Plan copyright infringment
 

Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on the
plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

To my ethical judgement, such an appropriation of another's intellectual
property would be wrong.
"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the
plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

Bill wrote:
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on the
plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Only if you publish the revised plan as your own. You can do anything
you want to for personal use only...copyright does not carry an
obligation to "follow the directions exactly." If it did, just about
every cook in the world would be guilty of copyright infringement...'cuz
I don't know of anyone who's capable of doing more in the kitchen than
making toast who hasn't "improved" or substituted ingredients in recipes
in copyrighted cookbooks...not always successfully, though. :)

Which raises a point: are you sure the structure called for in the plan
will support a larger hull?

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Plan copyright infringment
 

OT message for Peggy Hall.

Peggy, could you please contact me direct...

Brian Cleverly (to reply direct, add an ell after the name cee)

Peggie Hall wrote:
Bill wrote:

Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?


Only if you publish the revised plan as your own. You can do anything
you want to for personal use only...copyright does not carry an
obligation to "follow the directions exactly." If it did, just about
every cook in the world would be guilty of copyright infringement...'cuz
I don't know of anyone who's capable of doing more in the kitchen than
making toast who hasn't "improved" or substituted ingredients in recipes
in copyrighted cookbooks...not always successfully, though. :)

Which raises a point: are you sure the structure called for in the plan
will support a larger hull?

Plan copyright infringment
 

At what point does it cease to be the original design and become a new
design for copyright purposes?
Is it the construction method, the shape of the pieces, the way it goes
together?

I'm not trying to cause problems or steal another's work, I'm just asking
questions.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

The issue is not so much whether the finished boat matches the plans
as whether the same boat, whatever the final product looks like, could
have been built without access to the plans. If you used the plans
as guidance to build the boat, and have the warm, sly, feeling that
you saved their cost by changing a few things, it's copyright
infringement.

If you paid for the plans and want to make it bigger or smaller few
architects are going to bother you unless there is something specific
in the sale agreement (if any) or on the plans prohibiting that.

--

Roger Long



"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
The issue is not so much whether the finished boat matches the plans as
whether the same boat, whatever the final product looks like, could have
been built without access to the plans. If you used the plans as
guidance to build the boat, and have the warm, sly, feeling that you saved
their cost by changing a few things, it's copyright infringement.

If you paid for the plans and want to make it bigger or smaller few
architects are going to bother you unless there is something specific in
the sale agreement (if any) or on the plans prohibiting that.

Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales agreement,
what could possibly bar the buyer of a set of plans from making any
modification he wants when he builds a boat? Certainly copyright law would
not have any bearing; that simply bars the duplication of the plans
(typically for profit or for use by someone else; making a backup of a set
of plans on CD for yourself would normally be considered "fair use.")

If I buy plans for a 14-foot skiff and decide to make it 18 feet long, add
an outrigger and carve a mermaid on the bow, it may be ugly and unseaworthy,
but to my knowledge all the original designer could do is grimace or grin.
Of course, I probably couldn't call it a "14-foot Bolger" or whoever
designed it, but that's a different matter.

Your thoughts?

Alex

Plan copyright infringment
 

"Alex"

Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales
agreement,

That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales
agreement". This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case.
For a very special boat that the architect wanted to be sure exactly
reflected his intent, a plans buyer could be asked to sign a separate
document binding him to make no unapproved changes. Without that, the
builder can do anything he wants.

I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be
removed from the design for purposed of sales because it was so
*******ized.

If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just
changing a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of the
obligation to pay the designer for their use.

--

Roger Long

Plan copyright infringment
 

Roger, just asking a question here, but if I look at a set of plans a buddy
built from, then look at 3 or 4 other sets of plans, then using ideas from
ALL sources I've looked at, who do I pay for the use of plans?

There is no one single person whose plans I used completely, but took parts
of perhaps 4 different sets of plans - am I required to pay everyone?

Please understand Roger, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just asking
for info.

Thanks,

Ken H

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Alex"

Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales agreement,

That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales agreement".
This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case. For a very special
boat that the architect wanted to be sure exactly reflected his intent, a
plans buyer could be asked to sign a separate document binding him to make
no unapproved changes. Without that, the builder can do anything he
wants.

I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be removed
from the design for purposed of sales because it was so *******ized.

If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just changing
a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of the obligation to
pay the designer for their use.

