and put it
at 15 minutes. 15 X 1.6 =

[ 24 Amp Hours ]


TV/DVD: Ours, using both was about 5 Amps as I recall. Figuring 4
hours in the evening and 1 hour of news in the morning, that's

[ 25 Amp Hours ]


Adding it all up, the total is:

[ 94.5 Amp Hours per day ]

So you're looking at basically 2 days with your batteries.

With LED anchor and inside lighting,

[ 68 Amp Hours per day ] Quite a difference.

Basically almost 3 days.

Remember you don't want to totally kill your batteries.

Adding another pair of batteries will of course double that and is the
less expensive route then LED lighting.

Rick


I'm not sure of US prices but LED anchor lights are cheaper then
batteries over here :-) We can also get pin based LED replacements for
hi-intensity bulbs for reading lights.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:18:13 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

On 10/13/2010 5:30 PM, Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:15:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

On 10/12/2010 3:30 PM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:12 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Keep the 1500 W inverter for your microwave and coffepot. The standby
current will probably exceed the TV's current.

What does that mean?

Standby, or idle current is the Amperage the inverter draws while not
powering anything but is turned on. Of course we all turn the inverter
off when not being used, but it pretty much is also added to whatever
it's powering.

I've seen 1500 W inverters that have a 2.5 Amp idle, and some as low
as 0.5 Amp. Another factor is the inverter is more efficient at about
half power or so.

This is not all that much of an issue for folks with larger house
banks and/or easy means to recharge.

So the questions are, what size and type boat? What Amp Hour house
batteries?

I have two 6v golf cart batteries as a house bank. 500 total amp hours?
I forget. H33. Primarily long weekends use. I just want to be able to
hang on the hook on weekends once in a while without shore power.

I think what you are saying is that if I get a second, smaller inverter
(which probably come pretty cheap nowadays) it will use far less amps to
power the TV and even have some to spare for a DVR. Have I got that right?

You can find a 12V TV, but they're a whole lot more $$$

Ah. So I probably can't just find a cheap one with a 12v power brick
(presumably I tear off the brick) as Wilbur suggests?

Stephen

It really depends on what you are powering. If only lights and TV then
certainly you should be able to get a couple of days use out of them.

Well, occasional microwave, charge cell phones, morning and afternoon
coffee, lights, and hopefully a TV/dvr.

You can effectively discount the cell phone charger :-)
Coffee? Buy a French Press and make it with water heated on the stove
- tastes better too :-)

Lights - try to use LEDs wherever possible. Especially the anchor
light. The bulbs cost but are worth it for things left on.

The thing about inverters is that they aren't all equally as
efficient. Some require more power to create a specific amount of A.C.
than others, and usually the smaller, cheaper models are the less
efficient.

By the way, how big are these "6 v golf cart batteries" that give you
500 amp-hours? The usual 6 volt golf cart battery is the T-105 that is
rated at 225 amp-hours and wiring two in series to get 12 VDC results
in 225 amp-hours capacity.

Yeah, that's what I have, 225.

Stephen

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 05:24:56 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

Adding it all up, the total is:

[ 94.5 Amp Hours per day ]

So you're looking at basically 2 days with your batteries.

With LED anchor and inside lighting,

[ 68 Amp Hours per day ] Quite a difference.

Basically almost 3 days.

Remember you don't want to totally kill your batteries.

Good point.

If you want normal life from your inverter batts it is important to
limit the discharge level to less than 50% (about 11.7 volts when
under load). The net result is that you need twice as many amp-hours
as your energy budget, perhaps more if your recharge time is limited.
It take quite a while to bring the charge level back to a full 100%
because the acceptance rate tapers off once you are above about 80%.
A good design point for A-H capacity is 3 times your energy budget.

AGM batteries have a higher charge acceptance rate but cost about
twice as much. They are worthwhile however if limited by size and/or
weight. Gel cells have good acceptance rates also but are easily
damaged by higher charging voltages. Not worth the risk in my opinion
since AGMs are coming down in price.

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

The microwave goes overboard.

Use the stove for cooking.
When heating water, make extra and store in a thermos.

I'm still using my laptop for "TV".
No external display yet.

All lights converted to LED.



Remember you don't want to totally kill your batteries.

