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Volvo MD7A overheating
I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling.
Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"hpeer" wrote in message
... I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard Do you have water flow out the back when it overheats? Is it normal flow? Also, I'm thinking about a failing raw water pump... not the impeller. It's driven by a belt... is the belt snug? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
hpeer wrote in news:494e6e63$0$5528
: The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Are you telling us there's ONE thru hull fitting feeding water to the engine while the sink and bilge pump use it to pump water overboard?? That's so incredibly stupid I'm amazed the engine survived! The engine pulls on its tit. The suction pulls on the sink and bilge pump line and SUCKS AIR so the engine doesn't get cooling water. Please tell me it's not installed this stupidly! Please?! |
Volvo MD7A overheating
I guess there are intake taps, but also seems starnge as for me - taps may let some air to be sucked-in.
JaC ----- Are you telling us there's ONE thru hull fitting feeding water to the engine while the sink and bilge pump use it to pump water overboard? |
Volvo MD7A overheating
hpeer wrote:
I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard Is water coming out of the exhaust? It will come out of exhaust irrespective of the thermostat position. So if you have water then there is insufficient circulation around the head and block. As you have removed the thermostat, try clearing the small hole behind the thermostat in the housing. Its prone to blocking with rust/crud as it's small. Best of luck |
Volvo MD7A overheating
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:38:40 -0500, hpeer wrote:
I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard I am the process of rebuilding my own raw water cooling and have the following comments about yours: The usual configuration for the engine cooling is Thru-hull to Strainer to xmission cooler to water pump to oil cooler to engine to exhaust elbow and overboard. You used the word "tap" to indicate connections to the transmission cooler. This should be the entire flow from the strainer to the pump, i.e., hose from strainer to xmission cooler to pump. The hose from the thru-hull to the strainer to the cooler to the pump and onward to the engine should be the full size of the thru-hull (if possible). If you are going to install "taps" in the line for uses other then engine cooling you MUST be sure that these taps are isolated with valves and not used while the engine is running. The main strainer should/must be located below the water line so that with the sea cock open the strainer fills. If this is an old engine and it has not been flushed after every use in salt water, which is seldom/never done you probably have scale built up inside the engine that could be blocking water passages. This scale will not dissolve in fresh water, by the way. There are acid flushes which will remove it but I do not have a formula. Perhaps google if you feel this might be a problem. Regarding water coming out the exhaust. It is not an accurate indicator of anything except that water is getting through. In my own case there ~appears~ to be normal amounts of water out the exhaust but the engine overheated over 1800 RPM due to restrictions in the inlet line to the pump. By the way, you DO want a strainer in the line to keep stuff out of the system. I have removed plastic bags from the main strainer as well as small creatures, weeds, mud, small sticks and innumerable things that you probably don't want in the engine or pump. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:38:40 -0500, hpeer wrote: I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard I am the process of rebuilding my own raw water cooling and have the following comments about yours: The usual configuration for the engine cooling is Thru-hull to Strainer to xmission cooler to water pump to oil cooler to engine to exhaust elbow and overboard. You used the word "tap" to indicate connections to the transmission cooler. This should be the entire flow from the strainer to the pump, i.e., hose from strainer to xmission cooler to pump. The hose from the thru-hull to the strainer to the cooler to the pump and onward to the engine should be the full size of the thru-hull (if possible). If you are going to install "taps" in the line for uses other then engine cooling you MUST be sure that these taps are isolated with valves and not used while the engine is running. The main strainer should/must be located below the water line so that with the sea cock open the strainer fills. If this is an old engine and it has not been flushed after every use in salt water, which is seldom/never done you probably have scale built up inside the engine that could be blocking water passages. This scale will not dissolve in fresh water, by the way. There are acid flushes which will remove it but I do not have a formula. Perhaps google if you feel this might be a problem. Regarding water coming out the exhaust. It is not an accurate indicator of anything except that water is getting through. In my own case there ~appears~ to be normal amounts of water out the exhaust but the engine overheated over 1800 RPM due to restrictions in the inlet line to the pump. By the way, you DO want a strainer in the line to keep stuff out of the system. I have removed plastic bags from the main strainer as well as small creatures, weeds, mud, small sticks and innumerable things that you probably don't want in the engine or pump. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) He said it was an intermittent problem... so does your situation reflect the same sort of over-heating? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Capt. JG wrote:
