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inexpensive diesel engines
Somehow I found this site:
http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html that lists a 20 hp diesel for $3250, a real bargain for a new engine compared to most diesels for boats. These are low rpm diesels that can run on vegetable oil and are very efficient. So, what would you do for a transmission? Maybe you could use a belt with an idler pulley that was lever controlled. Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Maybe the engine has a speed control, I dunno. Reverse would be a real problem. These look heavy but just cool as hell. I love simple stuff, great engineering. |
inexpensive diesel engines
wrote in message ... Somehow I found this site: http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html that lists a 20 hp diesel for $3250, a real bargain for a new engine compared to most diesels for boats. These are low rpm diesels that can run on vegetable oil and are very efficient. So, what would you do for a transmission? Maybe you could use a belt with an idler pulley that was lever controlled. Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Maybe the engine has a speed control, I dunno. Reverse would be a real problem. These look heavy but just cool as hell. I love simple stuff, great engineering. Looks a lot like some of the old 1 lunger diesels in the Monterey fishing boats and some of the other commercial boats in the 1950's. |
inexpensive diesel engines
wrote in news:df918b70-350c-4fa7-80a1-
: Somehow I found this site: http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html that lists a 20 hp diesel for $3250, a real bargain for a new engine compared to most diesels for boats. These are low rpm diesels that can run on vegetable oil and are very efficient. So, what would you do for a transmission? Maybe you could use a belt with an idler pulley that was lever controlled. Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Maybe the engine has a speed control, I dunno. Reverse would be a real problem. These look heavy but just cool as hell. I love simple stuff, great engineering. http://tinyurl.com/create.php Pep Boys Auto Parts had this 6KW diesel genset, electric start, quiet cabinet, ISO900x certified, painted yellow but from this Chinese company, for $1599 last fall. I'm running 2 diesel cars and a V-8 diesel stepvan on used frying oil from Chinese restaurants, so decided to buy one for the house in case of hurricanes here in Charleston. It's a great little genset, 120/240 60 Hz for the American market. It turns 3600 RPM from its 1 cyl OHC 4-stroke diesel and runs a LONG time on a single fueling. Its only headache is its WEIGHT! The Chinese now seem to have VAST resources of HEAVY STEEL and aren't afraid to USE IT in their products. It has wheels for a reason. None is going to carry it off without a fight...(c; The cylinder, for instance, isn't a cast iron sleeve in an aluminum case...It's a CAST IRON CYLINDER, the old fashioned way! There's a compression release so you can hand crank it with the included crank handle if the battery goes dead. Even comes with a little AGM starting battery you can't pronounce. I ran it on diesel for the first 20 hours to make sure it wasn't going to be a return problem, but have migrated it, now, to my cooking oil soup of 1 quart of mineral spirits mixed with 20 gallons of cooking oil and it cranks right up. Whenever I crank it, my smartassed neighbor shows up with his drop cord, the price I have to pay to run it 24/7 in emergencies...(c; I'll even have 220VAC hot water.... Larry -- Merry Christmas! http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_NhFS4xEE |
inexpensive diesel engines
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:13:03 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote: Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Only by allowing varying ammounts of belt slippage. You would get very poor belt life. I have seen this kind of setup, My dad built a lawn tractor with that kind of clutch. Had a transmission from the flap mechanism on a B-17. It had only 3 horse or so. Casady |
inexpensive diesel engines
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:13:03 -0800, "Calif Bill" wrote: Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Only by allowing varying ammounts of belt slippage. You would get very poor belt life. I have seen this kind of setup, My dad built a lawn tractor with that kind of clutch. Had a transmission from the flap mechanism on a B-17. It had only 3 horse or so. Casady Get your attributes correct. And there are variable transmissions for belts. Some automatic according to speed. Variable width pullies. One gets wider while the other gets narrower giving a bigger diameter. |
inexpensive diesel engines
Subject
Talk about mutually exclusive terms. Lew |
inexpensive diesel engines
Calif Bill wrote:
"Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:13:03 -0800, "Calif Bill" wrote: Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Only by allowing varying ammounts of belt slippage. You would get very poor belt life. I have seen this kind of setup, My dad built a lawn tractor with that kind of clutch. Had a transmission from the flap mechanism on a B-17. It had only 3 horse or so. Casady Get your attributes correct. And there are variable transmissions for belts. Some automatic according to speed. Variable width pullies. One gets wider while the other gets narrower giving a bigger diameter. Correct... CVTs (continuously variable transmissions) are being used in cars currently on the market. My Honda Civic Hybrid has one for example. Take a look at: http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...4/article.html Brian C |
