Epoxy Fillers
 

I have been using Phenolic Micro Balloons while taping the outer
chines, transom, and bow of my drift boat (especially to hold the tape
in place on the vertical surfaces) and as fairing compound to smooth
everything out after taping, because of the ease of sanding, but have
noticed tha glass micro balloons are about 1/2 as expensive as the
Phenolic balloons.

What are the strengths/weaknesses of using the glass balloons vs the
phenolic vs wood flour (which I used over the tape on the fillets of
the inner chines)?

I have also been considering using in the future a mixture of micro
fibers and some type of balloons w/ maybe a little fumed silica in the
future for my chine work, with micro balloons for fairing and
smoothing.

What are the relative merits of the different fillers above mentioned?

Thanks!

Epoxy Fillers
 

A while back I wrote an entire article about epoxy 'tools' and included a
vast array of fillers {check the archives at www.duckworksmagazine.com . . .
under 'Columns'}

Basically, my STRUCTURAL 'filler of choice' is wood flour. In addition to
it's capabilities as a filler, it also has thixotopic properties. Silica is
more of a 'thixotopic additive' than an actual filler . . . as in
'non-sagging'. In addition, it cures VERY hard. Phenolic and Glass Micro
Balloons are in the COSMETIC class of fillers, along with Talc . . . hence
the ease of sanding. Because their surface is then rather porous, a further
'painting' with un-thickened epoxy is recommended.

Take a look at any number of booklets on the subject from almost any of the
usual suppliers {I use RAKA from Larry Steves}. Get familiar with the
properties of all the typical fillers. Then you can either use them 'as is',
or mix them to 'custom match' the filler to YOUR particular task. Along with
Wood Flour, I keep on hand {in order of 'hardness'} Fumed Silica, Phenolic
Balloons, Glass Balloons, and Talc. I also keep Glass Fibers {1/4 inch} and
Milled Glass Fibers {1/32 inch}for when I need extra strength of
cohesiveness.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"raposaNegra" wrote in message
om...
I have been using Phenolic Micro Balloons while taping the outer
chines, transom, and bow of my drift boat (especially to hold the tape
in place on the vertical surfaces) and as fairing compound to smooth
everything out after taping, because of the ease of sanding, but have
noticed tha glass micro balloons are about 1/2 as expensive as the
Phenolic balloons.

What are the strengths/weaknesses of using the glass balloons vs the
phenolic vs wood flour (which I used over the tape on the fillets of
the inner chines)?

I have also been considering using in the future a mixture of micro
fibers and some type of balloons w/ maybe a little fumed silica in the
future for my chine work, with micro balloons for fairing and
smoothing.

What are the relative merits of the different fillers above mentioned?

Thanks!

Epoxy Fillers
 

Don't forget to think about wheat flour. 5 lb. is US $1.75. The
missus probably has some older stuff perhaps so make a test. I mix up
my 2:1 expoy to make three ounces, and found that 2/3 Cup bread flour
makes a very thick putty. It does not finish smooth, but very rough.
A thinner mix will flow some. Also it mixes in the epoxy much better
than talc.

I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.


--
I don't speak for Intel
Michael Kelly (the one in Folsom)
"and nobody is fooled except the usual fools."
--Jonah Goldberg

Epoxy Fillers
 

"Michael Kelly writes:

I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.

OK for talc, but for microballoons you are getting screwed.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Michael Kelly writes:


I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.


OK for talc, but for microballoons you are getting screwed.

A pound of microballons has got to be an awful lot of material. I
thought they were sold by volume.

Epoxy Fillers
 

"Brian Nystrom" writes:

A pound of microballons has got to be an awful lot of material. I
thought they were sold by volume.

I buy mine in 30 lb bags which is 4 cubic ft.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

There's a cabinet shop near me. I get the woodflour I want for free.
They wish I'd take more.

Check your yellow pages. Chances are the a place near you.

--
Matt Langenfeld
JEM Watercraft
jemwatercraft.com

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Michael Kelly writes:


I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.


OK for talc, but for microballoons you are getting screwed.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

"Matt Langenfeld" writes:
\ There's a cabinet shop near me. I get the woodflour I want for free.
They wish I'd take more.

It's worth what you pay for it.

Great way to waste good epoxy.

As the old saying goes, "Buy em books, they eat the covers."

Lew



Check your yellow pages. Chances are the a place near you.

--
Matt Langenfeld
JEM Watercraft
jemwatercraft.com

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Michael Kelly writes:


I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.


OK for talc, but for microballoons you are getting screwed.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Matt Langenfeld" writes:
\ There's a cabinet shop near me. I get the woodflour I want for free.

They wish I'd take more.


It's worth what you pay for it.

Great way to waste good epoxy.

As the old saying goes, "Buy em books, they eat the covers."