"hpeer" wrote in message ... I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard Do you have water flow out the back when it overheats? Is it normal flow? Also, I'm thinking about a failing raw water pump... not the impeller. It's driven by a belt... is the belt snug? No, the engine is not sucking up water. The bilge intake is used when winterizing so that I can put anti-freeze into the engine. The last time this issue/problem occurred was during layup and I was not able to get the engine to suck up anti-freeze. This particular water pump is on a little shaft on the back of the engine. I suppose the pump could be failing to turn intermittently, I had not considered that possibility. Seems kinda far fetched, but then again this whole problem feels weird. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Larry wrote:
hpeer wrote in news:494e6e63$0$5528 : The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Are you telling us there's ONE thru hull fitting feeding water to the engine while the sink and bilge pump use it to pump water overboard?? That's so incredibly stupid I'm amazed the engine survived! The engine pulls on its tit. The suction pulls on the sink and bilge pump line and SUCKS AIR so the engine doesn't get cooling water. Please tell me it's not installed this stupidly! Please?! The "bilge" line is there only for winterizing the engine and is isolate by a valve. The galley line is also isolated by its own valve. I had considered that I might be getting air into the engine line from the galley, although I have had the galley working in tandem with the engine. Probably no more. None the less, during the most recent episode I shut off all the "taps/valves" so that the engine was drawing ONLY from the bucket of anti-freeze. With no success. Now that you have me thinking about it, I wonder if the strainer had gotten air in it? I don't know. Thanks for the response. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
If you are going to install "taps" in the line for uses other then engine cooling you MUST be sure that these taps are isolated with valves and not used while the engine is running. There are valves and I will heed this admonition. The main strainer should/must be located below the water line so that with the sea cock open the strainer fills. The original installation of the strainer was most assuredly ABOVE the water line. I believe that it is still slightly above but I am not positive. Well now, you've got me digging into Calder. While the text does not specifically say to install the strainer below the water line the diagrams, although fairly diagrammatic, surely tend to indicate that is the way to do it. I do (at least at times) get water flow through the system with the engine off. This MUST be due to a siphon effect. I can't swear that it happens when I am having the overheating problem. Well I now have one MORE thing to put on my summer to do list. Make sure strainer is below water level. Thanks, Great reply |
Volvo MD7A overheating
hpeer wrote in news:494ecf5f$0$5535
: Now that you have me thinking about it, I wonder if the strainer had gotten air in it? I don't know. Thanks for the response. Isn't the seawater pump under the waterline? Is there anywhere in the hoses leading to the seawater pump that's above the waterline from the thru hull fitting? That would keep it from priming properly and might get an air bubble trap that can't be overcome. If the thru hull valve is open, and I pull off the hose from the seawater pump, I wanna see seawater come gushing out of that hose, unattended. See if yours does it. I want the strainer underwater, too. Damned air conditioner installed in Geoffrey's old Endeavour sloop used to lose its cooling water prime because of where the idiots mounted the strainer. I moved it all under the waterline...problem solved. Pull off any hose and prepare to be DROWNED. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
hpeer wrote in news:494ed38b$0$5541
: I do (at least at times) get water flow through the system with the engine off. This MUST be due to a siphon effect. I can't swear that it happens when I am having the overheating problem. There you go. You don't want ANY water system aboard depending on something running on a siphon to make it go. That's just an accident waiting to happen. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:50:10 -0500, hpeer wrote:
