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Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was
newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? If it has to be redone, do I have to take off the old paint as well? Or, with a scuff-up, will the bottom adhere, and (perhaps?) re-activate the old stuff? Meanwhile, some of you who had previously asked have received an invitation to join our yahoogroups log list. If you'd like to hear about our adventures, join up with the link below... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
How can it die if it was never alive?
Hummm.... "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message oups.com... As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? If it has to be redone, do I have to take off the old paint as well? Or, with a scuff-up, will the bottom adhere, and (perhaps?) re-activate the old stuff? Meanwhile, some of you who had previously asked have received an invitation to join our yahoogroups log list. If you'd like to hear about our adventures, join up with the link below... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
oups.com: As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? If it has to be redone, do I have to take off the old paint as well? Or, with a scuff-up, will the bottom adhere, and (perhaps?) re-activate the old stuff? Contact the mfg of the paint and ask them. Each paint is different. The Micron CSC that I use can remain out of the water for extended periods (I don't know about 2 years), but other paints "die" after getting pulled out. -- Geoff |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Skip Gundlach wrote:
As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? If it has to be redone, do I have to take off the old paint as well? Or, with a scuff-up, will the bottom adhere, and (perhaps?) re-activate the old stuff? Meanwhile, some of you who had previously asked have received an invitation to join our yahoogroups log list. If you'd like to hear about our adventures, join up with the link below... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain If it's a leaching antifouling it requires contact with (and movement thru) water to leach it. |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
"Skip Gundlach" wrote As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. You should ask paint manufacturer. But what I would recommend, is to lightly sand the bottom to remove any surface oxidation. I would probably also apply one coat just to freshen it up. |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Skip,
Simplest . . . if you still have the can . . . read the label. If not contact the mfg. {the Internet is wonderful . . . sometimes}. Ask about the SPECIFIC product, not just 'your ablative paints'. I've been through 2 'options' before using the present 'preparation' . . . the West Marine 'house brand' ablative {CPP Plus . . a 'Doppleganger' to Interlux Micron CSC}. To quote - '. . . provides a smooth, self-polishing finish with no paint build up. The more coats you apply, the longer it lasts.' And '. . . For CPP & PCA the launch widow is INDEFINITE {my caps}. Paint in good condition will reactivate upon launch'. By it's very nature an 'ablative' is NOT a 'leaching' finish - it's a 'self-polishing' which means it wears away {'carrier' and 'biocide'}as it is 'used'. It is not as 'exotic' as the 'Modern Stuff' {unless you count West's PCA or Interlux's Micron Extra - both have Irgarol for slime 'prevention'} and doesn't have a high biocide load - with it's 'mechanics' it doesn't need it. For ablatives, THREE coats is the recommended initial application - again from the 'more is better' school. Personally, I use this to my advantage . . .. and maybe that is why 'they' recommended it . . . without the original reasoning. The first coat is your 'flag' coat. It is a DIFFERENT color from the subsequent coats {In my case I use RED and over-coat with BLUE}. I also give a bit more paint to specific 'wear areas' - chines, keel, cu****er. When the boat is hauled out, and bottom washed before winter storage, a quick look is all that is needed to check the paint condition. The 'FLAG COLOR' will show where the anti-fouling has almost worn away and needs 'refreshing'. Regards & Good Luck, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop "Skip Gundlach" wrote SNIP 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? SNIP |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question) Attn: RON MAGEN
See interspersed comments, please:
"Ron Magen" wrote in message news:%n0Dg.1651$MW.552@trnddc04... Skip, Simplest . . . if you still have the can . . . read the label. If not contact the mfg. {the Internet is wonderful . . . sometimes}. Ask about the SPECIFIC product, not just 'your ablative paints'. I've been through 2 'options' before using the present 'preparation' . . . the West Marine 'house brand' ablative {CPP Plus . . a 'Doppleganger' to Interlux Micron CSC}. To quote - '. . . provides a smooth, self-polishing finish with no paint build up. The more coats you apply, the longer it lasts.' And '. . . For CPP & PCA the launch widow is INDEFINITE {my caps}. Paint in good condition will reactivate upon launch'. Ron, I have been given some unopened cans of CPP Plus and...... How long can W.Marine CPP Plus be 'stored' unused in an unopened can ? Can it be tinted after purchase, e.g. if you bought royal blue could you later change it to navy blue ? How ? If one wants to barrier coat the hull, can this be done and then use the CPP Plus, or what ? Does your flag coat comment mean that..... different colors must be bought, e.g. red and blue, or is some merely tinted after purchase and just before applying ? Thank you for your time, Courtney The first coat is your 'flag' coat. It is a DIFFERENT color from the subsequent coats {In my case I use RED and over-coat with BLUE}. I also give a bit more paint to specific 'wear areas' - chines, keel, cu****er. When the boat is hauled out, and bottom washed before winter storage, a quick look is all that is needed to check the paint condition. The 'FLAG COLOR' will show where the anti-fouling has almost worn away and needs 'refreshing'. Regards & Good Luck, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop "Skip Gundlach" wrote SNIP 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? SNIP |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
In article .com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote: As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. Ablative paint doesn't "die". BUT, since you have the boat out of the water, why not splash on a couple more coats? the boat's already dry.... Make it a different color if you don't have a "reveal" coat under what's there now. Put extra coats at the waterline, leading edges, and the whole rudder. After a single good coat, we went two seasons with only touch-ups where the under-color was showing. Would have gone a third year, except that a sale was going on and a gallon was only slightly more than a quart. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Hi, Jere, and group,
Jere Lull wrote: In article .com, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. Ablative paint doesn't "die". That's what I thought. My presumption had been that one scuffed it up to get off the sloughed stuff and reactivate the stuff, as well as provide a tooth for the new stuff to adhere to. You wouldn't believe the amount of contradicting assertions we've gotten in the last few days. That's because... BUT, since you have the boat out of the water, why not splash on a couple more coats? the boat's already dry.... Make it a different color if you don't have a "reveal" coat under what's there now. Put extra coats at the waterline, leading edges, and the whole rudder. The plot thickens (like epoxy in hot weather)... Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. I'll try to keep it to the short story that it was sold to us as blister-free, but on survey (2.3 years ago, during the purchase) it was obvious that there were many blisters. Our current gallery of August06 in the repair and refit sectoin of our main gallery has the blister pix, if you have a curiosity of that. These blisters are largely dry - only a few smelled when chipped off - so they aren't really an issue. However, lots of grinding has taken place already, and we're going back with epoxy over all the grinds, and fiberglass where deep enough. We've had directly contradicting assertions from supposedly knowledgeable people as to whether that's the right stuf to use, but that's what we're going to do absent some authoritatively documented reason why not is presented. Some time in the past, this boat was peeled and presumed epoxy barrier coated. The grinds above have confirmed the barrier coat, but prior repairs of blisters were done solely for cosmetic purposes - many of the ground areas show prior blue marker lines - just like all the rest of the 3+ weeks it was in the yard prior to sale: all cosmetic, no substance.... So, we'll patch it all up, addressing only the worst of the blisters, putting more of the same color paint on the repairs, give a scuff sand to the entirety, and paint the snot out of it in a different color. In our grinds, it was apparent that there was an underlying red paint over the epoxy layer, and then the blue we are wearing and grinding now. We'll probably go back with another red, unless we can find something else interesting for contrast color. The names are now also on the bow, along with the mini logos, plus the larger logos on the stern, and the hailing port on the transom. The Flying Pig is aloft and gaining altitude :{)) FWIW, we've started a yahoogroup for our loglist, some of you having previously requested being notified of such. You can find it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog/, and join there, drop me a line for an invitation, or just click the link below to send a message to the group. It's currently open - that is, anyone may join. It's also unmoderated, meaning anyone can post. However, it's not intended as a discussion list, so that may change if traffic goes aground too often :{)) L8R Skip, back to hard piping the stern head, and Lydia, back to epoxying ground blisters Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
