Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in
the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-
sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought,
and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be
greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip


Skip,

It was suggested by another, earlier today, that you take Flying Pig on her
own bottom, under power, to another marina. Surely that is doable? If she's
not leaking, and has a working engine, splash her and get the hell out of
there!

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Feb 14, 8:48 pm, "Skip Gundlach" wrote:
I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip


Get the **** out of there any way you can!

Again, consider Indiantown Marina on the ditch or any other DIY yard
hopefully with a camp ground near by. I think there are still a couple
in the Lauderdale area.

Talk with a towing company and see what those costs would be.

Go on the Passagemaker forum and find a guy who goes by Fast Fred he's
at a another yard on the ditch. He may be able to help.

Don't give up. But do get out. :-)

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Feb 14, 7:57 pm, "capt.bill11" wrote:

Get the **** out of there any way you can!

Again, consider Indiantown Marina on the ditch or any other DIY yard
hopefully with a camp ground near by. I think there are still a couple
in the Lauderdale area.


ANd I would add, get a surveyor to give the hull a right to passage to
cover you libelous ass. That is, if you can get the guy to say it
sould make it to XYZ. Then when you,, uh er, I mean it sinks, you have
proof the boat was safe enough to motor. Maybe even get that total
from the insurance if in deep enough water. Just make sure your in
over 450'. Takes too much money to put a diver to that depth to check
sea cocks.
Dead Men Tell No Tales ,
Bob

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:

I started to write this to a sailnet list member who'd recommended
them,
citing, in particular, and repetitively, during our conversation,
their
honesty, but then I thought it might be better distributed to
appropriate
lists and groups - places which were following our odyssey - as fair
warning
to others. You probably know that we were taken to Keys Boat Works
when
Flying Pig was salvaged. Here's what I was going to send to my
contact:

They may be honest, but they sure aren't straightforward. Literally
everyone (albeit a small sample, but well over one, and including a
contractor who rented space) Lydia, the inveterate yard-walker/chatter-
upper
has spoken with, when told what we are being charged to sit here while
they
took their sweet time (over a week) to look at the boat (70+/day), and
every
day forward, i. e. effectively $500 a week, said that was impossible -
they
were paying more like 300-400/month. The contractor, e.g., in addition
to
the liveaboards she's chatted up, pointed to a boat next to ours,
observing
that it paid $300 a month. Yet, their liveaboard charges (supplement
included in the 70+/day) alone amount to close to 500 a month, with
no
ground rent, for us.

On confrontation today, we learned it was because it was an insurance
job,
and, even if we were to take on the project ourselves, the rate would
not
change. As it will no doubt be totaled, and every penny for the yard
will
come out of our pocket, effectively, they are knowingly raping us, as
they
are fully aware of the circumstances, and will make no adjustment to
assist
us, despite Sharon saying to Lydia, at the time, "You know, we have a
lot of
latitude in that." As you can guess, this is giving me an attitude,
pardon
the pun...

Until we can remove it - at best, some time off - the charges will
remain
the same. In the event we were to use them for any repairs whatsoever,
it
will be at $100 per hour. Mike was candid to say that the daily price
being
charged was to force decisions, as they only want boats on which they
can
make those ground rents and if not, $100/hour whenever they touch it
- if
the boat won't be on their work schedule, effectively, they don't want
it
here, and the sooner the better it leaves, for them.

And lest you think this an anomaly, today we learned in conversation
with
another prior customer of theirs that they charged him the same lay
days
while they hunted for parts for his boat (which he had brought to them
to
work on). It wasn't until he forced the issue (at some length of
argument,
and the possibility that he could do some reputation damage due to
the
nature of the work he does in the area) that they backed out the lay
day
charges for the time they'd been looking for the parts (and charging
him
appropriately - 100/hour - on receipt of them, after that time).

Our only recourse is to leave. If on a truck, there is significant
work
which must be done to prepare it for transport (read: more lay day
charges,
plus their local labor for things which we can't do ourselves), and
an
as-yet unknown cost associated with the transport. If behind another
boat,
some work is needed to keep the water out, still requiring some
additional
days here. See other postings on that subject.