Adding another pair of batteries will of course double that and is the
less expensive route then LED lighting.

not so sure about that one...


Rick


--

Richard Lamb

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:35:31 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

The microwave goes overboard.

Oh no, don't do that. How will you reheat the left overs, cook the
instant frozen dinners and warm up the coffee? The microwave also
makes a good bread box when not heating things and I understand some
people have used them to dry their wet cat (once).

In all seriousness, they are very efficient at quickly heating things,
and for you propane and alcohol users, provide an alternative way of
cooking if the fuel runs out.

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:35:31 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

The microwave goes overboard.

Oh no, don't do that. How will you reheat the left overs, cook the
instant frozen dinners and warm up the coffee? The microwave also
makes a good bread box when not heating things and I understand some
people have used them to dry their wet cat (once).

In all seriousness, they are very efficient at quickly heating things,
and for you propane and alcohol users, provide an alternative way of
cooking if the fuel runs out.


I think you got that last part backwards, Wayne.
The alcohol or propane will still work long after the batteries are dead.



--

Richard Lamb

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:13:51 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

In all seriousness, they are very efficient at quickly heating things,
and for you propane and alcohol users, provide an alternative way of
cooking if the fuel runs out.


I think you got that last part backwards, Wayne.
The alcohol or propane will still work long after the batteries are dead.

I've been on boats that ran out of propane for various reasons, not
good for crew morale.

I view batteries as a renewable resource as long as the engine and
diesel fuel hold out. Our trawler is an "all electric" boat - no
stove fuel of any kind. I've come to appreciate that when I see
people schlepping various stove fuels in their dinghy or trying to
find the right adapter in a foreign country.

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:35:58 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:13:51 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

In all seriousness, they are very efficient at quickly heating things,
and for you propane and alcohol users, provide an alternative way of
cooking if the fuel runs out.


I think you got that last part backwards, Wayne.
The alcohol or propane will still work long after the batteries are dead.

I've been on boats that ran out of propane for various reasons, not
good for crew morale.

I view batteries as a renewable resource as long as the engine and
diesel fuel hold out. Our trawler is an "all electric" boat - no
stove fuel of any kind. I've come to appreciate that when I see
people schlepping various stove fuels in their dinghy or trying to
find the right adapter in a foreign country.

I think that there is a different mind set in the two types of boats.
Sail boat people all seem intent on saving electricity; trawler people
don't seem to give a hoot and have ice makers and all kinds of helpful
things.

I have a friend, has a 55 ft. ferro-cement ketch - 125 HP engine (and
a small gasoline gen set) and is forever saving electricity. He has a
separate inverter, sized for the usage, on every AC appliance in the
boat, LED lights that are too dim to read with, and is forever
worrying about amps. AND, he has an engine powered freezer and
refrigerator which he uses on trips....

I also know a motor boat guy that has all AC except for the radio and
nav lights. 150 HP engine (and no gen set :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:43:16 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

If you want normal life from your inverter batts it is important to
limit the discharge level to less than 50% (about 11.7 volts when
under load). The net result is that you need twice as many amp-hours
as your energy budget, perhaps more if your recharge time is limited.
It take quite a while to bring the charge level back to a full 100%
because the acceptance rate tapers off once you are above about 80%.
A good design point for A-H capacity is 3 times your energy budget.

Wayne, the 50% rule doesn't really apply to golf cart batteries. Back
in my electric car days there was a "trick" we used when we were
stupid and came to a stop from totally discharged batteries. Wait 10
to 20 minutes for the batteries to "self charge", then play
egg-on-accelerator and we'd get another mile or two. Wait and repeat.
Sometimes it took three or four of these cycles to get home.

Having said that, it's a good idea to limit to 20%, simply because
most inverters will shut down around that point.

A good point on taking a while to bring to a full charge. A lot of
folks think you can just pump in the Amps with a big alternator, but
it doesn't work that way in the real world.

A bit of golf cart battery advice. There are two battery manufacturers
in the USA, and they pretty much do the same thing. We bought the
same batteries from Sam's for $72 each as the local dealer had for
$160 each. By same I mean the same brand and model.

Re microwaves and coffee pots. It boils down to personal preference
and the boat systems. In our case we had enough solar so it was "free"
renewable energy as opposed to burning propane that we had to replace.