inexpensive diesel engines
Brian Cleverly wrote in
: CVTs (continuously variable transmissions) are being used in cars currently on the market. My Honda Civic Hybrid has one for example. My 250cc Honda Reflex motor scooter has a variable V-belt drive on it. The pulleys are about 6" in diameter and have two sets of 3 weights in them that are rollers. When the pulleys come up to speed, geared to the rear wheel, one set of weights flies out at around 40 mph. The second, lighter set, flies out around 50. This is dependent on how much throttle you feed it, how much power it's transmitting to the wheel. If you are easy on it, it, the ratio changes more quickly than if you are harder on it, which puts pressure on the V-belt and keeps the pulley apart (like lower gear) making the transitions come on later at higher speeds. There's a clutch inside the engine that applies power to the v-belt drive around 2200 RPM, 1800 RPM is idle on the 1-cyl, 250CC, OHV, 4-stroke engine you can hardly hear run or feel in the handlebars. It's a beautiful piece of engineering, very simple in design. Honda spoils it all by trying to get $83.16 plus tax out of the damned common small 18mm v-belt it runs on. It took me a while to get the specs on the belt, having to threaten them with a Magnusson-Moss legal action if they required me to use only their way-overpriced OEM belt. I got a better belt than the cheaply made OEM one for $11.29 at Advance Auto, a more reasonable price. It's double-cogged, steel cored. I'll change it when Honda says at 12,000 miles. I built the pulley removal tool already from a website on the net. I'm also playing around with different WIDTH belts, which will change the gear ratio of the system. Wider belts will run at lower ratios, increasing mileage past the 80 mpg I'm getting now at the expense of takeoff power, which at 62 years old doesn't impress me like it used to...(c; I'm looking for the LONG RUN on the engine, even though it's a Honda. I remember Dutch-made DAF cars from the 50's and 60's that had two belts with a central cross-shaft drives on them. Their pulleys varied in width, too, on v-belts. The belts were LONG as I think the cars were rear-wheel-drive. Belt drive is nothing new. The Honda Silver Wing 600cc scooter also has v-belt automatic drive. I rode one but didn't like so much engine weight in the back. It's really stern heavy. The 250cc will go about 85 mph on its rev limiter. That's probably fast enough around the city....(c; Larry -- Honda red, of course, just like my Honda 305 Dream was....(c; |
inexpensive diesel engines
Run it as a generator and use it to charge an oversized bank of batteries.
With an electric motor you will gain variable speed and direction without have an engineering nightmare. "Calif Bill" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Somehow I found this site: http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html that lists a 20 hp diesel for $3250, a real bargain for a new engine compared to most diesels for boats. These are low rpm diesels that can run on vegetable oil and are very efficient. So, what would you do for a transmission? Maybe you could use a belt with an idler pulley that was lever controlled. Tension on the idler pulley would sorta regulate the speed. Maybe the engine has a speed control, I dunno. Reverse would be a real problem. These look heavy but just cool as hell. I love simple stuff, great engineering. Looks a lot like some of the old 1 lunger diesels in the Monterey fishing boats and some of the other commercial boats in the 1950's. |
inexpensive diesel engines
John C. wrote:
Run it as a generator and use it to charge an oversized bank of batteries. With an electric motor you will gain variable speed and direction without have an engineering nightmare. I have been speculating about a diesel-electric propulsion for a smallish sailboat. Does anyone have links to, or experience with, small electric motors that are suitable for continuous use - most of my googling finds bow thrusters and other extra machinery. I am thinking of a fairly small engine, say 5-10 Hp, to be used mostly in manouvering in and out of marinas, and occasionally coming home from a calm sea. Would it make sense to mount the whole engine on the transom-hung rudder? That way it could turn with the rudder, and give good steering in both directions. When not in use, it could be lifted out of the water, so I could use a decent size of propeller for it. Would anyone care to shoot the idea down before I get too attached to it. The whole project is on a dreaming level, I won't be building anything for the next many years. But I still want to design it as if I was going to build it some day soon... Regards Heikki (Copenhagen, Denmark) |
inexpensive diesel engines
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:50:00 +0100 Heikki
