Resins, Fillers and glues
 

All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Parallax ) writes:
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

I did some research at the public library and in this newsgroup before
building my first small plywood boat in 1999. Any home repair book at the
public library will have a section on adhesives although they don't deal
specifically with boats. At that time I used screws and urea formaldehyde
adhesive, a water resistent plastic resin first used in the 1930's on
plywood motor torpedo boats and plywood airplanes in the war and still
used in the manufacture of plywood, predating epoxide resins (I used a
local Canadian brand but its sold in the USA as Weldwood dry powder marine
glue) Not gap filling on its own but sold in a compound suitable for
plywood lamiating, and needs 70 deg temp and clamping or screwing for 8
hrs to cure. My avoidance of epoxy caused a lot of noise among epoxy
promoters on this newsgroup, which like what kind of plywood to use on a
boat, is a constant source of mixed opinion, mostly because not all boats
are the same and therefore do not have the same materials requirements.


Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

I've used Bulldog brand's PL Premuim, their "strongest" polyurehtane
construction adhesive. Comes in a tube. Squeeze out with a caulking gun
and spread with a putty knife. As you noted these glues stick to the hands
for days. I've used it on two small plywood boats along with screws, then
sealed the seams with small amounts unreinforced polyester or epoxy resin
painted over, for abraision resistence and to keep water away from the PL
Premuim. I don't use it to seal the edges of plywood, preferring
polyester or epxoy for that.


West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

Every couple of years I buy a $5 bubble pack of two small toothpaste tubes
of household epxoy adhesive (tube of resin, tube of hardener, mix in equal
amounts) at the discount store (Elmer brand) for repairs around the house
and boats, also for sealing edges of boat plywood, and for small rust
spots on the car.


MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

Bondo and "conventional fibreglass" are both polyester resin. Polyester
occurs in many places, in fabric (eg Dacron/Tyrelene sail cloth) and as
tire cords. there is even a polyester drapery tape you can buy at fabric
stores which I and a few others have tried instead of fibreglass cloth for
unconventional fibreglass taping. Polyester resin adheres like paint and
plaster, probably better, but, like paint and plaster, is not good at
gluing things together. I sometimes help it adhere by drilling small holes
in the surface. Many boatbuilders will say not to use it on wooden boats.
I use it on my small wooden boats for abraision resistance and for filling
and in one case for taped seam butt joints which are still surprizingly
holding, just like I use it on rust repairs on the car. It requires more
careful surface prepartion than epoxy resin because epoxy will stick to
anything solid except plastic and maybe some other stuff I don't know
about. In small quantities polyester is a lot cheaper than epxoy. In
larger quantities polyester is still cheaper, not as much on a percentage
basis but then with large quatities we are talking large amounts of money
so in abolute terms it is still a lot cheaper. On large boats the
difference as a percentage of the total cost of the boat is not so great.
That is because small boats are mostly hull but big boat hulls are just
containers for a lot of expensive accomodations, electronics, sails,
motors, artwork and other stuff on which silly buggers waste money.

Most of my repair and pathing work is so small its not cost but amount
needed which determines whether I use polyester or epoxy. The least amount
of polyester I mix is 1/2 teaspoon because that uses 1 drop of hardener.
So if I need less than that to seal a spot on a boat I'll mix a drop or
two of epoxy instead of miximg more polyester than I need.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Epoxy is not THAT expensive. It used to be... but in recent years, it has
got cheaper in comparison to other glues.
Collodial is only one of many "thickeners" for epoxy... and probably the
worst for making a "non sag" mix

It will take you as near as dammit the same time to build something whatever
glue you use.
How much money will be SAVED for each project if you use cheaper glue?
Divide that by hours building time..
Last time i worked this out for a specific job.. I could have used flour
and water for glue... and still only save 21 pence an hour.
I value my time and effort sufficiently to spend 21p an hour enabling the
product to last more than 12 months!




"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.
Steve

"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

MarineTex: Another epoxy formulation I think. This stuff I like most
of all because it bridges gaps, holds like hell and does not run.
Very expensive.