We're stuck between the classical rock and a hard place...

More adventures, to be sure, but the financial parts are getting very
wearying, as there's no way out of this one; every day bleeds more of
the
little we have - and we don't yet know what the disposition of the
insurance
company will be. We could well be homeless (no boat, regardless of
condition, if the insurance company takes it, less paid as settlement
every
day it sits), as well.

Pictures of the adventure are now up on the web in our first gallery -
click
the link below to go to the main gallery and click on the upper left
thumbnail.

Stay tuned...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear
night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are
quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in
the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-
sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought,
and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be
greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin



You should be able to move that boat by the end of next week at the
latest, if you elect to truck it. Hopefully by now somebody has
forwarded you names of a couple of reliable truckers.

I know some of your pain, I was stuck in a $110
../day marina in Cape May a couple of years ago, I tried to deliver my
new purchase (an elderly Islander 44), on its own bottom, from Havre de
Grace Maryland to Newport, RI. and it was a bad choice, the boat was not
ready to go and you need to be tied to land to fix.

The next time, Trucking from Annapolis (this time an Alberg 35) cost
about 20% of the water delivery, ($1.100.00)and no risk of further water
damage.

My heart goes out to you. A friend of mine hit some of that solid water
2.5 hours after taking delivery of a new to him 38 ft Pan Oceanic
Cutter. The ledges in Woods Hole, MA are legendary for harvesting boats
in concert with the currents.

We've never exchanged notes but I've quietly watched your saga for years
now and really feel for you.

Good luck,

Jonathan

--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

For what this is worth, and it will probably come to nothing ...

I am passing this story on to John Stossel of ABC News.

Let's face it: if Skip was Black, and this was Katrina ,, every politician
in America would be there to help.

We need your help with this .. you readers of postings. Send a note to John
at ABC News. His web page is below.
John is a good man, if he sees injustice he gets ****ed. Well, lets' get
John ****ed.

Come on, no sit on your ass and complain types now.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/



============================
"Geoff Schultz" wrote in message
...
I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Feb 15, 6:17 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
I think that I would contact the FL insurance commission. I don't know
what the laws of FL are like, but to me this smacks of insurance fraud.
You can't have 2 separate prices...one for insurance and one for the non-
insured. At least threatening this might get your bill reduced.

-- Geoff

I completely agree, unfortunately the insurance companies find it
easier to
just raise the rates then to fight the bad apples.
Tom

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they have
to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers are
doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Feb 15, 9:08 am, "Don White" wrote:
"Larry" wrote in message

...



"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
oups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they have
to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers are
doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

"Somebody" should call the yard and ask them to relay a message from
his insurance company to Skip Gundlach that coverage beyond 3 more
days is being denied. Even if the yard calls the insurance company
back I bet they will have sufficient doubt that they WANT to get rid
of Flying Pig ASAP.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Don ,,, I may be going over to the other side ,, but... in my opinion, our
country is on the brink of coming apart. Everything is broken, the whole
system. Health care, the government spending, the war in Iraq, our
industys, ....

Great speech by Bill Moyers recently.. read it ,, you can find it on the
net.

Powerful stuff.

=================
"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they
have to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers
are doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

I remember in '75 when the country was coming apart. Plenty of people
said the country couldn't last five years the way things were going. The
ecomomy was supposed to collapse if nuclear war didn't get us first.

Stephen

NE Sailboat wrote:
Don ,,, I may be going over to the other side ,, but... in my opinion, our
country is on the brink of coming apart. Everything is broken, the whole
system. Health care, the government spending, the war in Iraq, our
industys, ....

Great speech by Bill Moyers recently.. read it ,, you can find it on the
net.

Powerful stuff.

=================
"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
. ..

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
groups.com:


effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they
have to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers
are doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Stephen,, we are in a whole lot worse off shape than 1975.