) wrote: John C. wrote: Run it as a generator and use it to charge an oversized bank of batteries. With an electric motor you will gain variable speed and direction without have an engineering nightmare. I have been speculating about a diesel-electric propulsion for a smallish sailboat. Does anyone have links to, or experience with, small electric motors that are suitable for continuous use - most of my googling finds bow thrusters and other extra machinery. I am thinking of a fairly small engine, say 5-10 Hp, to be used mostly in manouvering in and out of marinas, and occasionally coming home from a calm sea. Would it make sense to mount the whole engine on the transom-hung rudder? That way it could turn with the rudder, and give good steering in both directions. When not in use, it could be lifted out of the water, so I could use a decent size of propeller for it. Would anyone care to shoot the idea down before I get too attached to it. The whole project is on a dreaming level, I won't be building anything for the next many years. But I still want to design it as if I was going to build it some day soon... Regular outboards do have a fair weight/hp compared to e-motor and batteries. The only thin you have to worry about is fuel. Or how did you plan to fill your batteries? -- Richard e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net |
inexpensive diesel engines
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:50:00 +0100, Heikki wrote:
John C. wrote: Run it as a generator and use it to charge an oversized bank of batteries. With an electric motor you will gain variable speed and direction without have an engineering nightmare. I have been speculating about a diesel-electric propulsion for a smallish sailboat. Does anyone have links to, or experience with, small electric motors that are suitable for continuous use - most of my googling finds bow thrusters and other extra machinery. There are electric fishing motors, in the one horsepower or less class. Maybe enough power for an under twenty foot boat. Not good on a windy day. I am thinking of a fairly small engine, say 5-10 Hp, to be used mostly in manouvering in and out of marinas, and occasionally coming home from a calm sea. Would it make sense to mount the whole engine on the transom-hung rudder? That way it could turn with the rudder, and give good steering in both directions. When not in use, it could be lifted out of the water, so I could use a decent size of propeller for it. There is the tried and true outboard motor. Hanging stuff on the rudder sounds like a poor approach to me. Not to mention ugly. Would anyone care to shoot the idea down before I get too attached to it. Shouldn't be too hard. Casady |
inexpensive diesel engines
Richard van den Berg wrote:
Regular outboards do have a fair weight/hp compared to e-motor and batteries. The only thin you have to worry about is fuel. Or how did you plan to fill your batteries? Oh, I was planning to have a diesel engine (and a generator) running most of the time to provide the electricity. The idea was to be able to place the generator engine where I wanted it, and the propelller(s) and the driving engine where they would be most useful. Instead of a solid shaft, I would have flexible cables in between. I could run it on the batteries for a minutes, if I needed extra manouvering, but in most cases, the power would come from the generator. Also, I was hoping that the electric propulsion would be smaller and lighter, so it would be easier to lift out of the water when going by sail... - Heikki |
inexpensive diesel engines
Look into golf cart motors. Consider duty cycle and run times with respect
to motor choice and battery bank size. Larger engines can be found in the fork truck industry. Both the golf cart and fork truck would provide speed and direction controls as well as basic mounting design. Your small diesel generator may need to run much longer than your motor and or you will require dockside recharging and use the diesel as back and top-off while at sea. Keeping the generator output close to the energy needs of the motor will increase the overall efficiency of the system. It would be useless to require 4 hours of charging to produce the energy needed for 15 minutes of motoring unless the battery bank was large enough to carry reserve energy in far excess of your typical needs. The primary charge would then come from dockside sources and your generator would be always on stand by. There is a lot of info on the net about hybrid electric craft. You just need to apply the information to your specific application. "Richard Casady" wrote in message ... On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:50:00 +0100, Heikki wrote: John C. wrote: Run it as a generator and use it to charge an oversized bank of batteries. With an electric motor you will gain variable speed and direction without have an engineering nightmare. I have been speculating about a diesel-electric propulsion for a smallish sailboat. Does anyone have links to, or experience with, small electric motors that are suitable for continuous use - most of my googling finds bow thrusters and other extra machinery. There are electric fishing motors, in the one horsepower or less class. Maybe enough power for an under twenty foot boat. Not good on a windy day. I am thinking of a fairly small engine, say 5-10 Hp, to be used mostly in manouvering in and out of marinas, and occasionally coming home from a calm sea. Would it make sense to mount the whole engine on the transom-hung rudder? That way it could turn with the rudder, and give good steering in both directions. When not in use, it could be lifted out of the water, so I could use a decent size of propeller for it. There is the tried and true outboard motor. Hanging stuff on the rudder sounds like a poor approach to me. Not to mention ugly. Would anyone care to shoot the idea down before I get too attached to it. Shouldn't be too hard. Casady |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
Gawlea!