Bondo: As reccomended by the Mini-Cup plans. Seems to have little
strength and I wouldnt rely on it as a glue. It does fill gaps really
well (no strength though) without running. It sets VERY fast. Fairly
cheap.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components. It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.

5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291 can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Although 5200 is a great product, and even seals tighter when wet, I do not
believe it sticks very well to UHMW either. And for those interested in
5200, note that 3M also makes a faster curing version (like 1 week instead
of 2). I think it's something like 4200? Can't remember... I only use
5200 for sealing things that won't be coming off again (hopefully).
Officially, it is an adhesive caulk, not an adhesive.

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like
to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is
the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is
required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components.
It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of
all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.

5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291
can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

You are using the wrong filler here. For gap filling use microfibres. And
epoxy is not that expensive. It is only a part of the total buiding cost.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

You're talking about polyester here. Stay away from it for glueing.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and use epoxy. Once you get the hang of it
in using the pumps, stirring it properly and adding the right amount of
filler, you'll never want to use something else.

Meindert

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

But requires a tight fit and high clamping force. Epoxy will do as long as
you sand the oak with grit 60 across the grain to provide enough 'bite' for
the epoxy.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

Yep.

Meindert

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

I can't translate products to USA brands, but I've used epoxy and urethanes-
and I feel urethane has a place in boats. Not saying hulls or wet areas,
but there are plenty of other parts which have moderate strength
requirements, need to be moisture resistant, and are subject to some
movement. Urethane in a cartridge is convenient, gap filling, possibly
dearer than equivalent volume of epoxy, easy to remove the squeeze-out.
Easy clean-up ( except for the brown marks on my hands when I decide I
won't bother to wear the disposable gloves ..... ). For example, my new
engine cover was ply glued up with AV515 urethane. It didn't need the
strength of epoxy, and it was easier to clean up the squeeze-out than epoxy.
It's horses for courses.
David



"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Steve Lusardi" writes:

Everyone on this NG is aware of the typical adhesives, but I would like
to
alert those who may not be familiar with the 3M 5200 product. This is
the
ultimate adhesive and not necessarily just where flexibility is
required.
This stuff is incredibly strong. It is next to impossible to separate a
glued joint with 5200 without destoying one of both of the components.
It
adheres to everything I've tried steel, aluminum, plastic and wood of
all
kinds. It is waterproof and works through huge temperature change unlike
many adhesives. The dissadvantages are cost, shelf life and long curing
time. As a not, do not use as a sealer, it may work sometimes in that
department, but it is primarily an adhesive.

5200 will NOT bond to copper and does not resist diesel.

None of the urethane adhesives will bond to copper and only SikaFlex 291
can
be used for diesel.

The above straight from application engineering for both 3M and Sika.

As far as glues, etc are concerned, consider the following:

Resorcinol is required for white oak.

Epoxy is the glue of choice for everything else.

After that, it's all down hill.

If the cost of epoxy is too big a nut for you to handle, maybe you should
look for another hobby.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:

Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.

could you say where this clamping pressure information comes from? there
is nothing about it in the PL Premium directions. this house construction
mastic form of the adhesive is supposed to work on materials which are
nailed together and for attaching sheets of foam with just a few nails to
hold it in place until the glue cures. I've used it on small glue-ups with
only the weight of a brick to hold the pieces together until it cures.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

William R. Watt wrote:

"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:


Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.


could you say where this clamping pressure information comes from? there
is nothing about it in the PL Premium directions. this house construction
mastic form of the adhesive is supposed to work on materials which are
nailed together and for attaching sheets of foam with just a few nails to
hold it in place until the glue cures. I've used it on small glue-ups with
only the weight of a brick to hold the pieces together until it cures.

Meindert is talking about Gorilla, Probond and the other liquid glues.
They all require high clamping pressure to get the best bond. The
construction adheasive You are talking about has a thixotropic filler
and doesn't need that much pressure.

BTW, how do you keep a partial cartrige alive? You don't need a lot to
make a good joint. When you consider spoilage PU works out a lot more
expensive than epoxy. I buy Gorilla in the smallest bottles just to
keep it fresh.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Meindert Sprang" wrote in message ...
"Parallax" wrote in message
om...
All of this is probably well known to most ppl here but is new to me.
In making my two Mini-Cups, I have experimented with various glues. I
just cannot resist the temptation to do somethign a different way.
So, here is my opinion.