Well now, you've got me digging into Calder. While the text does not specifically say to install the strainer below the water line the diagrams, although fairly diagrammatic, surely tend to indicate that is the way to do it. I've never seen one installed any other way. Since that engine is worth a lot more than a strainer, I'd ditch the home made one and get the real thing while you are at it. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"hpeer" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: "hpeer" wrote in message ... I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard Do you have water flow out the back when it overheats? Is it normal flow? Also, I'm thinking about a failing raw water pump... not the impeller. It's driven by a belt... is the belt snug? No, the engine is not sucking up water. The bilge intake is used when winterizing so that I can put anti-freeze into the engine. The last time this issue/problem occurred was during layup and I was not able to get the engine to suck up anti-freeze. This particular water pump is on a little shaft on the back of the engine. I suppose the pump could be failing to turn intermittently, I had not considered that possibility. Seems kinda far fetched, but then again this whole problem feels weird. Seems like something that intermittent wouldn't be related to restricted flow, since if it's restricted, it's not going to get better. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer
specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf MW |
Volvo MD7A overheating
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:43:45 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:38:40 -0500, hpeer wrote: I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard I am the process of rebuilding my own raw water cooling and have the following comments about yours: The usual configuration for the engine cooling is Thru-hull to Strainer to xmission cooler to water pump to oil cooler to engine to exhaust elbow and overboard. You used the word "tap" to indicate connections to the transmission cooler. This should be the entire flow from the strainer to the pump, i.e., hose from strainer to xmission cooler to pump. The hose from the thru-hull to the strainer to the cooler to the pump and onward to the engine should be the full size of the thru-hull (if possible). If you are going to install "taps" in the line for uses other then engine cooling you MUST be sure that these taps are isolated with valves and not used while the engine is running. The main strainer should/must be located below the water line so that with the sea cock open the strainer fills. If this is an old engine and it has not been flushed after every use in salt water, which is seldom/never done you probably have scale built up inside the engine that could be blocking water passages. This scale will not dissolve in fresh water, by the way. There are acid flushes which will remove it but I do not have a formula. Perhaps google if you feel this might be a problem. Regarding water coming out the exhaust. It is not an accurate indicator of anything except that water is getting through. In my own case there ~appears~ to be normal amounts of water out the exhaust but the engine overheated over 1800 RPM due to restrictions in the inlet line to the pump. By the way, you DO want a strainer in the line to keep stuff out of the system. I have removed plastic bags from the main strainer as well as small creatures, weeds, mud, small sticks and innumerable things that you probably don't want in the engine or pump. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) He said it was an intermittent problem... so does your situation reflect the same sort of over-heating? Yes it was intermittent... until the gunk built up so much that it became continuous. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Volvo MD7A overheating
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:50:10 -0500, hpeer wrote:
If you are going to install "taps" in the line for uses other then engine cooling you MUST be sure that these taps are isolated with valves and not used while the engine is running. There are valves and I will heed this admonition. The main strainer should/must be located below the water line so that with the sea cock open the strainer fills. The original installation of the strainer was most assuredly ABOVE the water line. I believe that it is still slightly above but I am not positive. Well now, you've got me digging into Calder. While the text does not specifically say to install the strainer below the water line the diagrams, although fairly diagrammatic, surely tend to indicate that is the way to do it. While a rubber impeller pump is self priming I believe it is advisable to make the system as much self priming as possible. Perhaps I should have said it is better to have the strainer below the waterline... The sooner you get water to the pump the less chance of overheating the rubber impeller. I do (at least at times) get water flow through the system with the engine off. This MUST be due to a siphon effect. I can't swear that it happens when I am having the overheating problem. You should have a vented loop somewhere in the system to prevent siphoning when the engine is off. I don't know how your engine is plumbed but most systems have a vented loop between the engine and the exhaust elbow. The top of the loop is above the waterline with a vent to some distance above the loop. If you don't have this it is likely that sooner or later you will fill the exhaust hose and then the engine with salt water.... which is a headache that aspirin won't cure :-) Well I now have one MORE thing to put on my summer to do list. Make sure strainer is below water level. Ideally the system from thru-hull thru the pump will be under water and self priming. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"hpeer" wrote in message ... This particular water pump is on a little shaft on the back of the engine. I suppose the pump could be failing to turn intermittently, I had not considered that possibility. Seems kinda far fetched, but then again this whole problem feels weird. I have had this trouble on a petrol engine in my 22' motorboat and the cause lay in the rubber impeller in the pump. It is easy to examine the impeller and, seeing no wear on the ends of the lobes, to conclude that it is Ok for further service. However after some time the rubber goes soft and this means that the lobes cannot spring back quick enough after passing the cam to allow water to come in through the inlet. You may get away with a soft impeller at low speeds but when you increase revs you will lose suction.. Also, with a soft impeller the pump becomes more sensitive to back pressure, which in extreme cases can allow back leakage past the ends of the lobes. Your system seems likely to create quite a bit of back pressure especially if the taps you have in the system are not gate valves or ball valves which allow full bore passage through them. You need this sorted out quickly because you are salt water cooled and every time you get temperatures over 140 degrees deposits will come out of solution and ultimately cause severe problems. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
In message , Edgar
writes "hpeer" wrote in message m... This particular water pump is on a little shaft on the back of the engine. I suppose the pump could be failing to turn intermittently, I had not considered that possibility. Seems kinda far fetched, but then again this whole problem feels weird. I have had this trouble on a petrol engine in my 22' motorboat and the cause lay in the rubber impeller in the pump. It is easy to examine the impeller and, seeing no wear on the ends of the lobes, to conclude that it is Ok for further service. However after some time the rubber goes soft and this means that the lobes cannot spring back quick enough after passing the cam to allow water to come in through the inlet. You may get away with a soft impeller at low speeds but when you increase revs you will lose suction.. Also, with a soft impeller the pump becomes more sensitive to back pressure, which in extreme cases can allow back leakage past the ends of the lobes. Your system seems likely to create quite a bit of back pressure especially if the taps you have in the system are not gate valves or ball valves which allow full bore passage through them. You need this sorted out quickly because you are salt water cooled and every time you get temperatures over 140 degrees deposits will come out of solution and ultimately cause severe problems. Another problem I have had with impellers is - they look OK, but the central bronze part becomes un-bonded from the rubber, and starts to spin without turning the rubber. This might be intermittent by having different friction at different speeds. -- Spike |
Volvo MD7A overheating
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:50 -0800 (PST),
wrote: This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf Probably because their strainer has a plastic top (polycarbonate) which I regard as unseaworthy. Proper marine strainers look like this: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...l/page515.html |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:50 -0800 (PST), wrote: This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf Yes it does but I can see no reason for it. To clean the filter you turn the sea cock off so that can't be the reason Yes it can be, but it probably isn't the only reason. Doing it this way means you don't *have to* close the seacock when cleaning the filter, although it is of course good practice to do so anyway. If the strainer is mounted above the waterline, then it's easier to see whether it even needs cleaning, without having to bend down and put your head and an inspection lamp into a difficult to get at space. A few more reasons: (1) If the strainer lid leaks slightly (this should never happen, but it could), then if it's below the waterline you will get water coming into the boat unless you close the seacock every time you stop the engine (and if you do that, you have to remember to open it every time you start the engine). Most people don't do that, they only close seacocks when leaving the boat unattended for a prolonged period (more than a few hours). (2) If the strainer is mounted above the waterline, it's likely to be in a more visible position, and will have some air in the top. This makes it easy to tell visually how well the pump is sucking, from the gush of water coming up the feed pipe and splashing against the underside of the strainer lid. This is sometimes easier than looking for water coming out of the exhaust. (3) If it's ever necessary to prime the pump manually, this is more easily done if it's above the pump: just open the strainer lid and pour water in. and the way it is specified every engine start is with a dry impeller in the pump. This is not actually true. Typically the hose from strainer to pump is always full of water, and so is part (maybe half) of the strainer body. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:50 -0800 (PST), wrote: This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf Probably because their strainer has a plastic top (polycarbonate) which I regard as unseaworthy. Proper marine strainers look like this: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...l/page515.html The removable glass cyclinders don't look much less seaworthy. If you want a really proper one, get one which is all bronze, like this: http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/Pum...isherman-Model |