Never in our history has the difference in wealth between the rich and the
poor ( all of the rest of America ) but so great.

We have millions of illegals running around and the federal government won't
even protect the border and enforce the immigration laws.

Then there is the mess in the middle east.

Oh, I forgot... check out what the government is spending and the debt it is
amassing.


Do you think a bank in the USA would get away with giving illegals who have
entered our county by sneaking in a credit card ..

Do you think that would happen in 1975? It is happening now! Bank of
America.

I sorry to say it,, but I really don't give us much of a chance to continue.



=============

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
I remember in '75 when the country was coming apart. Plenty of people said
the country couldn't last five years the way things were going. The ecomomy
was supposed to collapse if nuclear war didn't get us first.

Stephen

NE Sailboat wrote:
Don ,,, I may be going over to the other side ,, but... in my opinion,
our country is on the brink of coming apart. Everything is broken, the
whole system. Health care, the government spending, the war in Iraq, our
industys, ....

Great speech by Bill Moyers recently.. read it ,, you can find it on the
net.

Powerful stuff.

=================
"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
egroups.com:


effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to
just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door
and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening
your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they
can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they
have to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers
are doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Feb 15, 12:36 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote:

I sorry to say it,, but I really don't give us much of a chance to continue.

History has shown... nothing lasts forever. If not in 10 yrs, then in
a 100, ...
Tom

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

NE Sailboat wrote:

Stephen,, we are in a whole lot worse off shape than 1975.

Never in our history has the difference in wealth between the rich and the
poor ( all of the rest of America ) but so great.

We have millions of illegals running around and the federal government won't
even protect the border and enforce the immigration laws.

Then there is the mess in the middle east.

Oh, I forgot... check out what the government is spending and the debt it is
amassing.


Do you think a bank in the USA would get away with giving illegals who have
entered our county by sneaking in a credit card ..

Do you think that would happen in 1975? It is happening now! Bank of
America.

I sorry to say it,, but I really don't give us much of a chance to continue.

Well, there was massive doom and gloom in the seventies. Plenty of
"experts" would go on and on about how the level of inflation definitely
would result in a massive collapse in less than five years, guaranteed.
My family left Hawaii where we lived to get to a place where we could
live off the land and survive during a collapse. And of course anyone
who was around then can remember how inevitable nuclear annhilation was,
considering the massive buildup and how we had enough armament to blow
up the world "300 times over."

As we can all see now, there has been drastic improvement in these areas
since then. Since then I've been much more aware of the ways our society
is improving and much more aware of how all the supposed "decline" that
is occuring is actually more of a temporary blip in history, because
mankind has an overwhelming desire and ability to improve their lot.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...

I remember in '75 when the country was coming apart. Plenty of people said
the country couldn't last five years the way things were going. The ecomomy
was supposed to collapse if nuclear war didn't get us first.

Stephen

NE Sailboat wrote:

Don ,,, I may be going over to the other side ,, but... in my opinion,
our country is on the brink of coming apart. Everything is broken, the
whole system. Health care, the government spending, the war in Iraq, our
industys, ....

Great speech by Bill Moyers recently.. read it ,, you can find it on the
net.

Powerful stuff.

=================
"Don White" wrote in message
...


"Larry" wrote in message
3...


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
legroups.com:



effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to
just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door
and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars, cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening
your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they
can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they
have to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car manufacturers
are doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Stephen ,, I don't worry about threats from the outside of America. We, us,
can take care of them.

We are declining from within. The inequity of rich to poor, of government
to private sector ( take a look at pensions ), of those who can afford the
best schools and those who must accept schools that are totally useless.
Don't you find it crazy that the politicians who are making decisions about
public education never send their own kids to public school? Ted Kennedy
comes to mind here.

In 1975 we faced nuclear power such as Russia and the cold war. Today we
destroying ourselfs. We are crumbling from the inside.

Those that have don't care about the folks at the bottom. Take a look at
Walmart. The auto makers are going out of business in the USA, they are
building cars in China though.