Gorilla Glue: fairly easy to use requiring no mixing. It has less
strength than epoxy and as been stated by others, no ability to bridge
gaps with any holding ability. It really needs a tight fit.

Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.

West Epoxy: Convenient with the little pumps for mixing, holds really
well and bridges gaps. Very expensive and no matter how much of the
colloidal thickener I use, it sags and starts to run before it sets.

You are using the wrong filler here. For gap filling use microfibres. And
epoxy is not that expensive. It is only a part of the total buiding cost.

Conventional Fibreglas resin (the stuff that stinks): Not too bad to
work with, not sure of its abilities as a glue, havent tried it as a
filler, reasonably inexpensive

You're talking about polyester here. Stay away from it for glueing.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and use epoxy. Once you get the hang of it
in using the pumps, stirring it properly and adding the right amount of
filler, you'll never want to use something else.

Meindert


My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Parallax wrote:

SNIP Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Don't forget that the new style of WEST pumps (yellow head) are not the same as the older (white head) WEST pumps.

Throw the old ones away.

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Glenn Ashmore ) writes:

BTW, how do you keep a partial cartrige alive? You don't need a lot to
make a good joint. When you consider spoilage PU works out a lot more
expensive than epoxy. I buy Gorilla in the smallest bottles just to
keep it fresh.

based on information posted in this newsgroup some time ago I wrap in a
plastic bag and freeze it. I've since read in a different newsgoup that
refrigeration(?) works and you don't have to wait for it to thaw. Have not
tested that. I put it in the sun or near a hot air register to thaw an
hour before I want to use it, which requires some planing. a small plug
will solidify in the nozzle. the plug can be extracted with a wood screw.
I've frozen the PL Premium for months.

I also keep "empty" tubes of adhesive and caulking to be cut open and the
dregs dug out with a putty knife or similar for small jobs. There's
actually quite a lot left in there.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:Csqmc.7893$Lm3.270@lakeread04...
Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

I don't use milled fibers. I tried them once but the lamination it
created left the epoxy stiff. For the type of construction I do, stiff
is not necessarily good. Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Backyard Renegade wrote:

I don't use milled fibers. I tried them once but the lamination it
created left the epoxy stiff. For the type of construction I do, stiff
is not necessarily good. Scotty

I don't use it much either (maybe 2 lb in 150 gallons of epoxy. It is
definitely not for laminating but it is good for setting hardware and
high stress joints.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Whoever it was that said "colloidal thickener" fails to make epoxy
nonsagging, and is "very expensive" is dead wrong on both counts. First,
colloidal silica (amorphous silicon dioxide) is the standard filler that you
add to nonthixotropic fillers to make them nonsagging/thixotropic, and it is
nonsagging when used all by itself. Mix it thick and stick it where you
want ...unless it was put on so heavy that you are having high exotherm
problems, it will not sag. As far as price goes, it's middle of the pack.
Consider that wood flour, known as 'cheap', costs 75% as much as the glass
fillers (milled glass fiber, chopped glass strand, and silica). If you want
expensive, go buy straight phenolic microballoons. It costs 150% as much as
silica "colloidal thickener". If you want cheap, go buy plastic minifibers
and accept the trade-offs (which I don't recommend ...there are very few
things I'd recommend plastic fillers for.)

Brian


--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:Csqmc.7893$Lm3.270@lakeread04...


Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
....can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

Brian


--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Glenn Ashmore wrote in message
news:Csqmc.7893$Lm3.270@lakeread04...
Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

I don't use milled fibers. I tried them once but the lamination it
created left the epoxy stiff. For the type of construction I do, stiff
is not necessarily good. Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"Meindert Sprang" ) writes:

Stay away from anything like these PU glues. To make a good bond, you
need a
clamping force you will never be able to apply on a boat. 60-80 psi is
quite
difficult to apply over a long seam.

could you say where this clamping pressure information comes from?