In article .com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote: The plot thickens (like epoxy in hot weather)... Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. Dang! It's always something, isn't it? I'd review http://yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm (again) before you continue. Our 35 year-old non-epoxy is still fine, and epoxy has serious drawbacks. Because you already have a reveal coat, I'd stick with the current color. No need to get confused whether a patch is the first or second red layer. And don't scuff for adhesion -- since there's not much to be had, it IS intended to be ablative and the fresh coat will chemically etch and bond -- but only slightly for roughness. No need to remove stuff that's still good. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Hi, Jere, and group,
Jere Lull wrote: In article .com, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. Dang! It's always something, isn't it? I'd review http://yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm (again) before you continue. Our 35 year-old non-epoxy is still fine, and epoxy has serious drawbacks. I'm quite familiar with Pascoe's site - marvelous resource - but am wondering about drawbacks. This boat was previously peeled, and barrier coated with something - presumed to be epoxy - which is evident in the grinding/sanding process. I'd thought the normal barrier coat *was* epoxy (??)... Because you already have a reveal coat, I'd stick with the current color. No need to get confused whether a patch is the first or second red layer. Heh. We'll have had to go through all the blue first - and I presume we'd have had to go through the red, if that's what we use on top - so it ought to be a last-ditch "gotta get paint on this, *NOW* sort of thing. And don't scuff for adhesion -- since there's not much to be had, it IS intended to be ablative and the fresh coat will chemically etch and bond -- but only slightly for roughness. No need to remove stuff that's still good. What about all the oxidation, cleaner runoff from PoliGlow prep (not yet applied; stay tuned), and other indignities on the otherwise clean bottom? Thanks for any real-world experience. Ours will next to never be out of the water, so we'd like to do as much to extend the time between repaints as possible... L8R Skip and Lydia Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a great, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
If it's a normal ablative paint, it should still be as effective upon
splashing as the day it was applied; think of a bar of soap. And it's not an irreversible situation, why not splash and see how it goes? If the paint's ineffective, you can haul and take care of it. You'll be hauling every few years anyway, so it's a case of hauling sooner than expected the first time, if the paint's somehow become no good. Skip Gundlach wrote: As many of you know, we're close to splashing our 2-year refit. It was newly ablative bottom painted when we bought it. A local asserts that the bottom paint is dead, and it will have to be redone. How say you who have experienced this? Not hard, ablative, out of the water for a couple of years essentially immediately after application? If it has to be redone, do I have to take off the old paint as well? Or, with a scuff-up, will the bottom adhere, and (perhaps?) re-activate the old stuff? Meanwhile, some of you who had previously asked have received an invitation to join our yahoogroups log list. If you'd like to hear about our adventures, join up with the link below... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
In article .com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote: Jere Lull wrote: I'd review http://yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm (again) before you continue. Our 35 year-old non-epoxy is still fine, and epoxy has serious drawbacks. I'm quite familiar with Pascoe's site - marvelous resource - but am wondering about drawbacks. This boat was previously peeled, and barrier coated with something - presumed to be epoxy - which is evident in the grinding/sanding process. I'd thought the normal barrier coat *was* epoxy (??)... Epoxy/Barrier coat only *slows* water migration. NOTHING will stop the water getting in, particularly since a significant source of moisture is the bilge, on the other side of the hull. More than that, I'll leave to Pascoe, who I think described it nicely. The problem with epoxy is that nothing sticks to it well -- the best you can get is a mechanical bond. If you can be assured that you never will have to deal with an area again, go with epoxy, but I'll use a good, fresh polyester for everything else as the next layer will slightly chemically bond to the previous one to give a greater grip than a pure mechanical bond. As far as the paint goes: Ablative doesn't go bad for the purposes we're talking. Oxidation, stuff spilled on it, whatever, won't make much difference after a few miles. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