And as the taxes go up and up and the middle class disappears, government
continues to give out huge pensions, and keep on spending.

Stephen ,, we are killing ourselves.



================================
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
NE Sailboat wrote:

Stephen,, we are in a whole lot worse off shape than 1975.

Never in our history has the difference in wealth between the rich and
the poor ( all of the rest of America ) but so great.

We have millions of illegals running around and the federal government
won't even protect the border and enforce the immigration laws.

Then there is the mess in the middle east.

Oh, I forgot... check out what the government is spending and the debt it
is amassing.


Do you think a bank in the USA would get away with giving illegals who
have entered our county by sneaking in a credit card ..

Do you think that would happen in 1975? It is happening now! Bank of
America.

I sorry to say it,, but I really don't give us much of a chance to
continue.

Well, there was massive doom and gloom in the seventies. Plenty of
"experts" would go on and on about how the level of inflation definitely
would result in a massive collapse in less than five years, guaranteed. My
family left Hawaii where we lived to get to a place where we could live
off the land and survive during a collapse. And of course anyone who was
around then can remember how inevitable nuclear annhilation was,
considering the massive buildup and how we had enough armament to blow up
the world "300 times over."

As we can all see now, there has been drastic improvement in these areas
since then. Since then I've been much more aware of the ways our society
is improving and much more aware of how all the supposed "decline" that is
occuring is actually more of a temporary blip in history, because mankind
has an overwhelming desire and ability to improve their lot.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...

I remember in '75 when the country was coming apart. Plenty of people
said the country couldn't last five years the way things were going. The
ecomomy was supposed to collapse if nuclear war didn't get us first.

Stephen

NE Sailboat wrote:

Don ,,, I may be going over to the other side ,, but... in my opinion,
our country is on the brink of coming apart. Everything is broken, the
whole system. Health care, the government spending, the war in Iraq,
our industys, ....

Great speech by Bill Moyers recently.. read it ,, you can find it on
the net.

Powerful stuff.

=================
"Don White" wrote in message
...


"Larry" wrote in message
53...


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
glegroups.com:



effectively $500 a week

Isn't this the same reason, insurance paying, that a hospital bed to
just
lay there and die is $400/day and every doctor in the building comes
by
to "say hi" and charges $250 every time he pokes his head in the door
and
smiles at you. (Every doctor in Orangeburg, SC, pulled this crap on my
father who was dying at Orangeburg Regional Medical Center, a profit
center for the medical profession to be sure.

It's how doctors afford yachts, waterfront mansions, fancy cars,
cruises
to exotic places....

I call it "victimization". You're in a position of helplessness and
"they", be they doctors or lawyers or boatyards or tradesmen you are
forced by circumstances to hire quickly to fix something threatening
your
home....feeding at the insurance and victims' tits, sucking as hard as
they can for as long as they can milk it.

CEOs do the same thing to the stockholders....sucking as hard as they
can
on the company's tit, milking it for all they can get, until they
either
get fired and move on to the next board meeting or drive the company,
like Enron, into bankruptcy.

It's the American way! This boatyard is sucking on it just as hard as
any of the rest of the milksuckers.....like bankers.

Larry
--

It's almost as if everyone expects the gravy train to end soon and they
have to grab as much for themselves as possible.
Where's the long term planning? If the Big 3 American car
manufacturers are doing do badly, why are their CEOs hauling in so much
money?
The whole system is rotten and our children will pay for it.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:Sf6Bh.4960$H77.944@trndny08:

And as the taxes go up and up and the middle class disappears,
government continues to give out huge pensions, and keep on spending.



Here's how bad it is:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
8.724 Trillion dollars

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.57 billion per day since September 29, 2006!"

Noone will listen when I say the root cause of American collapse is the
Federal Reserve Bankers! They have consumed the country and stolen the
gold. It's gone and cannot be recovered without bloody revolution...just
like every other time in history.

Here. Watch the problem screwing up another TRILLION+ since October 1,
2006...just since then!
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html

Interest now consumes more than income from ALL of Federal Income Taxes.
How long can this go on without massive extinction? Can we just keep
printing those checks and wishing for the future with our heads up our
asses?