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On 10/14/2010 3:24 AM, Rick Morel wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:18:13 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Well, occasional microwave, charge cell phones, morning and afternoon
coffee, lights, and hopefully a TV/dvr.

Kind of putting it all together...

I haven't seen the "brick" powered TV's in quite a while. Maybe at a
flea market or something?

The Golf Cart batteries are the best. Two in series should be fine for
what you want, but let's see.

Daily power, taking your "list" above out of order:

First, to determine the daily power requirements you have to take the
current draw, Amps, of each thing and multiply by the number of hours
used to get the Amp Hours per day of each. Remember, anything powered
by the inverter is going to be the 120VAC Watts divided by 10 for 12V
Amps.

We'll do that below, with best guesses.

Lights: I'm sure your talking 12V ones. The anchor light is the
biggie, with incandescent at about 1.5 Amps for 12 hrs.

[ 18 Amp Hours ]

LED would be about 2 Amp Hours, but cost more than a couple more
battereis.

Inside lighting. Varies, but say 2.5 Amps for 5 hours.

[ 12.5 Amp Hours ]

Same as above for LED inside lighting, but not as expensive.

Charging cell phone: Negligible if you have a 12V charger.

Coffee:

We had a 10-cup with thermos type carafe. It drew 75 Amps and ran for
5 minutes. Just to make it easy, let's say 6 minutes, 1/10 of an hour
or 7.5 Amp Hours per pot. Morning and afternoon then are

[ 15 Amp Hours ]

Microwave: We get a bit iffy here. Our 800 or 900 Watt one, I forget
which, drew about 95 Amps. That works out to about 1.6 Amp Hours per
minute of use ( 95 / 60 ). So you don't want to use it too much.

Let's say a couple meals reheated and a few cups of coffee and put it
at 15 minutes. 15 X 1.6 =

[ 24 Amp Hours ]


TV/DVD: Ours, using both was about 5 Amps as I recall. Figuring 4
hours in the evening and 1 hour of news in the morning, that's

[ 25 Amp Hours ]


Adding it all up, the total is:

[ 94.5 Amp Hours per day ]

So you're looking at basically 2 days with your batteries.

With LED anchor and inside lighting,

[ 68 Amp Hours per day ] Quite a difference.

Basically almost 3 days.

Remember you don't want to totally kill your batteries.

Adding another pair of batteries will of course double that and is the
less expensive route then LED lighting.

Hey, thanks Rick!

Just for jollies I looked at the back of my 42" home HDTV (plasma) and
it said 387watts, so do I have it right that since watts = amps/volts,
this TV will consume 387/120 = 3.2amps , so 3.2 amphours per hour?

Stephen

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:19:56 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

Wayne, the 50% rule doesn't really apply to golf cart batteries. Back
in my electric car days there was a "trick" we used when we were
stupid and came to a stop from totally discharged batteries. Wait 10
to 20 minutes for the batteries to "self charge", then play
egg-on-accelerator and we'd get another mile or two. Wait and repeat.
Sometimes it took three or four of these cycles to get home.

Having said that, it's a good idea to limit to 20%, simply because
most inverters will shut down around that point.

I'm sure that it's possible to get away with an 80% discharge for some
period of time. I've seen some fairly convincing life cycle charts
however that seem to indicate greatly increased battery life at the
50% level as opposed to 80%. I like to baby our house batts as much
as possible given the expense and difficulty of replacing them.

See "Cycles vs Lifespan" at:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9595/batterydod.gif

(from site: http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm )

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 07:44:48 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Hey, thanks Rick!

Just for jollies I looked at the back of my 42" home HDTV (plasma) and
it said 387watts, so do I have it right that since watts = amps/volts,
this TV will consume 387/120 = 3.2amps , so 3.2 amphours per hour?

Stephen

That's correct. 3.2 Amps at 120VAC, but using the 10% rule, that's
38.7 Amps at 12V through an inverter! Or 32 Amps at 12V if the
inverter were 100% efficient.

The smaller the TV, the lower it's Wattage. As I recall our 16" LCD
was 40 Watts, so about 4 Amps at 12V through the inverter.