"Jere Lull" wrote The problem with epoxy is that nothing sticks to it well -- the best you can get is a mechanical bond. If you can be assured that you never will have to deal with an area again, go with epoxy, but I'll use a good, fresh polyester for everything else as the next layer will slightly chemically bond to the previous one to give a greater grip than a pure mechanical bond. Jere, I am puzzled by the above statement. It is not what I thought was generally accepted. One of the problems with fibreglass repairs done using polyester resin, is that secondary bonding (new polyester to old polyester) has poor strength. This is generally accepted in the industry. Epoxy resins have superior secondary bonding strength for fibreglass repairs. But, due to cost, most fibreglass repairs are done with polyester. When it comes to blister repair, 2-part epoxy pastes are the norm. Even the website you referenced says that: http://yachtsurvey.com/BlisterFail2.htm If your concern is overcoating an epoxy barrier coat, then following a manufacturer's procedures is important. Interlux have a system for their Interprotect barrier coat which if followed works well. It should be well documented on their web site. It was interesting to read the yachtsurvey site. He is adamant that boats should not be sandblasted. There is some basis for this, because often the sandblasting only exposes some bubbles, but in other areas it just removes more of the gelcoat leaving unexposed bubbles below. Peeling may be better, but sometimes this process is not available or is just too expensive. I have personally seen medium to heavy sandblasting , followed by grinding of individual blisters carried out successfully (maybe 30 or more boats) - By that I mean 15+ years with no blisters re-appearing. In all cases, the Interprotect system was used with either Micron or VC-17 antifouling. I believe that one of the biggest reasons for blister repair failures is not allowing the hull to dry after sandblasting or peeling. In southern climes, this can be almost impossible to achieve without building a dehumidified enclosure. We have probably had much better success because in the North, it is very dry in the winter - and the boats can dry for 5 or 6 months because owners are not too anxious to go sailing Nov-Mar! Even today, anyone buying or building a new boat should consider having 4 or more coats of epoxy applied before applying antifouling. Follow paint manufacturer's instructions for hull dewaxing and other preparation. Boats in our area treated this way have NEVER had blisters. |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Jere Lull wrote:
In article .com, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: The plot thickens (like epoxy in hot weather)... Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. I don't know how, if you hauled the boat for survey and had any kind of competent surveyor you got a boat that you didn't know was blistered When we bought our boat it was 20 years old. The PO had peeled the bottom and put on 20 coats of epoxy IIRC. When we hauled it for the survey, the surveyor said there were 'cosmetic' blisters - he pointed them out to me, and I saw them. We decided to do nothing. We've never seen the blisters again. The max we've seen are a couple around the waterline at the edge of the epoxy coat. We've always had the boat either red or blue (alternatively), because we heard that whales don't like black hulled boats or another color that I can't remember what it is. Dang! It's always something, isn't it? I'd review http://yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm (again) before you continue. Our 35 year-old non-epoxy is still fine, and epoxy has serious drawbacks. Because you already have a reveal coat, I'd stick with the current color. No need to get confused whether a patch is the first or second red layer. And don't scuff for adhesion -- since there's not much to be had, it IS intended to be ablative and the fresh coat will chemically etch and bond -- but only slightly for roughness. No need to remove stuff that's still good. |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
In article ,
"OldSailor" wrote: "Jere Lull" wrote The problem with epoxy is that nothing sticks to it well -- the best you can get is a mechanical bond. If you can be assured that you never will have to deal with an area again, go with epoxy, but I'll use a good, fresh polyester for everything else as the next layer will slightly chemically bond to the previous one to give a greater grip than a pure mechanical bond. Jere, I am puzzled by the above statement. It is not what I thought was generally accepted. One of the problems with fibreglass repairs done using polyester resin, is that secondary bonding (new polyester to old polyester) has poor strength. I did say "slightly". Having tried to do more work on top of epoxy, I won't do it again. I used to have a site to cite, but can't find it off-hand and won't get much time to look for it until sailing season is over -- I get only one day a week on usenet with the amount of time we're out. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Would that mean the object appears black, or white?