The 1930 dollar is worth 4 cents in 2007. The bankers did it, stupids!
The Federal Reserve Bank Corporation, owned by the elite of the elite.



Larry
--
Vista has been out a week.
Is Service Pack 1 ready yet?

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

I dunno. I think Congress did most of it.
Check out Robt. Samuelson's column in this week's Newsweek and some
newspapers. Better than 60% of the budget goes to "untouchable"
"entitlements".

"Larry" wrote in message
...
"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:Sf6Bh.4960$H77.944@trndny08:

And as the taxes go up and up and the middle class disappears,
government continues to give out huge pensions, and keep on spending.



Here's how bad it is:
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
8.724 Trillion dollars

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.57 billion per day since September 29, 2006!"

Noone will listen when I say the root cause of American collapse is the
Federal Reserve Bankers! They have consumed the country and stolen the
gold. It's gone and cannot be recovered without bloody revolution...just
like every other time in history.

Here. Watch the problem screwing up another TRILLION+ since October 1,
2006...just since then!
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html

Interest now consumes more than income from ALL of Federal Income Taxes.
How long can this go on without massive extinction? Can we just keep
printing those checks and wishing for the future with our heads up our
asses?

The 1930 dollar is worth 4 cents in 2007. The bankers did it, stupids!
The Federal Reserve Bank Corporation, owned by the elite of the elite.



Larry
--
Vista has been out a week.
Is Service Pack 1 ready yet?

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

In article ,
Larry wrote:

"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:Sf6Bh.4960$H77.944@trndny08:

And as the taxes go up and up and the middle class disappears,
government continues to give out huge pensions, and keep on
spending.



Here's how bad it is: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ 8.724
Trillion dollars

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.57
billion per day since September 29, 2006!"

No one will listen when I say the root cause of American collapse is
the Federal Reserve Bankers! They have consumed the country and
stolen the gold. It's gone and cannot be recovered without bloody
revolution...just like every other time in history.

Guys and gals, I won't debate this subject, but offer that many of us
carry primary mortgages well in excess of our annual income, and that's
not generally considered a bad thing. (I admit that rec.boats.cruising
is atypical.)

The total national debt is a much smaller fraction of the US gross
income (GNP) than most of us carry personally. A slight difference of
dollar value would wipe that debt out, as occurred in the Clinton years.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Jere ,, funny .. I just read in the paper that foreclosers were going up up
up...

In fact, in some areas the real estate market is heading for the toilet.

Doesn't seem to bother the federal government. They just keep giving out
raises, big old pensions, etc.


We are doomed.


ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.


========
"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Larry wrote:

"NE Sailboat" wrote in
news:Sf6Bh.4960$H77.944@trndny08:

And as the taxes go up and up and the middle class disappears,
government continues to give out huge pensions, and keep on
spending.



Here's how bad it is: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ 8.724
Trillion dollars

"The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.57
billion per day since September 29, 2006!"

No one will listen when I say the root cause of American collapse is
the Federal Reserve Bankers! They have consumed the country and
stolen the gold. It's gone and cannot be recovered without bloody
revolution...just like every other time in history.

Guys and gals, I won't debate this subject, but offer that many of us
carry primary mortgages well in excess of our annual income, and that's
not generally considered a bad thing. (I admit that rec.boats.cruising
is atypical.)

The total national debt is a much smaller fraction of the US gross
income (GNP) than most of us carry personally. A slight difference of
dollar value would wipe that debt out, as occurred in the Clinton years.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

NE Sailboat wrote:
Jere ,, funny .. I just read in the paper that foreclosers were going up up
up...

In fact, in some areas the real estate market is heading for the toilet.

Doesn't seem to bother the federal government. They just keep giving out
raises, big old pensions, etc.


We are doomed.


ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.


And therein lies the problem! If you would run out and buy a new
house, new car, new boat, hdtv, etc, you would be putting a whole bunch
of people to work! Solves all the problems, ;) Well, except YOUR new ones!
Gordon

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:00:59 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.