--

Roger Long

Plan copyright infringment
 

There are always gray areas where theory and practice diverge. In
theory, if you just look at a plan with a proprietary notice in the
title block, you should pay something for the use of anything in it is
incorporated in a boat. In practice, if you are just getting ideas
from the plans and then build a boat that is different from any of
them, nobody is going to ask you for money or be upset with you. Much
of what is on any set of plans came to the architect from other people
and other plans anyway.

However, if you clearly used the information in one or more of the
plans that is specific to what makes that boat unique and individual,
and it was clearly essential to your boat turning out the way that it
did, you should pay for the plans.

--

Roger Long



"BellSouth" wrote in message
.. .
Roger, just asking a question here, but if I look at a set of plans
a buddy built from, then look at 3 or 4 other sets of plans, then
using ideas from ALL sources I've looked at, who do I pay for the
use of plans?

There is no one single person whose plans I used completely, but
took parts of perhaps 4 different sets of plans - am I required to
pay everyone?

Please understand Roger, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just
asking for info.

Thanks,

Ken H

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Alex"

Roger -- I am curious. Other than contract language in a sales
agreement,

That's what I said, "other than contract language in a sales
agreement". This is virtually unheard of and I can think of a case.
For a very special boat that the architect wanted to be sure
exactly reflected his intent, a plans buyer could be asked to sign
a separate document binding him to make no unapproved changes.
Without that, the builder can do anything he wants.

I have heard of cases where the designer insisted that his name be
removed from the design for purposed of sales because it was so
*******ized.

If you get a set of plans from your buddy who built a boat, just
changing a few, or even a lot of, things does not relieve you of
the obligation to pay the designer for their use.

--

Roger Long

Plan copyright infringment
 

Bill wrote:
: Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on the
: plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

I'm not a lawyer, but I would guess that if you buy a set of plans, you can
make changes to it as you build the boat. If you go look at the home plan
websites, you'll see they sell changeable (printed on mylar or vellums) plans
for more $'s than the regular plan (the changables are eraseable so you can
make your changes and you then copy them). I'm not sure if a similar process
is available for boat plans.

I believe you are committed to 1 boat per set purchased though...

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

Plan copyright infringment
 

Bill,

I've read all the responses to date . . . and I think I'll 'put my oar in'.

First, the safety considerations. It's one thing to change the design of a
shelf, or some other house-hold feature, where the only consequence is that
the final effort may be butt-ugly. It's another thing when you'd be in,
literally, 'over your head' when you are done. In other words . . . know
what you are doing - FIRST. There is a specific way to lengthen a boat
design - and definite limit to how much will be safe. Because you are
actually working with VOLUME, it isn't a simple 'one-to-one' progression.
Another point is a basic scientific / engineering tenet . . . only change
ONE variable at a time. To '. . . change *all* the dimensions . . .' would
be a very dicey proposition, at best.

Now, as to the legalities and philosophical considerations . . . This same
subject has been discussed on the 'woodworking newsgroup' more then once.
There is a precept defined as 'Form Follows Function'. There you can't
copyright 'A Chair', or 'A Shelf', or 'A Cabinet', or 'A Boat'. Nor
something within that 'class', such as 'A Skiff'. However, from a truly
legal standpoint, if you change a 'critical piece or dimension's {add or
subtract a chine, an in- or out-wale, the shape of the stern, or a
significant change in length}it is not considered 'infringement'.

That being said, it also depends on how deep the pockets are on the
'ORIGINATOR'. Disney, for instance, defends their images . . .'womb to
tomb', and have NO humor on the matter. Many other 'corporations' are a bit
more lax . . . one or two pieces at a 'flea market' type setting are
typically ignored. Plus the fact that the public is fickle . . . trends are
very transient in this type of environment. Some plans are even sold with a
printed proviso that 25 {or so} items CAN be made.

Most boat plans {that I have seen}state that ONE boat can be made from them
{'unless prior arrangements. . ., etc., etc.'}. However we have ALL seen
offers for 'used' plans on this forum, on e-bay, and other venues. All the
ones I've seen have been for 'stock' plans. It is often stated that the cost
of the plans are only a very small fraction of the ENTIRE final cost of the
boat. The advantage of buying from the Designer {or his authorized Agent}is
that HELP is only a telephone call, e-mail, or letter away. {YES - designers
DO keep a record of who buys what . . . some even have a letter with a
Serial # accompanying them !!} While people like 'Dynamite' or Phil may be
truly nice people and answer some general questions, but a constant barrage
on a 'free ride' . . . ???