I can't believe transparent. Roger http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:21:38 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote: We've always had the boat either red or blue (alternatively), because we heard that whales don't like black hulled boats or another color that I can't remember what it is. Whales cannot see the color blue. CWM |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Hi, grandma, and group,
Rosalie B. wrote: Jere Lull wrote: In article .com, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: The plot thickens (like epoxy in hot weather)... Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. I don't know how, if you hauled the boat for survey and had any kind of competent surveyor you got a boat that you didn't know was blistered Did I say that i didn't know about them? The boat was represented to us as no-blisters, and on haulout, I was nearly ready to walk. As it was, i sulked through most of the sea trial, I was so bummed. What had me bummed was two things: It obviously wasn't "no blisters" - and what was there was poorly repaired prior blisters, or poor application of the barrier coat or both. The blisters we saw mostly went "thock" rather than squish (well, I can't say that *any* went "squish"). Now, on sanding or grinding them, they're nearly all dry - but definitely blistered. Only a few have had a chemical smell to them, which, because the boat has been on the hard for more than 2 years, clearly shows that the problem was under the barrier coat in those. Worse, most of the time, we see prior blue marks from where someone used a sharpie over the red coat to mark the blister. Some of these are substantially under the barrier coat - thus the "thock" when you hit it. Others of them just make a dull sound where there used to be, all around it, sharp report. After all that, though, like most blisters, and as Pascoe points out, it's not a structural issue. It's just "do it right" so we don't have to do it again. It's a pain in the neck, but the exterior of this boat will look as new, so we might as well get the bottom while we're donig it. When we bought our boat it was 20 years old. The PO had peeled the bottom and put on 20 coats of epoxy IIRC. When we hauled it for the survey, the surveyor said there were 'cosmetic' blisters - he pointed them out to me, and I saw them. We decided to do nothing. We've never seen the blisters again. Resisting the obvious question of haulouts or inspection, I presume you must be very lucky. Having a blister disappear isn't nearly as common as having more occur after barrier coating, AFIK. The max we've seen are a couple around the waterline at the edge of the epoxy coat. We've always had the boat either red or blue (alternatively), because we heard that whales don't like black hulled boats or another color that I can't remember what it is. Hm. I'd not heard that. The current coat is blue, and Lydia wants to go back over, once the blisters are repaired, and those spots touched up, with black. I'm not sure how many whale problems there are in the Caribbean, so I don't know that it's worth worrying about, but, then again, the Caribbean, as seen in some of the mailing lists of which I'm part, may not be so safe for other more political reasons. So, we're going to fix them all, put blue over all the repairs, and then put a very heavy application of new ablative, with more on the waterline and rudder, accompanied by PropSpeed on the running gear, which is new between the tranny and the prop, dripless packing included (Thanks, Roger!). Due to all the repairs which have been done by that time, once all the repairs have been overcoated after fairing, we'll give a toothcoat sanding to all of it and then commence to bottom painting while Lydia does the Poli-Glow. News at 11, so to speak, in my usual voluminous galleries. Current project(s) are rewiring the forward bilge pump, relocating and replumbing the aft bilge pump, and hardpiping the aft head (along with new supply hose and new cockpit scupper monster hose, all of which lives under the aft head platform). Lydia's started her occasional mailing of the news of the day from the warm-fuzzy side in the google group Flying Pig Log, and I pop into the yahoogroup The Flying Pig Log less frequently but with more detailed and technical commentary, for those interested... L8R Skip and Lydia, sweltering in the St. Pete Hete Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
Jere Lull wrote:
I did say "slightly". Having tried to do more work on top of epoxy, I won't do it again. I wonder if the problem was amine blush. This is a waxy film that develops across the surface of most epoxies as they cure. I've done secondary bonds using epoxy quite a lot... both epoxy to epoxy, and epoxy to polyester... and found it to be so much superior to polyester that I won't even bother with polyester resin any more. One problem with epoxy is that it can form a much more dense surface and be very much harder to work/shape than polester... an argument in favor of getting it right the first time. Using peel ply & barrier film helps a lot! Fresh Breezes- Doug king |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