No wonder you are always complaining about money or the lack there of.

You're not enjoying the power of leverage.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

That is really funny .. the power of leverage! hahaha ,, this is killing
me.

If I guy goes to a bank and borrows $100,000 the bank owns him.

But if a guy goes to the bank and borrows $1,000,000,000 then he owns the
bank.

That is the power of leverage.



=======================

Try living debt free. It is an incredible feeling. I know, I had a
mortgage, car loan, personal loan, the you name it loan..

Then I started to just pay them off. One day; no more loans.

I took the money that was going to the loan and paid myself in investment
savings. Every month, just like the mortgage.

The next thing you know ... wow. Look at all that savings.

It really isn't hard. Just takes some discipline.


====================================
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:00:59 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.

No wonder you are always complaining about money or the lack there of.

You're not enjoying the power of leverage.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

NE Sailboat wrote:
That is really funny .. the power of leverage! hahaha ,, this is killing
me.

If I guy goes to a bank and borrows $100,000 the bank owns him.

But if a guy goes to the bank and borrows $1,000,000,000 then he owns the
bank.

That is the power of leverage.



=======================

Try living debt free. It is an incredible feeling. I know, I had a
mortgage, car loan, personal loan, the you name it loan..

Then I started to just pay them off. One day; no more loans.

I took the money that was going to the loan and paid myself in investment
savings. Every month, just like the mortgage.

The next thing you know ... wow. Look at all that savings.

It really isn't hard. Just takes some discipline.


====================================
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:00:59 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:


ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.

No wonder you are always complaining about money or the lack there of.

You're not enjoying the power of leverage.




It takes more than a million for you to own the bank.

Don't ask me how i know....

--
“TAANSTAFL”

__________________________________________________ __________________________
Something to think about, from a wise man now long dead….:

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes
here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he
shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an
outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or
birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming
in every facet an American, and nothing but an American.
“There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an
American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all.
“We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but
one language here, and that is the English language and we have room for
but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
--Theodore Roosevelt...1907

__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Consumer debt becomes slavery, yes. But that is not "leverage." "Leverage"
is borrowing money and earning more from that money than the interest you'll
have to pay back. That is the source of true monetary wealth. And yes, it
most certainly does work. You just have to be smart about it.


"NE Sailboat" wrote in message
news:Ej9Bh.5873$5M1.2110@trndny01...
That is really funny .. the power of leverage! hahaha ,, this is killing
me.

If I guy goes to a bank and borrows $100,000 the bank owns him.

But if a guy goes to the bank and borrows $1,000,000,000 then he owns
the bank.

That is the power of leverage.



=======================

Try living debt free. It is an incredible feeling. I know, I had a
mortgage, car loan, personal loan, the you name it loan..

Then I started to just pay them off. One day; no more loans.

I took the money that was going to the loan and paid myself in investment
savings. Every month, just like the mortgage.

The next thing you know ... wow. Look at all that savings.

It really isn't hard. Just takes some discipline.


====================================
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:00:59 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no
boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.

No wonder you are always complaining about money or the lack there of.

You're not enjoying the power of leverage.

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Followup...

An apology is in order. I've already apologized to the owners, Mike
and Sharon, but those who saw my original comments under this title
should have additional information:

A week ago, we were still sleep deprived, and in full panic mode.
From all appearances, we would not only lose our home, we'd have huge
bills to settle outside of our insurance coverage.

Today, we're optimistic, somewhat more rested, and looking forward to
the future.

Nothing has changed, really, other than the insurance specification
which has allowed us to keep our home - but pay for everything out of
pocket. Yet, as the huge majority of costs, as expected, would have
been labor, if we do all but the particularly skilled work (which we'd
have to engage professionals to do) ourselves, the costs can be
manageable.

The salvage company will still have to be paid, but, after all, they
did successfully retrieve our home, with minimal damage in the
process.

