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#11
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
"Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset water intakes? --Vic This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling water passages and any blockage there means big trouble.. Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such an arrangement. If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high capacity low head pump that will really shift some water. I don't have that but know of others who do. The raw water pump on a large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more. Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. If the boat is sinking you do what you have to do. I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it, and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some time. Another point worth mentioning is that you must be very careful to watch progress. Should the bypass manage to suck the bilge dry you will be running your engine without cooling water |
#12
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something like this: http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/iid_261/index.htm or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water pump. |
#13
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
On Oct 5, 6:05*pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something like this: http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/i... or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water pump. Much better alternative, IMHO ... for one thing, it can be routed to a float switch & an alarm, so you know it's running, and if it's running, you need it. Usually if you have a leak so serious that using the engine raw water pump to stop flooding, it's progressed too far for any diverters or Y- suctions to do you any good. Fresh Breezes- Doug K |
#14
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
"Edgar" wrote in message
... "Capt. JG" wrote in message easolutions... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset water intakes? --Vic This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling water passages and any blockage there means big trouble.. Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such an arrangement. If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high capacity low head pump that will really shift some water. I don't have that but know of others who do. The raw water pump on a large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more. Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. If the boat is sinking you do what you have to do. I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it, and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some time. Another point worth mentioning is that you must be very careful to watch progress. Should the bypass manage to suck the bilge dry you will be running your engine without cooling water Yes, but I think I would be there watching... perhaps from the companion way, so I could make a hasty retreat. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#15
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
"it's me" wrote in message
... On Oct 5, 6:05 pm, Wayne.B wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:42:52 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. With an engine in that size range you'd probably get more pumping capacity for your money with a large electric pump, maybe something like this: http://www.rule-industries.com/products/pumps/bilge_pumps/rule_3700/i... or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000O8F7RE That would probably be 5 or 6 times the capacity of your raw water pump. Much better alternative, IMHO ... for one thing, it can be routed to a float switch & an alarm, so you know it's running, and if it's running, you need it. Usually if you have a leak so serious that using the engine raw water pump to stop flooding, it's progressed too far for any diverters or Y- suctions to do you any good. Perhaps, but a couple of things come to mind... first the Y valve is a lower price (it's an unlikely possibility, but I suppose it's $200 or the cost of my deductible)... then there's a place to mount the pump, the lines that would need to be run, the electical, etc. Whereas, if it's just installing a stopcock Y... also, the bilge pumps would be working also, so that would assist the raw water pump in moving water. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#16
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
"Vic Smith" wrote in message ... On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:48:53 -0400, "mmc" wrote: Vic, I met a guy that had holed the hull on a 22' fishing boat (rebar on new county ramps), drove the boat out to thier (Central Florida, Atlantic side) bottom fishing spot on plane (hull hole above water). It was a calm, flat day. Once at the fishing spot, boat drops off plane and water starts coming in. They (owner +2) had time to get and write down a position fix from the Loran (this was late 80s), call the Coasties on VHF, disconnect and pack electronics and fishing gear in a big cooler and don life jackets before the boat sank. 2 of the 3 were sport scuba divers. I'd have jumped in and plugged the hole with t-shirts/extra life jacket/neighbors cat/whatever, bailed and kept bailing while motoring home. But then, I'd hope common sense would have led me to putting the boat back on the trailer to see what the heck all the noise was from when launching and hitting the rebar. He didn't admit it, but I suspect copius amounts of beer was involoved. I hoped there was an excuse for this dumbassedness. I don't think it was for insurance, the owner wanted my shop to recover the boat, old hull with a new motor and all the bolt on gear. He offered the hull in exchange for the offshore salvage. I told him to go find the boat and mark it with a bouy and then we'd talk about what it was going to cost but we weren't going to do it for an old hull with a hole in it. He