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:21:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

I'm sure that it's possible to get away with an 80% discharge for some
period of time. I've seen some fairly convincing life cycle charts
however that seem to indicate greatly increased battery life at the
50% level as opposed to 80%. I like to baby our house batts as much
as possible given the expense and difficulty of replacing them.

See "Cycles vs Lifespan" at:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9595/batterydod.gif

(from site: http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm )


I agree about babying one's house bank, as long as it doesn't limit
the use of them. Like everything else, it's a trade off.

Here's data from real world experience. It's simply what was, with no
claims:

Back in my EV days, we had a group of about 30 that had built our own
cars or pickups. Each one of them used 20 golf cart batteries in
series.

Note that we all recharged at the C/10 rate ( Amp Hour Capacity
divided by 10 ) and recharged daily. Next to overcharging, the next
best way to destroy a lead / acid battery is to delay charging,
allowing sulfation. We made very sure to keep the electrolyte above
the plates and we did an equalizing charge monthly.

We got an average of 3,600 charges, with a few getting about 7,000.

To explain, our batteries lasted 8 to 12 years. These were our regular
cars. Some of us commuted to work daily. Some barely took the surface
charge off the batts most days, some slmost killed them dead each
workday. That doubled figure were for the few that had really long
commutes and/or their workplace supplied sockets to recharge.

Two of the group rigged up a generator on a trailer to extend their
range. Note they couldn't pull a large enough generator to go
indefinitely, just enough to double or triple the range. The motors
drew about 140 Amps or so at highway speeds.

This seems to say that lead / acid batteries are somewhat like a clock
- wind it up once and it's going to work for X length of time. The
fact that regular car batteries seem to last about 2 years says the
same thing.

Note that we all had several batteries fail at one time or another
during that period. I had one go after a couple months that was
replaced under warranty. I don't remember now just when, but I had two
others go out over the years.

To repeat, we all got 8 to 12 years from our batteries, whether we
discharged them to 10 or 20 or 50 or 70 or 90 per cent daily. We got
many more cycles than the graphs say - most of us should have gotten a
year or two or three. Maybe because we did otherwise baby them, or
maybe because the published figures are worse case, or both?


In any event, if I were to be a weekend sailor and planned on
discharging to 20% or so, I don't think it would be worth it to buy an
extra pair of batteries and have the extra weight and space taken up.
I'd still be getting a pretty long life out of them. Long term
cruising is a different story - I packed 'um in, as many as I could!

Rick

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 07:43:46 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 12:21:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

I'm sure that it's possible to get away with an 80% discharge for some
period of time. I've seen some fairly convincing life cycle charts
however that seem to indicate greatly increased battery life at the
50% level as opposed to 80%. I like to baby our house batts as much
as possible given the expense and difficulty of replacing them.

See "Cycles vs Lifespan" at:

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9595/batterydod.gif

(from site: http://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm )


I agree about babying one's house bank, as long as it doesn't limit
the use of them. Like everything else, it's a trade off.

Here's data from real world experience. It's simply what was, with no
claims:

Back in my EV days, we had a group of about 30 that had built our own
cars or pickups. Each one of them used 20 golf cart batteries in
series.

Note that we all recharged at the C/10 rate ( Amp Hour Capacity
divided by 10 ) and recharged daily. Next to overcharging, the next
best way to destroy a lead / acid battery is to delay charging,
allowing sulfation. We made very sure to keep the electrolyte above
the plates and we did an equalizing charge monthly.

We got an average of 3,600 charges, with a few getting about 7,000.

To explain, our batteries lasted 8 to 12 years. These were our regular
cars. Some of us commuted to work daily. Some barely took the surface
charge off the batts most days, some slmost killed them dead each
workday. That doubled figure were for the few that had really long
commutes and/or their workplace supplied sockets to recharge.

Two of the group rigged up a generator on a trailer to extend their
range. Note they couldn't pull a large enough generator to go
indefinitely, just enough to double or triple the range. The motors
drew about 140 Amps or so at highway speeds.

This seems to say that lead / acid batteries are somewhat like a clock
- wind it up once and it's going to work for X length of time. The
fact that regular car batteries seem to last about 2 years says the
same thing.

Note that we all had several batteries fail at one time or another
during that period. I had one go after a couple months that was
replaced under warranty. I don't remember now just when, but I had two
others go out over the years.