Volvo MD7A overheating
In message , hpeer
writes I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? You've had many replies - and good clues to look for. Whilst at it, I would look at your flexible exhaust - if this has laminated and partially blocked the exit it will cause overheating. And it likely has laminated if you've overheated.. -- Keith replace nospam with ilf0rd |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:50 -0800 (PST), wrote: This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf MW Yes it does but I can see no reason for it. To clean the filter you turn the sea cock off so that can't be the reason and the way it is specified every engine start is with a dry impeller in the pump. Doesn't make sense to me... unless you like to change pump impellers. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) My strainer is well above the water line, and I don't have to turn off the seacock to clean the strainer. The out from the strainer holds water against the impeller, so it's never without a water start... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
... Wayne.B wrote: On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:50 -0800 (PST), wrote: This installation diagram from Vetus on their water strainer specifically shows that the strainer be at least 15cm / 6" ABOVE the waterline. http://www.vetusweb.com/manuals/file...01%2007-07.pdf Probably because their strainer has a plastic top (polycarbonate) which I regard as unseaworthy. Proper marine strainers look like this: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...l/page515.html The removable glass cyclinders don't look much less seaworthy. If you want a really proper one, get one which is all bronze, like this: http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/Pum...isherman-Model Maybe, but then you can't see what's going on without opening it up. With the clear one, you can see if there's debris with the engine running. Can't imagine what would break the glass in anything other than extraordinary circumstances. Then, you probably have bigger problems anyway. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Capt. JG wrote:
"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message ... Wayne.B wrote: Probably because their strainer has a plastic top (polycarbonate) which I regard as unseaworthy. Proper marine strainers look like this: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...l/page515.html The removable glass cyclinders don't look much less [un]seaworthy. If you want a really proper one, get one which is all bronze, like this: http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/Pum...isherman-Model Maybe, but then you can't see what's going on without opening it up. With the clear one, you can see if there's debris with the engine running. True. Can't imagine what would break the glass in anything other than extraordinary circumstances. Then, you probably have bigger problems anyway. Well, I would imagine that anything which would break the polycarbonate would also break the glass. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
hpeer wrote:
I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard With that history, the impeller is almost certainly junk. Replace it every three years minimum or after *any* serious overheat. If you've got a delaminated hose, its interior may be collapsing under suction with nothing visible on the outside, blocking all flow. It will spring back when the engine is off, either immediately or when disturbed. With an intermittant problem like this, replace *all* hoses between the intake and the water pump if there is *any* sign of distortion or they are over about 5 years old with suction rated hose. The collapse would be triggered by a momentary obstruction e.g. a plastic bag or clump of seaweed over the intake which washes clear as soon as the hose collapses. On many engines removing the thermostat *will* result in cooling problems. Any bypass type thermostat *MUST* be in place for proper cooling and even a direct flow thermostat (only two ports on its chamber) can give trouble if missing. A seawater thermostat is easy enough to test in a pan of water on the stove so deep sixing it was not so smart. In an emergency, for a direct flow system, snipping out the central plunger will let you make a long motor passage to reach port with a failed thermostat, but if totally removed you should consider it harbour use only. Some engines will run happily with no thermostat but it all depends on the design of the water jacket and should *never* be counted on). For a bypass thermostat (3 port chamber) in an emergency either wedge it wide open, or you have to plug the bypass hoze. I belive your thermostat housing has a 1/4 inch bypass port and I have heard that it also doesn't seal properly without a thermostat in. It doesn't matter if the strainer is below or slightly above the water line so long as its absolutely