The yard will have to be paid, and at rates which are different than
those to which we're accustomed - and yet, the costs of literally
everything in the keys are radically higher than most places we've
been. So, those are just the costs of doing business in the middle
keys. As the owners were candid to say, part of the pricing model is
to encourage decisions. Quite possibly, had it not been for our
conversation a few days after we arrived, we'd still be trying to
figure out what to do.

Instead, we quickly came to a decision to make 'emergency repairs' -
work which would allow us to get back in the water as quickly as
possible - and limp back to St. Petersburg where we could do more
thorough repairs.

So, we talked to the contractor on the premises who specializes in
Fiberglass work, Bob Hardy. We told him what we had in mind, and
indicated that we could do the work ourselves, if he'd be willing to
consult. He readily agreed, and pointed out what we'd have to do in
the way of grinding, and said he'd be back in a day or two.

We did, and he did. Except he came loaded for bear. If you ever need
fiberglass work, I can heartily recommend this man. Singlehandedly
(well, except for the time he was doing a rudder frame, when he had a
drill in one hand and a jigsaw in the other), in less than a week,
he's got Flying Pig not just emergency repaired, but ready for bottom
paint. If I can get a good connection, I'll have the last pictures up
later tonight. Many are already there.

The best we could do was stay out of his way. So, aside from handing
him stuff occasionally, we did just that. What he's done I doubt we
could do (to the same level of quality, let alone have the right
materials available), but to even try would have taken us months. In
the end, we won't have to do anything further at all on a structural
level to the outside of the boat - it's ready to put bottom paint on,
make cosmetic paint adjustments to the topsides, and that's it!

So, for the ground price here of a few months of storage up north, but
at a massive reduction in costs had we tried to hire the work in St.
Petersburg, using our prior talented folks, we're going to be leaving
very soon. In the end, a bargain, indeed, both financially and
psychically, as to have our 8-year dream and three-year refit come to
an apparent violent end really did a number on our minds.

A week ago, I tried to find the owners to apologize for my calumny,
and in particular the fallout from those of you who emailed Keys Boat
Works, feeling we needed protection, but they'd already left on a trip
to see grandkids. I managed to find them as soon as they returned,
and, ever gracious, they accepted my apology and we moved on. I
suspect they see a fair share of folks in similar situations - about
to lose their only home, and fully traumatized by the experience,
sleep deprived, and otherwise, perhaps, not presenting their normal
selves. In any case, I was appropriately appalled at my prior
behavior, and they were inappropriately much more than gracious - I'm
not sure that in the same situation, I would have been as kind...

So, the adventure continues. We'll lick our wounds, be undyingly
grateful for the outpouring of assistance and support received from
the cruising community, and, we hope, emerge better seamen/women for
it all.

Thanks again, to all.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

Captain ,, even if the marina owners have turned out to be less of the
crooks you originally thought they were/are..

I would never go anywhere near the place.

In fact, your whole calamity has been a good learning lesson for me. I am
planning on a cruise to Florida and the Islands maybe next year. I will on
the east side of Florida. The keys? I'm kinda doubting it at this point.


================================================== ============
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
oups.com...
Followup...

An apology is in order. I've already apologized to the owners, Mike
and Sharon, but those who saw my original comments under this title
should have additional information:

A week ago, we were still sleep deprived, and in full panic mode.
From all appearances, we would not only lose our home, we'd have huge
bills to settle outside of our insurance coverage.

Today, we're optimistic, somewhat more rested, and looking forward to
the future.

Nothing has changed, really, other than the insurance specification
which has allowed us to keep our home - but pay for everything out of
pocket. Yet, as the huge majority of costs, as expected, would have
been labor, if we do all but the particularly skilled work (which we'd
have to engage professionals to do) ourselves, the costs can be
manageable.

The salvage company will still have to be paid, but, after all, they
did successfully retrieve our home, with minimal damage in the
process.

The yard will have to be paid, and at rates which are different than
those to which we're accustomed - and yet, the costs of literally
everything in the keys are radically higher than most places we've
been. So, those are just the costs of doing business in the middle
keys. As the owners were candid to say, part of the pricing model is
to encourage decisions. Quite possibly, had it not been for our
conversation a few days after we arrived, we'd still be trying to
figure out what to do.