Hi, grandma, and group, Rosalie B. wrote: Jere Lull wrote: In article .com, "Skip Gundlach" wrote: The plot thickens (like epoxy in hot weather)... Our boat is covered in poorly repaired blisters. I don't know how, if you hauled the boat for survey and had any kind of competent surveyor you got a boat that you didn't know was blistered Did I say that i didn't know about them? The boat was represented to us as no-blisters, and on haulout, I was nearly ready to walk. As it was, i sulked through most of the sea trial, I was so bummed. OK - that wasn't clear and I didn't remember that, or maybe I missed it. What had me bummed was two things: It obviously wasn't "no blisters" - and what was there was poorly repaired prior blisters, or poor application of the barrier coat or both. The blisters we saw mostly went "thock" rather than squish (well, I can't say that *any* went "squish"). Now, on sanding or grinding them, they're nearly all dry - but definitely blistered. Only a few have had a chemical smell to them, which, because the boat has been on the hard for more than 2 years, clearly shows that the problem was under the barrier coat in those. Worse, most of the time, we see prior blue marks from where someone used a sharpie over the red coat to mark the blister. Some of these are substantially under the barrier coat - thus the "thock" when you hit it. Others of them just make a dull sound where there used to be, all around it, sharp report. After all that, though, like most blisters, and as Pascoe points out, it's not a structural issue. It's just "do it right" so we don't have to do it again. It's a pain in the neck, but the exterior of this boat will look as new, so we might as well get the bottom while we're donig it. When we bought our boat it was 20 years old. The PO had peeled the bottom and put on 20 coats of epoxy IIRC. When we hauled it for the survey, the surveyor said there were 'cosmetic' blisters - he pointed them out to me, and I saw them. We decided to do nothing. We've never seen the blisters again. Resisting the obvious question of haulouts or inspection, I presume you must be very lucky. Having a blister disappear isn't nearly as common as having more occur after barrier coating, AFIK. We bought the boat in 1998. We had it in the water (brackish) through the 98-99 winter because the marina had no capability for hauling our size boat. In April 99 we cashed in a boat haul and wash that we won at the boat show the previous October, and then put it back in the water where it stayed for that summer. The following winter (1999-2000), we hauled for the winter. After that we went down the ICW in the winter two years, and came back in the spring, hauled and painted the bottom and put the boat back in again each year. The next time we hauled for the winter was 2002-2003 right after Bob's heart attack. Bob figured the blisters (which were small - about the size of a quarter) were incompletely adhered paint and in the outer paint skin only and they probably wore off. I KNOW I saw them and they are mentioned in the survey report. (Otherwise Bob might be inclined to tell me I was delusional.) I know I've never seen them again. The max we've seen are a couple around the waterline at the edge of the epoxy coat. We've always had the boat either red or blue (alternatively), because we heard that whales don't like black hulled boats or another color that I can't remember what it is. Hm. I'd not heard that. The current coat is blue, and Lydia wants to go back over, once the blisters are repaired, and those spots touched up, with black. I'm not sure how many whale problems there are in the Caribbean, so I don't know that it's worth worrying about, but, then again, the Caribbean, as seen in some of the mailing lists of which I'm part, may not be so safe for other more political reasons. So, we're going to fix them all, put blue over all the repairs, and then put a very heavy application of new ablative, with more on the waterline and rudder, accompanied by PropSpeed on the running gear, which is new between the tranny and the prop, dripless packing included (Thanks, Roger!). Due to all the repairs which have been done by that time, once all the repairs have been overcoated after fairing, we'll give a toothcoat sanding to all of it and then commence to bottom painting while Lydia does the Poli-Glow. News at 11, so to speak, in my usual voluminous galleries. Current project(s) are rewiring the forward bilge pump, relocating and replumbing the aft bilge pump, and hardpiping the aft head (along with new supply hose and new cockpit scupper monster hose, all of which lives under the aft head platform). Lydia's started her occasional mailing of the news of the day from the warm-fuzzy side in the google group Flying Pig Log, and I pop into the yahoogroup The Flying Pig Log less frequently but with more detailed and technical commentary, for those interested... L8R Skip and Lydia, sweltering in the St. Pete Hete Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ Follow us at "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Getting to the bottom of it... (Ablative question)
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:04:54 -0400, DSK wrote:
I've done secondary bonds using epoxy quite a lot... both epoxy to epoxy, and epoxy to polyester... and found it to be so much superior to polyester that I won't even bother with polyester resin any more. Ditto that, I've had much better experiences with epoxy as long as the old surface is cleaned and sanded. After some bad batches of polyester I decided long ago that my time was way more valuable than the cost of materials, especially when you are limited to working weekends. |
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