From the side of the bottle. But I'm talking about the liquid stuff here
("PU Construction Glue")

Meindert

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Brian D" wrote in message news:cdGmc.43368$0H1.3993970@attbi_s54...
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

Brian

(puffs up chest) Yeah, I got my fillers all set man, I've built over
50 of these size boats;) For the record, I use aerosil, maple flower,
and pine flower in different mixes depending on what I am doing.
Between the three I get what I need. For backings and wood and gap
filling I use wood, mistakes are recut, not filled, I know this is not
always practical in larger vessels.
Scotty




--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


.
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Glenn Ashmore wrote in message
news:Csqmc.7893$Lm3.270@lakeread04...
Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

I don't use milled fibers. I tried them once but the lamination it
created left the epoxy stiff. For the type of construction I do, stiff
is not necessarily good. Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Brian D" ) writes:
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

I've got good wood four by sifting sawdust through a fine sieve, in small
quantities. The seive I use is for straining tea. GA has noted here before
that ordinary flour sives are too coaurse for getting good wood flour from
sawdust.


--
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Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Backyard Renegade ) writes:

(puffs up chest) Yeah, I got my fillers all set man, I've built over
50 of these size boats;) For the record, I use aerosil, maple flower,
and pine flower in different mixes depending on what I am doing.

as one who is allergic to maple pollen I stay away from the flowers :)

--
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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Wow! That's a big chest!

You filler selection sounds zooper dooper to me, although until just
recently, I didn't realize that maple trees bloomed. When on a walk down by
the river the other day, I noticed that the big-leaf Canadian variety had
blooms on them ...all my life living around maples and I'd never noticed
that before! Maple Flowers! (I bet collecting them up is a bugger tho'
....)

My standard filler selections:

Small boats, a.k.a. low physical stress boats: Maple wood flour plus
about 15% silica for everything except fairing. Fairing uses phenolic
microballoons (plus a little silica), although I want to try the new
QuikFair from System Three ...I hate breathing any more powders than I have
too. Bad enough that I have to breath sanded wood and epoxy ...and yes, I
use a respirator. Nothing's perfect and the shop often contains fine stuff
that you can hardly see in the air. I imagine that it collects in my lungs
....

Larger boats: I use silica/epoxy slurry for laminations, drilling witness
holes to ensure an even squeeze everywhere. For high strength gap filling
adhesive and highest strength fillets (under glass), I use 50/50 milled
glass fiber and silica to thicken the epoxy. For unglassed fillets, I use
straight silica (smooth). For all glassed fillets, I use the aforementioned
85% wood flour/15% silica mix. For fairing, I'm using phenolic
microballoons (plus a little silica).

I haven't experimented with cotton fiber. After hearing lists of complaints
from those using plastic fillers, I don't bother trying it.

Brian

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
m...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:cdGmc.43368$0H1.3993970@attbi_s54...
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask
them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

Brian

(puffs up chest) Yeah, I got my fillers all set man, I've built over
50 of these size boats;) For the record, I use aerosil, maple flower,
and pine flower in different mixes depending on what I am doing.
Between the three I get what I need. For backings and wood and gap
filling I use wood, mistakes are recut, not filled, I know this is not
always practical in larger vessels.
Scotty




--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff
project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


.
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Glenn Ashmore wrote in message
news:Csqmc.7893$Lm3.270@lakeread04...
Parallax wrote:

My epoxy is 10 yr old West System stuff and my metering pumps
broke
yrs ago so my mixing is prob a little off. I am using the
colloidal
silica I used yrs ago for blister repair and it seemed to work
then
but I may not be using the righ amount. Today, I plan to buy
another
gallon of the West epoxy, pumps and fibers.

Milled fiber does not thicken epoxy very well. While it is great
for
strong bonding it will definitely not make epoxy stiff enough to
keep it
from sagging. For fairing and filling I mix in microballoons first
then
slowly add silica to get the right consistancy.

I don't use milled fibers. I tried them once but the lamination it
created left the epoxy stiff. For the type of construction I do, stiff
is not necessarily good. Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
"Brian D" ) writes:
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask
them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

I've got good wood four by sifting sawdust through a fine sieve, in small
quantities. The seive I use is for straining tea. GA has noted here before
that ordinary flour sives are too coaurse for getting good wood flour from
sawdust.