Instead, we quickly came to a decision to make 'emergency repairs' -
work which would allow us to get back in the water as quickly as
possible - and limp back to St. Petersburg where we could do more
thorough repairs.

So, we talked to the contractor on the premises who specializes in
Fiberglass work, Bob Hardy. We told him what we had in mind, and
indicated that we could do the work ourselves, if he'd be willing to
consult. He readily agreed, and pointed out what we'd have to do in
the way of grinding, and said he'd be back in a day or two.

We did, and he did. Except he came loaded for bear. If you ever need
fiberglass work, I can heartily recommend this man. Singlehandedly
(well, except for the time he was doing a rudder frame, when he had a
drill in one hand and a jigsaw in the other), in less than a week,
he's got Flying Pig not just emergency repaired, but ready for bottom
paint. If I can get a good connection, I'll have the last pictures up
later tonight. Many are already there.

The best we could do was stay out of his way. So, aside from handing
him stuff occasionally, we did just that. What he's done I doubt we
could do (to the same level of quality, let alone have the right
materials available), but to even try would have taken us months. In
the end, we won't have to do anything further at all on a structural
level to the outside of the boat - it's ready to put bottom paint on,
make cosmetic paint adjustments to the topsides, and that's it!

So, for the ground price here of a few months of storage up north, but
at a massive reduction in costs had we tried to hire the work in St.
Petersburg, using our prior talented folks, we're going to be leaving
very soon. In the end, a bargain, indeed, both financially and
psychically, as to have our 8-year dream and three-year refit come to
an apparent violent end really did a number on our minds.

A week ago, I tried to find the owners to apologize for my calumny,
and in particular the fallout from those of you who emailed Keys Boat
Works, feeling we needed protection, but they'd already left on a trip
to see grandkids. I managed to find them as soon as they returned,
and, ever gracious, they accepted my apology and we moved on. I
suspect they see a fair share of folks in similar situations - about
to lose their only home, and fully traumatized by the experience,
sleep deprived, and otherwise, perhaps, not presenting their normal
selves. In any case, I was appropriately appalled at my prior
behavior, and they were inappropriately much more than gracious - I'm
not sure that in the same situation, I would have been as kind...

So, the adventure continues. We'll lick our wounds, be undyingly
grateful for the outpouring of assistance and support received from
the cruising community, and, we hope, emerge better seamen/women for
it all.

Thanks again, to all.

L8R

Skip and Lydia

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Keys Boat Works, or, Pirates of the Caribbean (well, close, anyway)
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:00:59 GMT, "NE Sailboat"
wrote:

ps.. full discloser.. I don't owe a penny to anyone. No mortgage, no boat
loan, no car loan ,,, nothing.

No wonder you are always complaining about money or the lack there of.

You're not enjoying the power of leverage.

In article Ej9Bh.5873$5M1.2110@trndny01,
"NE Sailboat" wrote:

Try living debt free. It is an incredible feeling. I know, I had a
mortgage, car loan, personal loan, the you name it loan..

Then I started to just pay them off. One day; no more loans.

I took the money that was going to the loan and paid myself in investment
savings. Every month, just like the mortgage.

The next thing you know ... wow. Look at all that savings.

It really isn't hard. Just takes some discipline.

My parents lived during the depression as well. Got married in '35.

"Leverage" allows you to use something you can't afford -- as long as
your economic circumstances don't decline. Most I know who are depending
on that are working hard to stay ahead of the payments.

We, on the other hand, are comfortable on a single income from a company
that doesn't pay me what I'm worth, but gives me over 7 weeks' vacation
a year and helps me use it. Meanwhile, about 30% of that single income
is going into retirement investments. When a deer totaled the car, we
bought with cash. We have 6-12 months' cruising kitty in liquid funds,
and plan to use it the next time I'm "between jobs".

That, to me, is true wealth.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/