never came back. Don't know if he found it or even tried to. Interesting. Were/are you a diver? Seems most boaters don't think much about hole patch kits. Common in the Navy and Merchant Marine. Reminds me of the captain of the Rocket, an old Cleveland Tankers oiler I did a few trips on as a watertender. Think we were in Lake Huron when the captain put us dead in the water, donned his scuba gear and went overboard with oakum and a fid. Apparently somebody had spotted some leakage from the hull plates, so he sealed them up with oakum. A patch kit for a small boat shouldn't be hard to put together. Maybe a sheet of visqueen and some glue/gunk that will hold it on under water. If I had a boat I'd look into it. Nice being prepared. Of course when the **** really hits the fan it's a new ball game. "What?!!" "What do you mean the patch kit is in the garage?!" --Vic I was a Navy EOD Diver and an on and off inshore commercial diver for a few years afterwards. Too many spoiled - college drop out - dope smoking punks in that business for me. I decided I needed to do something else when I came up the ladder one night and found the dive supe and standby diver smoking pot. Me and another diver were relying on those idiots to help us if we got into trouble. I knew they'd eventually get someone killed but it wasn't going to be me. The commercial schools used to turn out good divers, now they're just like too many things, as long as daddys check clears, junior is going to get a certificate. In 2nd class diving school, we were trained to use tooker patches, and use soft patches, cut and weld . A friend told me of an instance where he mixed up a bunch (2-3 cups) of epoxy glue and put it in a paper plate which was then folded in half. The target was a 4-5 inch hole in a hull caused by rubbing on a piling. He dove down, unfolded the plate and jammed it against the hole, holding there for the 10 minutes or so until the epoxy kicked. Afterwards, they raised the hull to the gunnels by crane and pumped the water out. I agree that a simple patch kit would be a darn good idea: a piece of 3/8" plywood could be stowed under a cushion, the cushion itself, a scrap of sail cloth and line bundled, tapered wooden plugs and a mallet, and some sort of plan that the skipper has shared with the crew. Tapered plugs and a mallet are a definite must have. I believe more boats are sunk by fixture failures than running into things. So, why not have a boat Vic? Even just looking at boats is theraputic. |
#17
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
On Oct 5, 1:42*pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset water intakes? --Vic This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling water passages and any blockage there means big trouble.. Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such an arrangement. If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high capacity low head pump that will really shift some water. I don't have that but know of others who do. * The raw water pump on a large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more. Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. * If the boat is sinking you do what you have to do. I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it, and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some time. -- "j" ganz - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Your asking for problems jon. You will be more likely to loose an engine than ever use the system. Y valves fail, plumbing leaks, ect.. overheated engine .. Just have a proper pump and a backup for the pump. I've never seen any commerical boat set up with a diverter system. If it were a good ideal they would be on every work boat. Joe |
#18
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:36:10 -0400, "mmc" wrote:
I was a Navy EOD Diver and an on and off inshore commercial diver for a few years afterwards. Too many spoiled - college drop out - dope smoking punks in that business for me. I decided I needed to do something else when I came up the ladder one night and found the dive supe and standby diver smoking pot. Me and another diver were relying on those idiots to help us if we got into trouble. I knew they'd eventually get someone killed but it wasn't going to be me. Whoa. Not too confidence inspiring. I was working for a plumber back during the Reagan admin after I got laid off from my first IT job. We're laying sewer pipe in a 5 foot ditch in an apartment building basement when him and a friend of his who dropped by light up joints and offered me one. I was never really into that, and certainly not when working, so I passed. Maybe my 6th or 7th job with him. Didn't bother me that Roy lit up, though it surprised me a bit. Hardest working guy I ever saw, and a real good plumber. Besides, unlike your situation, I could keep an eye on him. And I already had 4 kids to feed. Funny thing is he never called me back after I turned down that joint. HE didn't trust ME. The tokers I've run across were either stupid or paranoid. Just my experience. Haven't known many. Roy wasn't stupid. When I was washing trucks at UPS a trailer sweeper kid who had totaled his car was asking for a ride to work until he replaced it. Same start time as me, so I told him I'd pick him up. Cost me maybe 10 minutes. Not even enough to ask for him to kick in for gas. First day I stop in front of his house, he keeps me waiting 5 minutes, then gets in my car with a lit joint. I laid down the law about that real quick, and told him to be ready when I pulled up. Reading a clock ain't exactly rocket science. Next day he still keeps me waiting, and just reeks up the car with the pot smell on his clothes. Told him not to keep me waiting. Couldn't even talk to this guy during the 20 minute ride. He was too pot-befuddled. Third day same thing, and I told him to find another ride. He was stupid. Too bad. But his folks probably loved him. The commercial schools used to turn out good divers, now they're just like too many things, as long as daddys check