air tight, and there is more water volume in the hose to the water pump than the volume of the strainer + the volume of that part of the intake above the waterline. Its going to have a bubble anyway and if you really want to be able to quickly visually check the flow in a large clear lidded strainer put a pingpong ball in there, ideally with half of it coloured black in sectors to make it easier to see it move. Personally I'd prefer below the waterline, with a nylon or marelon pipe coupler to join its intake and outlet hoses cable-tied to it for emergency repairs. The standup bronze one on the seacock, you can just shove a tapered bung into which should be there anyway. No air leaks or restrictions other than the strainer can be tolerated at all between the intake and the pump. You should remove the tap to the bilge and the galley and connect direct to the seacock. If the problem is solved, I *might* consider reconnecting the bilge pickup, but the amount of emergency seawater pumping this gives you is minimal and a large mechanically or electrically driven pump would be a far better idea. You can even get a dewatering pump that permanently clamps round your propshaft and acts as a bilge blower as long as the water is below its housing. Google 'Ericson Safety Pump'. Unless one has a seawater manifold with an intake of at least 3 times the total area of *all* pipes off it, it is an extremely bad idea to tee *anything* off the engine cooling intake. The additional risk due to a properly installed and maintained seacock for the galley in a protected location is negligible, and it can be easily and properly fitted in a couple of hour yourself for less than a affordable meal out for two. If you are concerned about cooling flow, one of the simplest ways of monitoring it is to run a small bore pipe from the vent spigot on a non-valved vented loop between the engine and the injection elbow to a little telltale just over one of the cockpit drains, NOT an external through hull, so you can see there is adequate cooling at any time. If, as I do, you have a bronze strainer with wing nuts (actually wing bolts on mine), keep some spares. The one time you are under pressure to clear it, you'll loose a nut down the bildge. . . :-( You've probably got a partially blocked water jacket on the manifold or block. It will require acid flushing. I've had good results with a formic acid based kettle descaler which is less aggressive than the hydrochloric acid based products so safer for pumps, thermostats etc. There are various methods of flushing ranging from a static soak followed by hoseing out to running the engine while circulating the acid solution, best ask here for further advice. A dilute Phosphoric acid (Jenolite or milk stone remover) flush after you've got the rust and lime out will convert remaining rust to Iron Phosphate, reducing the risk of further rusting. Volvo used to recommend inhibiting the cooling system with a soluable oil when laying up. P.S. there is an engine workshop manual he http://www.bluemoment.com/manuals/Vo...A_Workshop.pdf |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
m... Capt. JG wrote: "Ronald Raygun" wrote in message ... Wayne.B wrote: Probably because their strainer has a plastic top (polycarbonate) which I regard as unseaworthy. Proper marine strainers look like this: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...l/page515.html The removable glass cyclinders don't look much less [un]seaworthy. If you want a really proper one, get one which is all bronze, like this: http://www.gaelforcemarine.co.uk/Pum...isherman-Model Maybe, but then you can't see what's going on without opening it up. With the clear one, you can see if there's debris with the engine running. True. Can't imagine what would break the glass in anything other than extraordinary circumstances. Then, you probably have bigger problems anyway. Well, I would imagine that anything which would break the polycarbonate would also break the glass. In my case, the strainer is about chest high when I'm standing in the cabin. It's just behind the forward firewall above the top of the steps just to port of the sink. It would take a lot to break it from the firewall side. On the engine side of the strainer, there's open space above the engine. Probably my biggest concern is bumping it when I completely remove a small drawer above the top step, but it's a minor concern. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Keith wrote:
Whilst at it, I would look at your flexible exhaust - if this has laminated and partially blocked the exit it will cause overheating. And it likely has laminated if you've overheated.. With respect, DEELAMINATED. Laminated is sticking something together in layers, delaminated is when they come apart. You'll also get horrible black smoke at full throttle if the exhaust is significantly restricted. The water trap (water lift muffler) may also be damaged by overheating and causing a blockage, but in the absense of symptoms like limited power and smoke, I'd suspect something upstream of the exhaust first. Some designs of injection elbow are prone to blicking by rust flakes. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
In article ,
