Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

I am seriously interested in learning to weld aluminum. In the interest of
future projects I fugured I would buy some scrap aluminum froma local metal
worker to practice on. So...which alloys should I get. These are for
freshwater projects, but a small bay boat or small skiff for bay fishing may
be in the works for the future so sal****er applications are not totally out
of the question.


--
Bob La Londe
Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River
Fishing Forums & Contests
http://www.YumaBassMan.com



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

Bob,
First - Do you know how to weld (any type)right now? If you do not, go
find a community college or local technical school and get some
instruction. They may ever have an advanced class that will get you
closer.

Second - You should reseach which alloys you will work. There are a
number of choices and some limit the effective welding process that can
be used. I have not worked in this field in years, so I do not choose
to suggest without knowing the actual application and doing some study
on my own.

Third - There are are multiple processes for welding aluminum available.
All are different and some are very different. Some alloys are best
welded with TIG (expensive) others can be handled with SMA (looks like
welding rod and the easiest is MIG (has a gun that lays weld).

Most of your practice should be laying beads on flat stock so don't buy
new metal. After you learn to weld and pick up some good used gear, go
find a scrap metal dealer that get flat stock from some where and make a
deal to buy some from him with the understanding that you can sell it
back to him as larger pieces for not much less than you bought it for.

Build yourseld some forms and holders to let you weld uphill down hand
and overhead and try to assemble soem structures that are really
difficult and hard to manage and you may be close to boat building.

Keep up posted.
Best of luck,

Matt Colie
(welded in big steel ships for a while and little stuff for ever)



Bob La Londe wrote:
I am seriously interested in learning to weld aluminum. In the interest of
future projects I fugured I would buy some scrap aluminum froma local metal
worker to practice on. So...which alloys should I get. These are for
freshwater projects, but a small bay boat or small skiff for bay fishing may
be in the works for the future so sal****er applications are not totally out
of the question.

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Bob,
First - Do you know how to weld (any type)right now? If you do not, go
find a community college or local technical school and get some
instruction. They may ever have an advanced class that will get you
closer.

I do a fair job with my little MIG welder on any kind of steel. I've got a
gas bottle and flow regulator for stainless. That takes a little more work
to get jsut right. I do heavy steel stock with my cracker box AC welder,
but the best welder I ever used for heavy stock was a Hobart DC stick
welder. Wow talk about smooth.

Second - You should reseach which alloys you will work. There are a
number of choices and some limit the effective welding process that can be
used. I have not worked in this field in years, so I do not choose to
suggest without knowing the actual application and doing some study on my
own.

I have been doing a little research on my own, but I was hoping to get a
nice definitive answer from some one who builds boats that would say, "This
alloy works very well in a wet environemtn."

Third - There are are multiple processes for welding aluminum available.
All are different and some are very different. Some alloys are best
welded with TIG (expensive) others can be handled with SMA (looks like
welding rod and the easiest is MIG (has a gun that lays weld).

Yep, I read about TIG & MIG already. Like I said I've got a MIG welder and
a flow regulator already. Figured I would get a U-groove push wheel for my
wire, and pick up a straight (not mixed) bottle for doing aluminum, and then
I'ld wander over to Mike's Metal works and buy some aluminum off his scrap
rack to practce with.

Most of your practice should be laying beads on flat stock so don't buy
new metal. After you learn to weld and pick up some good used gear, go
find a scrap metal dealer that get flat stock from some where and make a
deal to buy some from him with the understanding that you can sell it back
to him as larger pieces for not much less than you bought it for.

I figured to get a bunch of scrap to practice on froma local metal shop.

Build yourseld some forms and holders to let you weld uphill down hand and
overhead and try to assemble soem structures that are really difficult and
hard to manage and you may be close to boat building.

Part of practice.