To repeat, we all got 8 to 12 years from our batteries, whether we
discharged them to 10 or 20 or 50 or 70 or 90 per cent daily. We got
many more cycles than the graphs say - most of us should have gotten a
year or two or three. Maybe because we did otherwise baby them, or
maybe because the published figures are worse case, or both?


In any event, if I were to be a weekend sailor and planned on
discharging to 20% or so, I don't think it would be worth it to buy an
extra pair of batteries and have the extra weight and space taken up.
I'd still be getting a pretty long life out of them. Long term
cruising is a different story - I packed 'um in, as many as I could!

Rick

Interesting, great project!

Our house batts have not done nearly as well since we are now on our
3rd set in 6 years. The latest was installed last year before our 6
month Caribbean cruise and they show signs of doing better than
previously but there are reasons for that. We are now using Trojan
T-145s instead of T-105s, and I'm being really, really careful with
them. The first set was from Sam's Club and they were half dead after
just 6 months of liveaboard cruising but I'm sure some of that was my
fault.

My quest now is for an alternator that can recharge them without
toasting itself in short order. Meanwhile I have to be careful to
only recharge one bank (4 batts) at a time.

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

Rick Morel wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2010 07:44:48 -0700, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Hey, thanks Rick!

Just for jollies I looked at the back of my 42" home HDTV (plasma) and
it said 387watts, so do I have it right that since watts = amps/volts,
this TV will consume 387/120 = 3.2amps , so 3.2 amphours per hour?

Stephen

That's correct. 3.2 Amps at 120VAC, but using the 10% rule, that's
38.7 Amps at 12V through an inverter! Or 32 Amps at 12V if the
inverter were 100% efficient.

The smaller the TV, the lower it's Wattage. As I recall our 16" LCD
was 40 Watts, so about 4 Amps at 12V through the inverter.

Rick




As I recall the DC power brick for my laptop is rated 18 watts.

1(+/-) Amp



--

Richard Lamb

Best 19" HD flat screen TV for cruising
 

On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 09:35:29 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Our house batts have not done nearly as well since we are now on our
3rd set in 6 years. The latest was installed last year before our 6
month Caribbean cruise and they show signs of doing better than
previously but there are reasons for that. We are now using Trojan
T-145s instead of T-105s, and I'm being really, really careful with
them. The first set was from Sam's Club and they were half dead after
just 6 months of liveaboard cruising but I'm sure some of that was my
fault.

Written with a smiling tone of write....

It does sound like you are doing something wrong. They should last
much longer. Maybe some rambling about the care and feeding...

The quickest way to destroy is to allow the electrolyte to get below
the top of the plates.

Number 2 is to consistantly overcharge. A possibility here is the
alternator. Another that I've seen do the job is a non-automatic AC
charger or an automatic one that is not cutting off, or cutting off at
too high a voltage. I had one that suddenly upped its cutoff voltage
to the point it would rarely cut off. It's now a mini fish reef.
Another battery murderer are solar panels with no regulator.

Number 3 is periods without recharging. It's best to recharge within
24 hours, if possible. One scenero is not using the boat for a while
and not using an automatic charger. The batteries will of course
self-dischagre.

Number 4 is not doing an equalizing charge regularly. This is like
Number 3 in that some of the cells will wind up at a lower charge and
those cells tend to be more and more discharged as time goes on. This
is also a reason to change both of the batteries in a series bank when
one fails. The idea to to match the series pairs as closely as
possible. It's not necessary to match on the parallel side. You can
mix those up any way you want, even to sticking a 12V, 100 AH battery
in there with no harm.

Note that if one cell on one battery is very much more discharged or
"bad", the rest of the pairs will be constantly "charging" that pair.
This results in ruining the other battery of the pair from constantly
"overcharging", and has occasionally resulted in the "bad" cell
actually getting a reverse charge (swapping + and - poles).




My quest now is for an alternator that can recharge them without
toasting itself in short order. Meanwhile I have to be careful to
only recharge one bank (4 batts) at a time.

Do you have temperature sensors hooked to the regulator? That's a very
good idea on a high-output alternator. Another "battery saver". Also
be aware that charging at more than C/10 will shorten the life a bit,
and of course like everything else battery, the higher the charge rate
the more effect.

Hope this is some food for thought.

Rick