lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

you don't need to loft that boat. you cut out the station moulds and set
them up on a strongback. you lay a strip on at different points to check
for "fairness". when the moulds are fair you start construction. there are
photos of stripper construction on various Internet websites. try a search
for the websites at www.google.com.

sebastian ) writes:
hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...
you don't need to loft that boat. you cut out the station moulds and set
them up on a strongback. you lay a strip on at different points to check

I realize OP and your comment relate to lofting (or not lofting) with
regards to a canoe. I assume this would be from a table of offsets as
developed from line drawings.

This may work for a small craft where correction to the molds can be fairly
simple.

However, I would strongly encourage a prospective builder of a larger boat
to do a full lofting operation. The reason being that the lines and offset
provided in a set of plans are to the outside of the hull and it is not
feasible, using manual methods, to simply deduct the planking thickness due
to the complex curves or angles of the lines. (If the design were done on a
computer, the designer can now perform this operation and provide this for
mold building.)

It is true that the table of offsets might be use in the molds are external
molds and the planking laid inside. I've heard of this method but have never
used it since the fitting of the strip planks would be more difficult, IMHO.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

In my older edition of Canoecraft, what's provided is most of a conventional
table of offsets.
You do need to loft and fair the 'body plan', the sections through the boat
at seven or eight stations. You'll need a 2' x 2' sheet of plywood. Paint
it flat white. I didn't find whether the given offsets are to the outside or
the inside of the planking. I'd ask the author. If to the outside, you'll
need to deduct plank thickness when taking patterns for mold stations.
I wouldn't try to loft/fair the waterlines or buttocks. When fairing the
body plan, be aware of the relation between successive ststions. Rather. i'd
get out and erect the station molds, then using a planking strip or batten,
look for bumps and hollows in the 'setup'. These need to be trimmed or
shimmed.
Any book on lofting will cover this basic stuff. Chapelle's 'Boatbuilding'
is probably easiest to find.

sebastian wrote:

hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Jim Conlin ) writes:
In my older edition of Canoecraft, what's provided is most of a conventional
table of offsets.
You do need to loft and fair the 'body plan', the sections through the boat
at seven or eight stations.

for stripper construction, the strips are so thin and flexibe, that you
need moulds no more than 1 ft apart. on a 16 ft canoe that means about 14
stations plus the stem moulds. since the hull is the same shape at both
ends you only have to draw half the moulds and them make duplicates for
the other end of the boat. you can draw all the half moulds on on sheet of
cardboard and check them against the diagram in the book for accuracy and
fairness before dissecting the cardboard to make plywood moulds. some
peopel have used cardboard moulds. when setting up the moulds on the
strongback the'll have to be checked again for fairness before planking. I
don't think that's called lofting. Lofting means checking all the lines in
the drawings against each other on a lifesize diagram of the boat. you'd
need a 16 ft roll of drawing of paper. they actually used to do that and
pin the drawing up on the wall or draw it on the floor. Its a good way of
cross checking for mistakes.

with so many moulds fairing is more accurate in stripper construction.
setting up is described in chapter 7 (I have the 1983 edition). Moores
does say to make sure the moulds are good and don't just borrow somone's
and use them without checking they're fair (ie will produce a
smooth-flowing hull without any bumps or sags in it).

there is a photo showing the moulds I made of the prospector in the book
on my website. look under Boats, Boat Designs, and 12 Foot Camping
Sailboat (I think that's what I called it). The one photos shows a
progression of moulds I did to model this boat and compare it with the
prospector from Moore's book.

You'll need a 2' x 2' sheet of plywood. Paint
it flat white. I didn't find whether the given offsets are to the outside or
the inside of the planking. I'd ask the author. If to the outside, you'll
need to deduct plank thickness when taking patterns for mold stations.
I wouldn't try to loft/fair the waterlines or buttocks. When fairing the
body plan, be aware of the relation between successive ststions. Rather. i'd
get out and erect the station molds, then using a planking strip or batten,
look for bumps and hollows in the 'setup'. These need to be trimmed or
shimmed.
Any book on lofting will cover this basic stuff. Chapelle's 'Boatbuilding'
is probably easiest to find.

sebastian wrote:

hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

naw, a lofting talbe is something you draw a full size 16 ft diagram of the
boat on. what you have in the book is a table of offsets which you use to
draw life size diagrams of the moulds.


