ready to put some boat on my boat
On Jul 11, 5:54 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote: schreef oups.com On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman wrote: There's not all that much content in your post. Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering. I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities. Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood. Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof. I am a boat builder, wooden boats at that. And please read Pauls post above, please. As far as 'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than epoxy. And to suggest I said anything different would be innacurate at best. Although there are many out there I have not used, so I won't guess;) Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time. Waterproof "enough". Now you are starting to understand. But maybe not for the guy who wants to use it to seal a bamboo mast, where is where this discussion started. For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't move with it. How do you engineer that? Epoxy moves just fine in joints. It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are relatively small. Not going to take on this one, I don't have the time or inclination. But trust me, there is much more to that story. I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout. Or allow for escape of aquired (not built on wet wood) moisture and finish with something like paint. And if I am understanding your assumptions, encapsulated boats should last forever, and they don't. Do you build such boats? I do, professionally, have for decades. In fact it is much more pliable than polyester, Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility. So you are telling me to use the right mixes for the job. ok I will;) Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless. Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood. I never said anything like that. I said " I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood". Are you my new troll? Rehtorical question, don't bother. please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about boats. Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy... Well if elaborating on my posts and making up assertions you wish I made is teaching, consider me a disgrunteled student. -- Lodewijk Apologies to those who suffered through this all. JW |
ready to put some boat on my boat
On 11 Jul 2007 21:08:43 GMT, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote: schreef in oups.com On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman wrote: I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if you're so sure it leaks. Have a great day and go build a boat! Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not knowledgeable enough. You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid... There's not all that much content in your post. Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering. I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities. For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't move with it. How do you engineer that? Well, I have seen a large number of boats built of wood and epoxy - strip planked, cold molded and duracore composite all come to mind. These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
ready to put some boat on my boat
Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! One more point I want to make that might help cool things down a bit..... wood expands and contracts with moisture things like epoxy, fiberglass, paint, and just about all other things, expand and contract with temperature. So - wood and the epoxy on it don't expand and contract together... This can cause some of the issues brought up here. Always best to complete seal the wood with epoxy, not just one side. Also, plywood, because of the way it is made etc. expands and contracts very little (at least compared to 'regular' wood). Also epoxies stick really well to most materials and is often considered sort of a universal primer. polyester resin (fiberglass resin) doesn't bond well (or long) to anything but itself (I and my customers report polyester resin to wood bond failures after a few years maybe 10 years at best). This is why fiberglass boats are generally 100% fiberglass and not half fiberglass and half wood (as might/could be the case with epoxy resin). So.... you can repair fiberglass with epoxy but fixing epoxy with fiberglass resin in not recommend (but many folks do and they get away with it). Epoxy resins just have all around better physical properties than polyester resin, but usually cost more. I vaguely recall seeing water absorption numbers for epoxy at something like 1/10 of a percent. Don't ask me where or how I got that number, just something that is floating adrift in my head. cheers everyone paul oman progressive epoxy polymers Lodewijk Stegman wrote: schreef in oups.com On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman wrote: I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if you're so sure it leaks. Have a great day and go build a boat! Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not knowledgeable enough. You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid... There's not all that much content in your post. Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering. I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities. For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't move with it. How do you engineer that? |
ready to put some boat on my boat
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:13:56 GMT, Paul Oman