Keep up posted.
Best of luck,

Matt Colie
(welded in big steel ships for a while and little stuff for ever)


--
Bob La Londe
Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River
Fishing Forums & Contests
http://www.YumaBassMan.com



Bob La Londe wrote:
I am seriously interested in learning to weld aluminum. In the interest
of future projects I fugured I would buy some scrap aluminum froma local
metal worker to practice on. So...which alloys should I get. These are
for freshwater projects, but a small bay boat or small skiff for bay
fishing may be in the works for the future so sal****er applications are
not totally out of the question.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

I do a fair job with my little MIG welder on any kind of steel. I've got a
gas bottle and flow regulator for stainless. That takes a little more work
to get jsut right. I do heavy steel stock with my cracker box AC welder,
but the best welder I ever used for heavy stock was a Hobart DC stick
welder. Wow talk about smooth.

Hi there,
Ive been a full time welder for about 5 years now, and a tinkerer most
of my life before that. I spent a year doing contract work stick
welding trawlers but in the last year and a half most of my work has
been aluminum; big tip trailers, and aluminum plate boats.

Here's my 2 cents worth... I dont think it really makes too much of a
difference what alloy you go with, particularly for fresh water. Just
go with something that isnt too hard. We use 5083 marine alloy, but a
lot of the 5000 series alloys are suitable. You'd do well to decide
early on if you want to go for a 'plate' boat or a 'pressed' boat.
Plate boats use relatively thick sections (1/4" or more) of aluminum
and hold their shape well. The boats my company makes are of this
variety, take a look at the web page if you like (note, this is not a
plug)

www.barcrusher.com.au

Typical dinghys and runabouts use much thinner sections, sometimes 1/8"
or smaller. The smaller sections wont keep shape without being formed
a bit, and the most common way of doing it is by pressing the sheets to
give them a sort of a clinker look. You can get the same sort of
effect by buying a rolling wheel, marking the lines on the sheet then
rolling them on the wheel.

The heavier boats are much more solid and easier to weld, but you're
probably looking at around $6,000 to build a 20" with a cuddy cabin -
not including fitting it out or an engine. Aluminum prices are going
up and up. If you're going with plate, you're pretty ok, you should
get away with yusing your small mig. You'll need a plastic liner for
your gun, and different tips. If you're using flux core, you'll need
to swap to a non-grooved roller set.

If you're going to go with pressed, you'll probably need a lot of
skill, or a better welder - preferrably both. The welders we use at
work are about $20,000 Fronius units with all the options (push pull
gun, water cooled leads) that do a synergic pulse mig, and have
adjustable current *on the gun* in the form of a dial or buttons in one
amp steps. This gives extremely fine control over heat and its
adjustable while you're welding, so you can turn it up as you get to a
corner, or down if you start to burn through. They also have 4 step
options (hot start, run, crater fill) to get a tig-like experience in a
fraction of the time. The synergic pulse is truly excellent for
overhead and vertical up welding and gives a minimum of spatter.

In truth, like me, you will probably never be able to justify buying a
unit like this, but thats what it takes to compete at that sort of a
level when it comes to aluminum. All the players have them. If you're
going to go ahead with your (im guessing single phase, off brand)
welder, start by getting some reasonable size sheets 1/4" or so. If
there's a boat maker in your area hit them up for scrap. You'll
probably get a box full for a six pack.

Aluminum is great in some ways - unlike steel you'll never get a pretty
looking weld that doesnt do anything. For this reason alone, i think
the standard of aluminum welding is generally higher than steel. It
has to be spotlessly clean, or you're wasting your time. use a
stainless wire wheel, or a flap disk. Temperature and root gap are
critical. Filling gaps is not easy. Unlike steel, it doesnt give any
signs the weld pool is too hot, so you'll be quite surprised to see the
puddle drop right through the plate every time it happens. Dont sweat
it too much; it still happens to me ;-)

you may find that setting the welder is hard, partly because it doesnt
make that good sound you get with steel, and partly because you may
only have 5 voltage settings on your unit. Hotter is better, so start
by just 'tack' welding until you get the hang of it. You'll see that
just before it drops out, the pool goes from greyish to a bit shiny,
then it sinks a little, then very quickly disappears. Once you can
control the puddle to the point you can 'sink' it level with the plate
and not drop it out, you're doing well. butt welds are tricky, so
progress to a fillet. a 'step' in your gun movement of around 1/4"
will give a pretty looking weld.