hpeer wrote: I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. Any clues? My Yanmar started overheating (according to the gauge anyway) and after stripping it all down, I finally found a tiny hole in the raw water jacket into the exhaust manifold. Does your fresh water level go down when it overheats? -- Molesworth |
Volvo MD7A overheating
"IanM" wrote in message .. snipped. If the problem is solved, I *might* consider reconnecting the bilge pickup, but the amount of emergency seawater pumping this gives you is minimal and a large mechanically or electrically driven pump would be a far better idea. more snippage I think using the engine pump on bilge water is a very bad idea, not just , as you say, that the quantity pumped is minimal, but also because all sorts of crud lie in bilges and do you really want to pump such 'stuff' through you engine? Maybe you will create a blockage that will be a real PITA to clear. Also, unless you are in a position to sit there watching and turn back the cock to sea water inlet at the precise moment before the bilge suction sucks air you are going to send a lot of air into your engine which will create local overheating and maybe an air lock or even a steam lock and maybe crack the cylinder head when the cold water finally comes through. I agree with your suggestion of an entirely seperate bilge pump of adequate capacity. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Nigel Molesworth wrote:
In article , hpeer wrote: I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. Any clues? My Yanmar started overheating (according to the gauge anyway) and after stripping it all down, I finally found a tiny hole in the raw water jacket into the exhaust manifold. Does your fresh water level go down when it overheats? Raw water cooling so, no. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
Edgar wrote:
"IanM" wrote in message .. snipped. If the problem is solved, I *might* consider reconnecting the bilge pickup, but the amount of emergency seawater pumping this gives you is minimal and a large mechanically or electrically driven pump would be a far better idea. more snippage I think using the engine pump on bilge water is a very bad idea, not just , as you say, that the quantity pumped is minimal, but also because all sorts of crud lie in bilges and do you really want to pump such 'stuff' through you engine? Maybe you will create a blockage that will be a real PITA to clear. Also, unless you are in a position to sit there watching and turn back the cock to sea water inlet at the precise moment before the bilge suction sucks air you are going to send a lot of air into your engine which will create local overheating and maybe an air lock or even a steam lock and maybe crack the cylinder head when the cold water finally comes through. I agree with your suggestion of an entirely seperate bilge pump of adequate capacity. Agreed on all points about the bilge pickup being used as a bilge pickup. I ONLY ever use it as a way to put in anti-freeze during layup. |
Volvo MD7A overheating
IanM wrote:
hpeer wrote: I have Volvo MD7A, 13 hp two cylinder unit with salt water cooling. Runs perfectly with one exception, it occasionally overheats and I can't figure out what the heck is going on. I bought the boat used and the previous owner had fitter her out himself. Every time she overheats, I find something to "fix" after which she is fine for a spell then she will overheat again. Clearly I'm not getting to the root cause. Generally she will seem to be running along just fine and all of a sudden the pressure gauge just goes up, up, up. It seems to be a bi-state kind of thing, it either works perfectly well or not at all. Its almost as if there is a ball valve or something somewhere that is sticking. It's obviously not a bad gage. The plumbing goes like this: Through hull fitting Salt water strainer Tap to the transmission/engine Tap to secondary pick up from bilge Tap to sinks Here is some of the history and what I had done, in each case I have also checked/changed the impeller. They usually look just perfect. 1: Recently fitted salt water strainer seemed to be blocked with debris from its construction. It is home built out of some interlocking pieces of PVC pipe, the inner piece has a zillion small holes drilled in it. I dumped this stuff out and she was fine. 2: Found a small leak in the copper pipe from the transmission to the impeller. I thought that maybe it was sucking in air and the impeller was getting air bound. Repaired the leak. 3: Moved and lowered the salt water strainer. This was mounted pretty high on a bulkhead with real long hoses. I moved it to the engine compartment and lowered it. I thought that maybe there was just too much suction head to get the water going. 