From a 'philosophical' standpoint I think it's a matter of 'intent'. To
'tweek' a design to suit YOUR specific circumstances {or propensities} is
like Peggy said . . . modifying a recipe. It's not that Joanne doesn't like
chili because of the 'heat' . . . she doesn't like the smell of CUMIN. So I
just leave it out. If I remember correctly, 'Dynamite' said that he wanted
to sell plans for boats 'that got built'. Which is why his books feature
Full Feature Plans, and boats can be built from them. Agreed, a full sized
set are easier to read, etc. I even make copies of the 'originals', to take
into the shop. The one time I've contacted 'Dynamite' & Phil about a boat,
was when I was asked to repair a 7-year old one. While the hull 'proper' was
sound, the owner had stored the boat up-side down . . . 'on grade' and the
transoms were rotted out!! NOT my epoxy & glass 'sheathing' . . . but the
3/4inch Mahogany {MY modification - the plans called for 1/4inch} stock. The
customer had asked about 'repair' {which we all thought impractical}. My
'solution' was to cut off both transoms and about an inch of hull. Then
build & install new ones . . . shortening the boat by about 3 to 4 inches.
Neither had any negative comment about either my 'modification' or
'solution' - only the obvious . . . build a new boat. {which I offered as an
alternate . . . much less then the 'repair', but still not the same price as
7 years ago !!}.

On a similar note, I had contacted Phil several years ago about putting a
small 'pilothouse' on 'DIABLO'. His opinion was that the hull size would not
'balance' the structure . . . and recommended 'DIABLO GRANDE' as a platform.
Also, if memory serves, I read an article wherein Phil had requested that
his name NOT be associated with a severe modification to one of his designs.
It was not a question of copyright, he was of the opinion that the changes
would be UNSAFE and make the boat DANGEROUS to operate.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop


"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the
plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

Bill,

Thanks for the note. Glad my words/thoughts were appreciated.

While I'm not sure about canoe's, it isn't just the overall percentage
difference. The important part is HOW you locate that difference.

I have a set of STOCK plans from a well-known designer. It was a larger
version of an earlier boat. {Most likely offered because of 'customer
demand'}Neither was 'new' so probably 100's had already been sold.
IMMEDIATELY after opening them & and looking them over . . . 'something'
seemed 'wrong'. I couldn't put my finger on it, but they just didn't
look right/smooth. {Bare in mind, although my background is engineering,
I am NOT a Naval Architect. Nor do I use 'Hulls', or any other such
program.

If memory serves, it was a multi-chine hull with a skiff-type 'pointy
bow', as opposed to the 'transom bow' of a pram-type. Because of the
forward shape, the panels had an asymmetrical curve. There was NO WAY
the curve could be achieved fairly with the indicated 'plot points'
{Station Locations}. Or maybe it was just something I had missed. {At
this point I had not yet lofted the plans.}I felt foolish, but I wrote
to the designer, and 'asked' if he had missed a 'plot point'. I received
a note back, from his firm - not directly from him. Enclosed was a
segment of a new plan . . . with the MISSING point NOW indicated.

MY guess is that the plans were 'computer generated' and the length
changed by just 'stretching' the fore part of the design. However,
'somebody' didn't think . . . and didn't bother to re-calculate the
station positions !! I often wonder how many people bought these plans
and built boats from them - either an awful mess or given up in
frustration !!

One of my 'anal' habits is to make a copy of any new plan. I then cut-up
the plan, mount the 'parts' on some heavy 'poster board' and make a
'plan scale' model. This gives me an idea how the boat will look - in 3
dimensions - , give me a feel for any building problems, and show up any
errors I may have missed. {I them make ANOTHER copy to take into the
shop . . . NEVER originals}.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop



"Bill" wrote in message
. ..
Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions on
the
plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

Plan copyright infringment
 

Bill writes:

Is it considered copyright infringement to change all the dimensions
on the plans in order to enlarge the boat for personal use?

No one in this thread seems to understand that US copyrights do not protect
designs, only the *expressions* in the plan documents themselves. You can
make your own drawings of the same design, modify the design, build the
design, etc., without regard to copyrights.

Anyone can build a boat in any design they like, including copying existing
designs. The fact that someone drew a design on paper doesn't stop you
from building something.

Copyrights simply do not apply to utilitarian objects. Boats, cars,
houses, furniture, clothes, etc.