Shore sounds like a job for two or even three trolling motors in wells, two aft and one foreward. Azipods! Hanging propellors off the ends of the boat is a sure way to whip up the air while props are out of the water in waves. I would use the one foreward, mostly, for easy days marina docking, etc. Should be able to steer it from the v berth in the sun or rain, or remotely, or lock it and and raise it and plug the hole when ready to sail. A fishguard bottom plate could be affixed beneath the prop for maximum convenience and trouble free transformations. A one foot lift might retract the prop and smooth the bottom. If located foreward in the cockpit, it might sit next to the bridge deck step and be innocuous raised or lowered. With two after azipods, crabwise docking could become an exercise in balance, pushing a keel sideways and providing some redundancy. Using all three might permit all sorts. No tranny saves weight for batteries. The generator you will need anyway, if it is a little larger. Spatial accommodations could benefit, if range might suffer, as if fuel economy were most important on a sail boat. With wind no motor is needed, if tradition tells anything. With no wind, auxiliary drive is just that. 3/4 hull speed is very economical. Sailing is an adventure, fun, not many of our livings nor sustenance nor work, but joy and pleasure only. As with golf (I am told) the longer time spent at it the better. Now, if one azipod could charge batteries under sail, you might subsist with solar cells... The windage design of the topsides must accommodate low power manouvering under power or in a breeze. A well balanced low drag topsides plan should be utilized. A comparatively low elevation would be best, as it is in any sailing vessel. I kind of like the idea of raised deck and hull side portlights (a glass bottom?) as opposed to a dog house. Will you ever want for air conditioning? Possibly using one of the wells, a stovepipe heat exchanger with only a small automotive heater radiator underwater and ducted air tubes could provide basic survival cooling. It would stow for sailing, being plugged in and deployed overboard for overnight comfort at anchor. A sump dip tube for the bottom of the stovepipe overboard would evacuate condensed humidity scavenged from the recirculated cabin air. An air to air heat exchanger would provide fresh ventilation. It won't make ice, but such a system could defend your sweaty sanity and restlessness on a muggy night with little weight or energy penalty, requiring only a small fan for air circulation. I can almost envision such an air conditioner in a bag, like a kayak. As well, using an azipod well for a "stick in the mud" anchor, as used on the junks of the Yangtze, might be an additional bonus. Ain't it wonderful, the way one small decision regarding an auxiliary powerplant can affect so many options? Terry K |
inexpensive diesel engines
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 04:35:35 +0100 Heikki
) wrote: Richard van den Berg wrote: Regular outboards do have a fair weight/hp compared to e-motor and batteries. The only thin you have to worry about is fuel. Or how did you plan to fill your batteries? Oh, I was planning to have a diesel engine (and a generator) running most of the time to provide the electricity. The idea was to be able to place the generator engine where I wanted it, and the propelller(s) and the driving engine where they would be most useful. Instead of a solid shaft, I would have flexible cables in between. I could run it on the batteries for a minutes, if I needed extra manouvering, but in most cases, the power would come from the generator. Also, I was hoping that the electric propulsion would be smaller and lighter, so it would be easier to lift out of the water when going by sail... For 1 kW (1,34 hp) you can count on about 10 kg motor weight for standard 3 fase 2900 rpm motors. For a lighter motor you might use one with a permanent magnet, no idea what it will cost. -- Richard e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net |
inexpensive diesel engines
Richard van den Berg wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 04:35:35 +0100 Heikki ) wrote: Richard van den Berg wrote: Regular outboards do have a fair weight/hp compared to e-motor and batteries. The only thin you have to worry about is fuel. Or how did you plan to fill your batteries? Oh, I was planning to have a diesel engine (and a generator) running most of the time to provide the electricity. The idea was to be able to place the generator engine where I wanted it, and the propelller(s) and the driving engine where they would be most useful. Instead of a solid shaft, I would have flexible cables in between. I could run it on the batteries for a minutes, if I needed extra manouvering, but in most cases, the power would come from the generator. Also, I was hoping that the electric propulsion would be smaller and lighter, so it would be easier to lift out of the water when going by sail... For 1 kW (1,34 hp) you can count on about 10 kg motor weight for standard 3 fase 2900 rpm motors. For a lighter motor you might use one with a permanent magnet, no idea what it will cost. Well, it certainly makes no sense to hook up a small diesel engine to a prop shaft and prop. After all, it's never been tried before. |
inexpensive diesel engines
On Dec 16, 1:07 pm, HK wrote:
Richard van den Berg wrote: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 04:35:35 +0100 Heikki ) wrote: Richard van den Berg wrote: Regular outboards do have a fair weight/hp compared to e-motor and batteries. The only thin you have to worry about is fuel. Or how did you plan to fill your batteries? Oh, I was planning to have a diesel engine (and a generator) running most of the time to provide the electricity. The idea was to be able to place the generator engine where I wanted it, and the propelller(s) and the driving engine where they would be most useful. Instead of a solid shaft, I would have flexible cables in between. I could run it on the batteries for a minutes, if I needed extra manouvering, but in most cases, the power would come from the generator. Also, I was hoping that the electric propulsion would be smaller and lighter, so it would be easier to lift out of the water when going by sail... For 1 kW (1,34 hp) you can count on about 10 kg motor weight for standard 3 fase 2900 rpm motors. For a lighter motor you might use one with a permanent magnet, no idea what it will cost. Well, it certainly makes no sense to hook up a small diesel engine to a prop shaft and prop. After all, it's never been tried before. West (Waste) Marine in their latest catalogue has a 6 hp electric outboard, kinda expensive though. You could run a generator from a small diesel like these Listers and have it charge a bank of batteries that were your sailboat ballast and hav the batteries run your electric outboard. Why carry around a couple thousand lbs of lead ballast unless its going to do something like store electricity. |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:58:39 -0800 (PST), Terry K
wrote: Shore sounds like a job for two or even three trolling motors in wells, two aft and one foreward. Azipods! Hanging propellors off the ends of the boat is a sure way to whip up the air while props are out of the water in waves. I read your post with interest. As for waves, you only mount them, on some kind of bracket, when you are going to use them. The original reason for suggesting them is that they are compact, light, and cheap. My reservations are mostly lack of power. One probably won't get it, two stands a better chance, at least. Casady |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
There's also the torqueedo electric outboard. I see that Jamestown
Dist. is selling those. Not cheap though. |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
Here's an ebay link to thoosa electric motors. They look a bit pricey to
me, start at 15hp for AU$7,500 and go up to 60HP for about AU$10,500. No idea on the quality/usability etc, but i do see this guy advertise on ebay. They look to have a full turnkey system, but I'm thinking to wait another 5-10 years when these things will hopefully get cheap! http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Thoosa-Electr...QQcmdZViewItem Shaun "Todd" wrote in message ... There's also the torqueedo electric outboard. I see that Jamestown Dist. is selling those. Not cheap though. |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
If you need an engine, you would not want it waving about in the air.
Better under the hull as suggested in a well. If you want to steer it, you want in effect, an azipod. Lack of power is relative. 1 or 2 horses will likely give you half hull speed, unless there is wind and waves against you, in which case, I would mostly prefer to sail. So, you want an auxiliary sailboat, or a motor sailer? Or, an expensive diesel electric drive? Or, a motor yacht with auxiliary sails? Terry K |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:15:35 -0800 (PST), Terry K
wrote: If you need an engine, you would not want it waving about in the air. Better under the hull as suggested in a well. If you want to steer it, you want in effect, an azipod. Lack of power is relative. 1 or 2 horses will likely give you half hull speed, unless there is wind and waves against you, in which case, I would mostly prefer to sail. So, you want an auxiliary sailboat, or a motor sailer? Or, an expensive diesel electric drive? Or, a motor yacht with auxiliary sails? There is an ocean crosser motor yacht that comes with a 1200 sq ft Genoa. Casady |
Low power sailing, was inexpensive diesel engines
Terry K wrote:
If you need an engine, you would not want it waving about in the air. Better under the hull as suggested in a well. Thanks for all who responded. Lots of interesting ideas and useful directions for more research. If you want to steer it, you want in effect, an azipod. Or, two engines. How about wells near the forward end of the cockpit, one on each side. With bottom plates, so when pulled up, the hull will be smooth for sailing? Lack of power is relative. 1 or 2 horses will likely give you half hull speed, unless there is wind and waves against you, in which case, I would mostly prefer to sail. That is good to know - I may have been looking for too much power. So, you want an auxiliary sailboat, or a motor sailer? Certainly a sailboat, with just a bit of auxiliary motor power to manouver in and out of marinas. I still like the idea of electric propulsion, it is quiet, and immediately available when needed. It looks like it might be possible to get enough power from batteries, but I probably want a small generator anyway, in case I need to motor in from further out. Planning to do mostly day sailing, with the occasional cruise of a week or two. Starting from Copenhagen, mostly in the Baltic (with a dream of visiting Scotland once) Still, as I said, the whole thing is on the dreaming stage. Perhaps I start serious designing next year, and do my best not to build it... - Heikki |
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