I get my wood flour from the dust bag of my belt sander. Especially from
sanding mahogany, you get the finest wood flour you can imagine.

And to Brain D:
I use cotton fibre from West and it works very good. Basically, it is
cellulosis fibre, to it is technically the same material as wood. It's cheap
and you only need a very small amount to get a nice thick peanutbutter-like
mix.

Meindert

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

Scotty,

Where do you get the pine wood flour? I know RAKA sells Maple ...do they
sell pine too?

Brian

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
(William R. Watt) wrote in message
...
"Brian D" ) writes:
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask
them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

I've got good wood four by sifting sawdust through a fine sieve, in
small
quantities. The seive I use is for straining tea. GA has noted here
before
that ordinary flour sives are too coaurse for getting good wood flour
from
sawdust.

Yeah, but for 10 bucks I get a bucket of beautifully ground powder,
enough for half a season. Remember, many of my boats are clearcoated
for customers so I must match textures and colors too. But even with
my big painted plywood skiffs, I would not go scratching through a
pile of sawdust looking for a tin of powder, it is just to cheap to
buy it. I am not a fanatic, I have grabbed a handfull of sander dust
in a pinch, but I got the color matching down pretty good with the
pine and maple and combinations of the two.
Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

"Brian D" wrote in message news:A3Enc.17068$z06.2909008@attbi_s01...
Scotty,

Where do you get the pine wood flour? I know RAKA sells Maple ...do they
sell pine too?

Yes, Larry sells both. And I find that taking mahogany flour from my
sander makes muck that is too dark to match the rest of the project.
Scotty


Brian

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


.
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
(William R. Watt) wrote in message
...
"Brian D" ) writes:
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats, Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to ask
them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

I've got good wood four by sifting sawdust through a fine sieve, in
small
quantities. The seive I use is for straining tea. GA has noted here
before
that ordinary flour sives are too coaurse for getting good wood flour
from
sawdust.

Yeah, but for 10 bucks I get a bucket of beautifully ground powder,
enough for half a season. Remember, many of my boats are clearcoated
for customers so I must match textures and colors too. But even with
my big painted plywood skiffs, I would not go scratching through a
pile of sawdust looking for a tin of powder, it is just to cheap to
buy it. I am not a fanatic, I have grabbed a handfull of sander dust
in a pinch, but I got the color matching down pretty good with the
pine and maple and combinations of the two.
Scotty

Resins, Fillers and glues
 

I've tried mahogany too ...it sure turns dark when put into epoxy. I found
that the best way to get fillets that match the wood panels perfectly is to
paint them all (yuk yuk.) My boat (see links below) will have a cedar strip
pilot house ceiling with a 1/8" layer of mahogany laminated onto the top for
a little more impact resistance, and wood trim on the dash and bunk seats,
but otherwise will be all paint...

Brian


--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:A3Enc.17068$z06.2909008@attbi_s01...
Scotty,

Where do you get the pine wood flour? I know RAKA sells Maple ...do
they
sell pine too?

Yes, Larry sells both. And I find that taking mahogany flour from my
sander makes muck that is too dark to match the rest of the project.
Scotty


Brian

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff
project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


.
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
(William R. Watt) wrote in message
...
"Brian D" ) writes:
Cotton fibers or wood flour are better for your size of boats,
Scotty
...can't remember the WEST designations for these (and you have to
ask
them
what is in many of their fillers anyway...)

I've got good wood four by sifting sawdust through a fine sieve, in
small
quantities. The seive I use is for straining tea. GA has noted here
before
that ordinary flour sives are too coaurse for getting good wood
flour
from
sawdust.

Yeah, but for 10 bucks I get a bucket of beautifully ground powder,
enough for half a season. Remember, many of my boats are clearcoated
for customers so I must match textures and colors too. But even with
my big painted plywood skiffs, I would not go scratching through a
pile of sawdust looking for a tin of powder, it is just to cheap to
buy it. I am not a fanatic, I have grabbed a handfull of sander dust
in a pinch, but I got the color matching down pretty good with the
pine and maple and combinations of the two.
Scotty