4: Threw thermostat overboard. Any clues? Many thanks, Howard With that history, the impeller is almost certainly junk. Replace it every three years minimum or after *any* serious overheat. If you've got a delaminated hose, its interior may be collapsing under suction with nothing visible on the outside, blocking all flow. It will spring back when the engine is off, either immediately or when disturbed. With an intermittant problem like this, replace *all* hoses between the intake and the water pump if there is *any* sign of distortion or they are over about 5 years old with suction rated hose. The collapse would be triggered by a momentary obstruction e.g. a plastic bag or clump of seaweed over the intake which washes clear as soon as the hose collapses. On many engines removing the thermostat *will* result in cooling problems. Any bypass type thermostat *MUST* be in place for proper cooling and even a direct flow thermostat (only two ports on its chamber) can give trouble if missing. A seawater thermostat is easy enough to test in a pan of water on the stove so deep sixing it was not so smart. In an emergency, for a direct flow system, snipping out the central plunger will let you make a long motor passage to reach port with a failed thermostat, but if totally removed you should consider it harbour use only. Some engines will run happily with no thermostat but it all depends on the design of the water jacket and should *never* be counted on). For a bypass thermostat (3 port chamber) in an emergency either wedge it wide open, or you have to plug the bypass hoze. I belive your thermostat housing has a 1/4 inch bypass port and I have heard that it also doesn't seal properly without a thermostat in. It doesn't matter if the strainer is below or slightly above the water line so long as its absolutely air tight, and there is more water volume in the hose to the water pump than the volume of the strainer + the volume of that part of the intake above the waterline. Its going to have a bubble anyway and if you really want to be able to quickly visually check the flow in a large clear lidded strainer put a pingpong ball in there, ideally with half of it coloured black in sectors to make it easier to see it move. Personally I'd prefer below the waterline, with a nylon or marelon pipe coupler to join its intake and outlet hoses cable-tied to it for emergency repairs. The standup bronze one on the seacock, you can just shove a tapered bung into which should be there anyway. No air leaks or restrictions other than the strainer can be tolerated at all between the intake and the pump. You should remove the tap to the bilge and the galley and connect direct to the seacock. If the problem is solved, I *might* consider reconnecting the bilge pickup, but the amount of emergency seawater pumping this gives you is minimal and a large mechanically or electrically driven pump would be a far better idea. You can even get a dewatering pump that permanently clamps round your propshaft and acts as a bilge blower as long as the water is below its housing. Google 'Ericson Safety Pump'. Unless one has a seawater manifold with an intake of at least 3 times the total area of *all* pipes off it, it is an extremely bad idea to tee *anything* off the engine cooling intake. The additional risk due to a properly installed and maintained seacock for the galley in a protected location is negligible, and it can be easily and properly fitted in a couple of hour yourself for less than a affordable meal out for two. If you are concerned about cooling flow, one of the simplest ways of monitoring it is to run a small bore pipe from the vent spigot on a non-valved vented loop between the engine and the injection elbow to a little telltale just over one of the cockpit drains, NOT an external through hull, so you can see there is adequate cooling at any time. If, as I do, you have a bronze strainer with wing nuts (actually wing bolts on mine), keep some spares. The one time you are under pressure to clear it, you'll loose a nut down the bildge. . . :-( You've probably got a partially blocked water jacket on the manifold or block. It will require acid flushing. I've had good results with a formic acid based kettle descaler which is less aggressive than the hydrochloric acid based products so safer for pumps, thermostats etc. There are various methods of flushing ranging from a static soak followed by hoseing out to running the engine while circulating the acid solution, best ask here for further advice. A dilute Phosphoric acid (Jenolite or milk stone remover) flush after you've got the rust and lime out will convert remaining rust to Iron Phosphate, reducing the risk of further rusting. Volvo used to recommend inhibiting the cooling system with a soluable oil when laying up. P.S. there is an engine workshop manual he http://www.bluemoment.com/manuals/Vo...A_Workshop.pdf Thanks for the long and detailed response. Many good points to ponder and things to sort out. Adding the extra thru hull may be something I need to do but I hate the idea of it. And also, it is a steel boat. The thing that drives me crazy is that it is just so darn intermittent. It can run for hours and hours (day and days even) perfectly and then, in an instant, the temp goes up. You can see it rise. I've gotten to the point of dreading to run the engine for I now end up constantly staring at the temp gage. The aggravation takes out all joy. |
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I have an MD7A vintage 1977 with salt water cooling and began to get white smoke and overheating at RPM over 1000. Problem ultimately traced to partially clogged input to water pump. Removed right angle pipe fitting on starboard side of transmission and removed crud from inside transmission while blowing water through from water hose into port side of transmission. You should be able to pour water thru here freely. This solved the problem so that without thermosat in place the temperature never went off the bottom of the gage. Then replaced thermostat and got steady 140 degree temperature.
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