The most critical things are probably cleanliness of material, correct
heat, consistent gun angle and consistent stick out, in that order. If
you get a lot of grey/black discoloration around your bead it means
you're not getting enough gas coverage - move your gun closer.

If i were in your position, Id see if there is a local boat builder who
would take me on part time on weekends if i worked for free. In return
you'll learn how to do a professional looking weld, probably pressure
testing, have access to heaps of scrap, and they'll usually let you use
the equipment after hours.

good luck ;-)

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

"imagineero" wrote in message
ps.com...
I do a fair job with my little MIG welder on any kind of steel. I've got
a
gas bottle and flow regulator for stainless. That takes a little more
work
to get jsut right. I do heavy steel stock with my cracker box AC welder,
but the best welder I ever used for heavy stock was a Hobart DC stick
welder. Wow talk about smooth.

Hi there,
Ive been a full time welder for about 5 years now, and a tinkerer most
of my life before that. I spent a year doing contract work stick
welding trawlers but in the last year and a half most of my work has
been aluminum; big tip trailers, and aluminum plate boats.

Here's my 2 cents worth... I dont think it really makes too much of a
difference what alloy you go with, particularly for fresh water. Just
go with something that isnt too hard. We use 5083 marine alloy, but a
lot of the 5000 series alloys are suitable. You'd do well to decide
early on if you want to go for a 'plate' boat or a 'pressed' boat.

There was a lot of great stuff in your post. Thanks. I was thinking more
along the lines of pressed, although actual structural bending or forming
was not part of my plan for the main hull design. Wrapping and flexing
would be more accurate. Plate would be way to heavy for some of the smaller
designs I have in mind. I was thinking to basically light bend most of the
sheets using .125 for most things and creating structural ribs out of top
hat bent sheet. I figured to use some 1/4" plate for a slightly different
design than most modern production boats for increased ridgidity for
stringers and knee bracing as well as rear corner gunnel to transom bracing
so that the boat will actually standup to the horsepower that the CG formula
says is appropriate for the design. Most production boats flex to much and
begin to get stress fractures when run with their max rated HP even after
only a couple years.

Your comments on welding the thinner sheet have made me step back and
reconsider. I had hoped to avoid stitch and glue even though it is much
easier, because of the extreme heat and dry conditions where I live. I have
read all about encapsulation etc, and I have also seen real boats. Wood
just does not hold up in the desert no matter what you do to it. Now your
comments about the difficulties of welding sheet aluminum make me reconsider
that approach as well. I suppose the thing to do is get some sheet and a
gas bottle and see what I can do.

You are right in that I have a cheap MIG (with only 2 heat settings).
Usually I use flux core except for stainless because its just faster to do a
small repair weld. My business can justify the expense of a better MIG
welder, although an autodarkeneing shield is probably going to come first.
I know the duty cycle of the one I have is abysmal. This one mostly gets
used for minor fabrication for my business. I probably can't justify top of
the line. Anything over a couple thousand would be pretty hard to justify.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions regarding a local boat builder. Its a
great idea, except as far as I know there aren't any. The nearest would be
about 180 miles in either direction. I probably need a better MIG anyway,
so I guess I'll go hunt up another gas bottle and pick up some scraps from
Mike and see what I can do.


--
Bob La Londe
Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River
Fishing Forums & Contests
http://www.YumaBassMan.com




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

I can't offer much in the way of advice on welding - I am now building a 20'
W Atkin design in aluminum; cutting and fitting the pieces myself, and
hiring a local pro to do the welding. Pictures and discussion on the Yahoo
AtkinBoats site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/ (registration
required).