Forget it Lew. Until they understand what fumed silica and microballons
do it is no use to argue.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Epoxy Fillers
 

"Glenn Ashmore" writes:

Forget it Lew. Until they understand what fumed silica and microballons
do it is no use to argue.

Agreed, but sometimes I get bored.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Re microbaloon costs. I help make one of these products. And no, I can't
get you free samples. But the prices you are quoting are something like
twice the selling price in bulk quantities. I'm talking shipping container
loads of several tonnes. In those quantities it's sold by mass.

If you are getting one pound mass of spheres in your tin at a retail level,
you are getting a very good deal. I'd suspect however you are getting
whatever fits into a "1 pound tin" - whatever that is. So I can't comment
on what additional costs and margins have been added along the distribution
chain, sufficient to say that anyone who has ever handled this sort of
product will recognise that measuring and re-packaging it is not the easiest
exercise.

I'd rather not get into a discussion of the various measurements of density,
suffice to say that what you are really adding to the epoxy is encapsulated
air. The air is added to modify the properties of the epoxy ( lighter,
easier to sand, different viscosity , whatever ), and/or to reduce the cost
for a given volume.

If you are only interested in reducing the volume cost, I'd be surprised if
it's worth adding a hollow sphere product unless you are using some pretty
serious quantities of resin and filler. If it's volume cost you need to
reduce, there are much cheaper fillers than hollow spheres, but they are
heavier. If it's viscosity you need to increase, Glen has pointed to fumed
silica - it's got the surface area.

Since any filler changes the properties of the polymer it's being added to
( not necessarily for the worse) it's like Glen says - you should understand
what the filler does in the resin system you are working with before you
think about the costs.
DF


"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Glenn Ashmore" writes:

Forget it Lew. Until they understand what fumed silica and microballons
do it is no use to argue.

Agreed, but sometimes I get bored.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Well in keeping this in the spirit of friendly information sharing we
have started....isn't talc a very heavy alternative? Are microbaloons
not a bad idea for structural fillets?



Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Matt Langenfeld" writes:
\ There's a cabinet shop near me. I get the woodflour I want for free.

They wish I'd take more.


It's worth what you pay for it.

Great way to waste good epoxy.

As the old saying goes, "Buy em books, they eat the covers."

Lew



Check your yellow pages. Chances are the a place near you.

--
Matt Langenfeld
JEM Watercraft
jemwatercraft.com

Lew Hodgett wrote:

"Michael Kelly writes:



I pay US $5 for a 1 lb. can of talc or micro baloons.


OK for talc, but for microballoons you are getting screwed.

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Lew says:

but sometimes I get bored.

We'd noticed... ;-)

Steve

Epoxy Fillers
 

"Lew Hodgett" ) writes:
"Glenn Ashmore" writes:

Forget it Lew. Until they understand what fumed silica and microballons
do it is no use to argue.

Agreed, but sometimes I get bored.

How can anyone with that many microbaloons be bored?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Epoxy Fillers
 

"Matt Langenfeld" writes:

Well in keeping this in the spirit of friendly information sharing we
have started....isn't talc a very heavy alternative? Are microbaloons
not a bad idea for structural fillets?

Talc does nothing but add dead weight.

As far as micro-balloons for structural fillets are concerned, depends on
what you define as a "fillet".

If it is simply a fairing putty used as a gap filling glue with a fillet
formed by a popsicle stick, that is one thing, if you are trying to bridge
say a 1" wide fillet, that is quite another.

For small fillets, NBD, for large fillets, cover putty fillet with a piece
of glass and wet out with epoxy.

As an example, the bulkheads in my boat were installed with a fairing putty
fillet covered by a piece of 24 oz DB glass, about 8" wide to bond them to
the hull.

HTH

Lew

Epoxy Fillers
 

Isn't fumed silica the stuff that smells like hickory smoke? LOL

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project


..
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:R8sAc.8468$cj3.961@lakeread01...


Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Matt Langenfeld" writes:
\ There's a cabinet shop near me. I get the woodflour I want for free.

They wish I'd take more.


It's worth what you pay for it.

Great way to waste good epoxy.

As the old saying goes, "Buy em books, they eat the covers."

Forget it Lew. Until they understand what fumed silica and microballons
do it is no use to argue.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Epoxy Fillers
 

Brian D says:

Isn't fumed silica the stuff that smells like hickory smoke? LOL

That's the cheap stuff - the good stuff smells like mesquite.

Epoxy Fillers
 

now I'm gettng hungry.

Stephen Baker wrote:
Brian D says:


Isn't fumed silica the stuff that smells like hickory smoke? LOL


That's the cheap stuff - the good stuff smells like mesquite.

Epoxy Fillers
 

Matt L says:

now I'm gettng hungry.

LOL! Throw another prawn on the barbie - I'll be there in a couple of
minutes... ;-)

Steve