clears, junior is going to get a certificate. In 2nd class diving school, we were trained to use tooker patches, and use soft patches, cut and weld . A friend told me of an instance where he mixed up a bunch (2-3 cups) of epoxy glue and put it in a paper plate which was then folded in half. The target was a 4-5 inch hole in a hull caused by rubbing on a piling. He dove down, unfolded the plate and jammed it against the hole, holding there for the 10 minutes or so until the epoxy kicked. Afterwards, they raised the hull to the gunnels by crane and pumped the water out. I looked around for underwater glues and only found 2-part epoxies. Was looking for a quick stickum to outline a hole, then slap a piece of heavy visqueen on it. Just an idea. No scuba gear. A tube of roof tar might work if water action isn't too bad. Needs experimentation. Just talking about small FRP boats. Another thought comes to mind. Stick an inflatable PFD in the hole and pull the cord. Might be useful to carry some for that purpose. Could be "armored" with something flexible and tough to prevent holing the PFD. Here's another idea. An open plexi box maybe a foot square and 2 inches deep. Open edges lined with thick soft foam to conform to hull. Hole in middle of plexi to take nozzle from can of expanding foam. Slap it against any hole not too big for the box, insert can and inject foam. Foam displaces water in the box and mushrooms inside hull, leaving a 2 inch foam plate on the outside held by the mushroom inside. Now you've got time to mix some epoxy and glue a sheet of something stronger over the patch, and even pop open a bottle of beer if you dare. Just an idea. Details like what kind of expanding foam, force needed to hold plexi box against hull, etc., to be determined. I'll leave that to Froggy. I agree that a simple patch kit would be a darn good idea: a piece of 3/8" plywood could be stowed under a cushion, the cushion itself, a scrap of sail cloth and line bundled, tapered wooden plugs and a mallet, and some sort of plan that the skipper has shared with the crew. Tapered plugs and a mallet are a definite must have. I believe more boats are sunk by fixture failures than running into things. So, why not have a boat Vic? Even just looking at boats is theraputic. Can't keep a boat here. Have to wait until I move. Florida. --Vic |
#19
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
"Joe" wrote in message
... On Oct 5, 1:42 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:41:19 +0200, "Edgar" wrote: Anybody have diverters to suck the bilge on their engine and genset water intakes? --Vic This facility is available on some small boat inlet strainers that I have seen but I think it is a bad idea as you do not want to put dirty bilge water through your engine, as a modern engine has very small cooling water passages and any blockage there means big trouble.. Moreover, the capacity of an engine cooling pump is pretty small in comparison with a decent bilge pump, which is another reason against such an arrangement. If you want to use the engine to pump your bilge, rig a belt driven high capacity low head pump that will really shift some water. I don't have that but know of others who do. The raw water pump on a large engine will typically pump 30 to 40 gallons per minute or more. Raw water circulation on large salt water engines is almost always through a heat exchanger instead of the engine block. If the boat is sinking you do what you have to do. I have a Westerbeke 13. It uses raw water to the heat exchanger. I don't think the 13 is considered a big engine. I've been thinking about making this sort of connection. I believe I first heard about it in a mag. article... SAIL or Cruising World.. can't remember. Seems like a good idea for a last-resort situation. If you don't have it and the boat sinks, the boat sinks. If you have it, and it works, the boat doesn't sink. If you have it, and it clogs up the engine, which then quits, the boat sinks, but you might buy yourself some time. -- "j" ganz - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Your asking for problems jon. You will be more likely to loose an engine than ever use the system. Y valves fail, plumbing leaks, ect.. overheated engine .. Just have a proper pump and a backup for the pump. I've never seen any commerical boat set up with a diverter system. If it were a good ideal they would be on every work boat. I have bronze seacocks that until recently hadn't been serviced in over 10 years. They worked perfectly. If I were going to do this, I would use quality parts. I've never had a leak in any hose or connection, and I inspect the critical ones regularly. I have main bilge and backup pumps. I haven't made any decisions about doing this so far. I consider doing lots of things to the boat but I probably do only 10 percent of them, being fairly cautious about making changes. Thanks for the advice/comments though... do appreciate it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#20
posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Whales and Diverter Valves
On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:49:11 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: I have bronze seacocks that until recently hadn't been serviced in over 10 years. They worked perfectly. If I were going to do this, I would use quality parts. I've never had a leak in any hose or connection, and I inspect the critical ones regularly. I have main bilge and backup pumps. I haven't made any decisions about doing this so far. I consider doing lots of things to the boat but I probably do only 10 percent of them, being fairly cautious about making changes. Just to add some perspective to taking on water, and why boats sink, this might be useful. Boat U.S. claims report. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/sinking/default.asp Sinkings due to holing are a small percent. I really do like the idea of a bilge alarm, and would put one in a hidden bilge. --Vic |
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