1/8" can be welded, but it isn't easy. But for smaller boats, it is still
pretty heavy - about the same as 3/4" plywood. Use 5000 series (5083 or
5086 for salt water) and 6061 for angles, pipe, and extrusions (6063 if you
can find it).

Build yourself a little skiff or dinghy for practice. It will come in
handy, and last forever with zero maintenance. Around here standard sheets
seem to be 6'x20', and you could build a nice narrow little skiff from one
sheet. There are all kinds of nice plywood designs out there that can be
adapted to metal.

And pick up Pollard's book, and Gerr's "Boat Strength".

Sal's Dad


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
.. .

"imagineero" wrote in message
ps.com...
I do a fair job with my little MIG welder on any kind of steel. I've
got a
gas bottle and flow regulator for stainless. That takes a little more
work
to get jsut right. I do heavy steel stock with my cracker box AC
welder,
but the best welder I ever used for heavy stock was a Hobart DC stick
welder. Wow talk about smooth.

Hi there,
Ive been a full time welder for about 5 years now, and a tinkerer most
of my life before that. I spent a year doing contract work stick
welding trawlers but in the last year and a half most of my work has
been aluminum; big tip trailers, and aluminum plate boats.

Here's my 2 cents worth... I dont think it really makes too much of a
difference what alloy you go with, particularly for fresh water. Just
go with something that isnt too hard. We use 5083 marine alloy, but a
lot of the 5000 series alloys are suitable. You'd do well to decide
early on if you want to go for a 'plate' boat or a 'pressed' boat.

There was a lot of great stuff in your post. Thanks. I was thinking more
along the lines of pressed, although actual structural bending or forming
was not part of my plan for the main hull design. Wrapping and flexing
would be more accurate. Plate would be way to heavy for some of the
smaller designs I have in mind. I was thinking to basically light bend
most of the sheets using .125 for most things and creating structural ribs
out of top hat bent sheet. I figured to use some 1/4" plate for a
slightly different design than most modern production boats for increased
ridgidity for stringers and knee bracing as well as rear corner gunnel to
transom bracing so that the boat will actually standup to the horsepower
that the CG formula says is appropriate for the design. Most production
boats flex to much and begin to get stress fractures when run with their
max rated HP even after only a couple years.

Your comments on welding the thinner sheet have made me step back and
reconsider. I had hoped to avoid stitch and glue even though it is much
easier, because of the extreme heat and dry conditions where I live. I
have read all about encapsulation etc, and I have also seen real boats.
Wood just does not hold up in the desert no matter what you do to it. Now
your comments about the difficulties of welding sheet aluminum make me
reconsider that approach as well. I suppose the thing to do is get some
sheet and a gas bottle and see what I can do.

You are right in that I have a cheap MIG (with only 2 heat settings).
Usually I use flux core except for stainless because its just faster to do
a small repair weld. My business can justify the expense of a better MIG
welder, although an autodarkeneing shield is probably going to come first.
I know the duty cycle of the one I have is abysmal. This one mostly gets
used for minor fabrication for my business. I probably can't justify top
of the line. Anything over a couple thousand would be pretty hard to
justify.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestions regarding a local boat builder. Its a
great idea, except as far as I know there aren't any. The nearest would
be about 180 miles in either direction. I probably need a better MIG
anyway, so I guess I'll go hunt up another gas bottle and pick up some
scraps from Mike and see what I can do.


--
Bob La Londe
Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River
Fishing Forums & Contests
http://www.YumaBassMan.com




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

Sal's Dad wrote:
I can't offer much in the way of advice on welding - I am now building a 20'
W Atkin design in aluminum; cutting and fitting the pieces myself, and
hiring a local pro to do the welding. Pictures and discussion on the Yahoo
AtkinBoats site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/ (registration
required).

1/8" can be welded, but it isn't easy.

But it's not that hard, if you take a bit of care. 1/8"
aluminum sheet is not really harder than 1/8 steel to weld. Angles and
bar stock are just as easy to weld as steel. It's a different metal, and
you must get used to the characteristics of it, but it's really no
harder, just different.