wrote: Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! One more point I want to make that might help cool things down a bit..... wood expands and contracts with moisture things like epoxy, fiberglass, paint, and just about all other things, expand and contract with temperature. So - wood and the epoxy on it don't expand and contract together... This can cause some of the issues brought up here. Always best to complete seal the wood with epoxy, not just one side. Also, plywood, because of the way it is made etc. expands and contracts very little (at least compared to 'regular' wood). Also epoxies stick really well to most materials and is often considered sort of a universal primer. polyester resin (fiberglass resin) doesn't bond well (or long) to anything but itself (I and my customers report polyester resin to wood bond failures after a few years maybe 10 years at best). This is why fiberglass boats are generally 100% fiberglass and not half fiberglass and half wood (as might/could be the case with epoxy resin). So.... you can repair fiberglass with epoxy but fixing epoxy with fiberglass resin in not recommend (but many folks do and they get away with it). Epoxy resins just have all around better physical properties than polyester resin, but usually cost more. I vaguely recall seeing water absorption numbers for epoxy at something like 1/10 of a percent. Don't ask me where or how I got that number, just something that is floating adrift in my head. cheers everyone paul oman progressive epoxy polymers Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} If you were planning on building a composite potable water tank what would you use to line/paint the inside? I have had several boats that had integral tanks. In one case the tank appeared to have been painted inside with polyester resin and a second boat that appeared to have gel coat on the inside. I am considering building a spare water tank out of plywood, lined and taped with glass, and do not have a big selection of epoxy available here. My thoughts were to go ahead and paint it inside with several coats of epoxy, let it cure for several weeks and then flush it with several/many changes of water. If some form of special, "This stuff is for lining water tanks" resin was available I'd use it but as far as I can discover there is nothing like that available in the country. Thanks for any information you can give me. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
ready to put some boat on my boat
Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} If you were planning on building a composite potable water tank what would you use to line/paint the inside? I have had several boats that had integral tanks. In one case the tank appeared to have been painted inside with polyester resin and a second boat that appeared to have gel coat on the inside. I am considering building a spare water tank out of plywood, lined and taped with glass, and do not have a big selection of epoxy available here. My thoughts were to go ahead and paint it inside with several coats of epoxy, let it cure for several weeks and then flush it with several/many changes of water. If some form of special, "This stuff is for lining water tanks" resin was available I'd use it but as far as I can discover there is nothing like that available in the country. Thanks for any information you can give me. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) --------------- gel coat is just thickened polyester resin. epoxies tested and approved for potable water (NSF 61 approvals) are generally (always????) test /approved for tanks over 1000 gallons or pipelines over 16 inches dia. Some folks don't worry about it, others do...... paul - progressive epoxy polymers |
ready to put some boat on my boat
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:19:56 GMT, Paul Oman
wrote: Ha! Maybe a chance to get me some free information here =;-} If you were planning on building a composite potable water tank what would you use to line/paint the inside? I have had several boats that had integral tanks. In one case the tank appeared to have been painted inside with polyester resin and a second boat that appeared to have gel coat on the inside. I am considering building a spare water tank out of plywood, lined and taped with glass, and do not have a big selection of epoxy available here. My thoughts were to go ahead and paint it inside with several coats of epoxy, let it cure for several weeks and then flush it with several/many changes of water. If some form of special, "This stuff is for lining water tanks" resin was available I'd use it but as far as I can discover there is nothing like that available in the country. Thanks for any information you can give me. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) --------------- gel coat is just thickened polyester resin. epoxies tested and approved for potable water (NSF 61 approvals) are generally (always????) test /approved for tanks over 1000 gallons or pipelines over 16 inches dia. Some folks don't worry about it, others do...... paul - progressive epoxy polymers Thanks, I understand. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom) -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
ready to put some boat on my boat
On Jul 11, 11:13 pm, Paul Oman wrote:
Boy this thread is getting a bit nasty. Calm down guys! One more point I want to make that might help cool things down a bit..... Sorry, I am a nasty guy and I don't like being slandered by some punk kid. I vaguely recall seeing water absorption numbers for epoxy at something like 1/10 of a percent. Don't ask me where or how I got that number, just something that is floating adrift in my head. And that was my simple point. Even in a lab epoxy is not "waterproof", I know it sounds picky with the numbers you stated, but who uses epoxy in lab conditions anyway. And certainly in the use the Origional Poster has in mind it won't be water proof, in fact it may prove detremental by holding aquired moisture (through cracks and osmosis) in. Even if he went to the expence of using the water tank rated stuff you base your numbers on, and certainly not if he uses off the shelf maring epoxy... cheers everyone Cheers to you too, but the guy owes me an apology. paul oman progressive epoxy polymers |
ready to put some boat on my boat
On Jul 12, 10:33 am, wrote:
Cheers to you too, but the guy owes me an apology. Better yet, just let it die, my feelings will heal;) |
ready to put some boat on my boat
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ready to put some boat on my boat
Bruce schreef in
On 11 Jul 2007 21:08:43 GMT, Lodewijk Stegman wrote: For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't move with it. How do you engineer that? Well, I have seen a large number of boats built of wood and epoxy - strip planked, cold molded and duracore composite all come to mind. These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. You don't have to convince me. I have seen those boats too. And you and I know why these boats have no problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content. The moisture content does not change (enough) to crate problems, once the wood is sealed from external moisture. Which seems to prove that epoxy is waterproof enough for this purpose. Practically spoken, epoxy is waterproof. -- Lodewijk |
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