This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip,

Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will work
with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will be
epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces
pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or
wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with. Trying
to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint
will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester
resin.

If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa,
then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either case,
rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original
joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws through
the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at least
half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at
all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a
"wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together.


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

If it were my boat and the joint were structurally important, i'd gain
access to the loose tabbing, cut away the separated leaf of tabbing, grind
both sides of the joint and lay up new tabbng with epoxy.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et...
Skip,

Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will
work
with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will
be
epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces
pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or
wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with.
Trying
to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint
will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester
resin.

If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa,
then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either
case,
rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original
joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws
through
the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at
least
half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at
all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a
"wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together.


"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...

George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in
Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges
are resolved...

Hi, George, and onlookers,

It keeps getting better...

The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct
possibility in the area.

I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for
Morgan during the entire time of building our boats.

The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full
depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still
too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long-
term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!*
- funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under
these circumstances.

Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to
tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we
might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the
Keys" once this is all settled.

Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the
swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with
the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of
your possessions.

Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of
some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed,
including by such as you all.

Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist,
having never even corresponded, let alone met...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

In article . com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are
really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set
up. But you want a really good bond....

Agreement with KLC's assessment on the "cleanness" of the break. Rough
is better, polyester probably your best bet, fortified with something
strong that you can shoot in with, say, a caulk gun.

It does keep sounding better and better.

Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Feb 13, 3:13 am, Jere Lull wrote:


Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I promise!)
suggests it's already tight, as there's not a gap top/bottom of the
line where it used to be attached.

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog


The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages:http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics)http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Skip,

My outline may have left out steps that I have clearly in mind, but didn't
translate into dots on the screen. The way I see it, yes -- you could grind
off all the old tabbing and install it new, but then you would have TWO
secondary/mechanical bonds, rather than the one secondary (tabbing to
bulkhead) and one primary (tabbing to hull, laid-up when the resin was still
fresh and molecularly active.

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens, all laminated together into one
thick tabbing. Unfortunately, if you don't have the access, you don't have
the access. So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:00:08 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens

In addition to using epoxy resin (instead of polyester), I recommend
thickening the resin with chopped glass fibers to improve its
strength.

This is a difficult repair without having full access on at least one
side of the bulkhead.

In article , "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?

How could you ever know how strong it was?

You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some
chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is.
You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and
each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6'
seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not
know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge
after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen.
This is not what the dream was about.

No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just
because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her
that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a
Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle
anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will
always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of
conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they
never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this
nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the
dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port.

No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes.
Do it swiftly and without regrets.

Good luck,
Paul

--

Remove Before Flight

Jere Lull wrote:

I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are
really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set
up. But you want a really good bond....



Epoxies are not great in peel.

The screws would help prevent that - and act as shear pins.

Screw it....


Ricahrd

Skip Gundlach wrote:
The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the
bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.),
just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will
rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your
uncle!"

That sounds reasonable if as you say the bond area has not been
contaminated. If the gap is large, consider "Plexus" a thick gap
filling adhesive widely used in new boat construction.

If the gap is thin, temporarily wedging the tabbing open and pouring
in liberal amounts of epoxy, and temporarily screwing the tabbing back
to the bulkheads will do it.

On our 30' last boat, the survey noted a few instances of de-bonded
tabbing. In my inexperience, I took an angle grinder and got in
lockers, closets, and under bunks and ground out almost all the
tabbing and re-tabbed with new material. Lots of work but it didnt'
take that long- about 1 month working most evenings after work.

If you do have to re-tab some areas, use epoxy; the fumes alone from
polyester in close quarters will be unpleasant to say the least.

The outside pics don't seem that bad, and retabbing bulkheads etc.
don't sound that bad, except for the areas of limited access like the
refrigerator. In those areas where you can get at one side, lots of
tabbing on the one side is nearly as good as both sides and is
probably quite acceptable.

If you think the boat is still worthwhile don't let the insurance
company scrap her on you. Negotiate, bargain, etc!

Good luck to you,

Evan Gatehouse