But for smaller boats, it is still
pretty heavy - about the same as 3/4" plywood. Use 5000 series (5083 or
5086 for salt water) and 6061 for angles, pipe, and extrusions (6063 if you
can find it).

Build yourself a little skiff or dinghy for practice. It will come in
handy, and last forever with zero maintenance. Around here standard sheets
seem to be 6'x20', and you could build a nice narrow little skiff from one
sheet. There are all kinds of nice plywood designs out there that can be
adapted to metal.

And pick up Pollard's book, and Gerr's "Boat Strength".

Sal's Dad


"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
.. .

"imagineero" wrote in message
oups.com...




--
“TAANSTAFL”
__________________________________________________ __________________________

"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Best Aluminum for Boat Building...
 

You are right in that I have a cheap MIG (with only 2 heat settings).
Usually I use flux core except for stainless because its just faster to do a
small repair weld. My business can justify the expense of a better MIG
welder, although an autodarkeneing shield is probably going to come first.
I know the duty cycle of the one I have is abysmal. This one mostly gets
used for minor fabrication for my business. I probably can't justify top of
the line. Anything over a couple thousand would be pretty hard to justify.

The good news is that pricing on power tools is falling further every
day. Most of the stuff from china is not yet up to spec, but will be
in a few years. CEA makes some pretty good welders that offer
excellent value for money in my opinion. We have a whole range of
welders at work, right up to 800A Lincolns, but we just got in a couple
of CEA's new three phase units, i think they're rated to about 400 or
maybe a bit more off the top of my head. They only cost AU$1200
including sales tax which is about a third of the price of a comparable
lincoln over here. I know they have some fairly good single phase
units available in aus for AU$800, so i imagine US$500 would buy you a
lot of welder right now. Three phase is great if you have it, if not,
you can still do fine with single phase. Look for as much adjustment
in the voltage as possible, at least a coarse and fine knob. Dont get
too concerned about things like burn back and ramp up etc. Most
welders have adjustments for these on the PCB anyway. Try to get one
with a universal gun fitting rather than a built in gun. You can
change them to the universal one later if you have to but its ugly to
do so. If you're stuck with the built in gun you'll probably find that
its not up to the task and doesnt have the range of consumables you'd
like.

If you can afford to spend a bit more, you can get some wonderful
do-it-all inverter boxes nowadays for under $2000. These are an all in
one pulse mig/stick/arc/gouging unit with more adjustments than you can
poke a stick at. Most are fully digital. Have a play with all the
functions that are important to you (especially TIG if you are going to
use it) before shelling out your hard earned - each unit has its own
quirks that you'll either love or hate.

In terms of helmets, the good stuff is still pricey. I've used most of
the speedglass units including the top of the range big screen models
with all the adjustments, sidewindows and the ventillation system.
Work provides them to us for work where we get exposed to fumes. I
have a lincoln dominator which i love, it was about half the price of
the top of the line speedglass (cost me about AU$450) but i find it
much more comfortable to use. it has most of the same features (9-13
shade adjustability, sensitivity, delay) lincoln claims that their
helmet has a faster reaction time which is more suitable for tig, there
may or may not be truth in this. I do mostly mig and a little tig with
mine, but i find that when i wear the speedglass i tend to suffer more
from eye strain. most welders prefer the headgear on the speedglass,
its lighter and a bit more comfortable. One thing i find nice about
the lincoln is that in its 'off' state its slightly darker (i think one
shade) than the speedglass. While this may sound silly, it makes it
the right shade for oxy welding/cutting. I really hate oxy glasses, so
this is a nice feature for me.

Its definitely worth having a go with welding the aluminum with your
current welder. You'll learn a lot, and there are some great
newsgroups that are welding/metalworking focussed. The guys on these
lists have consecutive lifetimes of experience in the industry and you
really learn a lot by talking to them.

Good luck with it all~
Shaun