I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe.

right

The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?


just plot the points from the table of offsets. try a scaled down model
first. one inch instead of one foot will give you a 16 inch model. I put
the tables of offsets into a spreadsheet program and played around with
the scaling when I was looking at the canoe shape.

again, there are websites and other books on stripper construction you can
consult. we have a couple other authours besides Moores on stripper
construction in the Ottawa public library.

good luck.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

When I built my prospector full size plans weren't available. I found
the instructions in the book to be pretty clear. Basically you just
plot the points from the lofting table on a large sheet of graph paper
then join the dots using a flexible batten to make a fair curve. Do
that for each station. There's a site and forum witch might interest
you

http://www.bearmountainboats.com/

hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
When I built my prospector full size plans weren't available. I found
the instructions in the book to be pretty clear. Basically you just
plot the points from the lofting table on a large sheet of graph paper
then join the dots using a flexible batten to make a fair curve. Do
that for each station.

Isn't that what is already prepared, with full-scale plans ?

P.C.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

"P.C." wrote in message
. ..

Isn't that what is already prepared, with full-scale plans ?

Fairing lines to a scale on a drafting board or a sheet of plywood, it
"lofting the lines".

Full scale is the only way to do a full loft. Sometimes in a very large
vessel the loft will be to half scale so it will fit on the loft floor. The
main objective is to get the mold station to produce fair lines on the
finished hull. Adjusting the molds, after the fact is not the correct place
to find the errors.

I know that the OP was about a 16ft canoe. However the reason I jump in
about using a full loft is because so often a first time builder will look
for any reason or recommendation to skip the full loft and get started
turning wood into a boat. Unless the designer has taken the results of a
full loft (or the computer equivalent) and done the correction to the table
of offsets, then the offset table should only be trusted for the full loft.


--
My opinion and experience. FWIW

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Hi

"Steve" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Unless the designer has taken the results of a
full loft (or the computer equivalent) and done the correction to the
table
of offsets, then the offset table should only be trusted for the full
loft.


Year , -- but meanwhile the measures must be transfered onto the material,
as the cut materials make up the actural hull. I mean you make the plans to
be able to show the lines not on paper, but on the materials so they can be
shaped into an assembly , ------- then with a heavy frame that must support
a panel , there will be a gab , unless the frames are marked with changing
angle both sides.
--------- Realy the spline for me ,alway's was the spline you place ontop
the rough timbers, before making them follow the planking some 90 pct. Realy
isn't this a bit old fasion, when you can shape the whole framework from
sheet material. Ever tried placing an oak frame in a Baltic trader ? --- if
so you will know there are a need for better technology , did you ever use a
vaccum cleaner to remove a rotten frame ? -------
Anyway first upscaling , then transfering must be less accurate, than
acturly producing the actural frame ,cut directly from the computer
drawings. This also allow for accurancy that make things possible ,that is
more difficult or somtimes impossible with tradisional means. Like forming
whatever assembly framework for whatever shape hull, in only sheet
materials.
P.C.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
When I built my prospector full size plans weren't available. I found
the instructions in the book to be pretty clear. Basically you just
plot the points from the lofting table on a large sheet of graph paper
then join the dots using a flexible batten to make a fair curve. Do
that for each station.

Isn't that what is already prepared, with full-scale plans ?

P.C.


Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

Now where I come from, 5 meter blueprint quality , greyscale print cost
round 10 £ or round 3 $ each meter running roll. -------- Have any of you
guy's ever just seriously checked what the cheapest endless print quality
acturly cost ?

Now I paied these money here in Dk. and ofcaurse I could have paied more if
I didn't ask around to find the cheapest Oce. profesional printworks , and
sure some print shops would rather sell the most expensive quality , but
this is just my experience ,that prices on blueprint black/white on 90 g.
paper is almost cheaper than you pay for the emty paper.
You proberly say that this is aswell to learn the art of lofting , but realy
you learn that just as well ,and add a lot of accurancy that in the end will
eliminiate a lot of foults, by typing in the cooerdinates in the table of
offsets into a simple CAD program.
What I mean is, that you can also se it that way that you realy get to know
the computer in front your face , by using it for storing the work , that
othervies soon get lost on a piece of paper ------- guess you know that
paper expand and schrink in air...........
So my point is, that to save money, to get a knowleage and skills about your
computer , to ensure that what you design is what you end up building , and
to make sure you have an original lofting , the computer is acturly better,
than the methods used for the past centuries.
I know the computer have a hard time getting accepted in these terms, realy
it is not enough for somone to go out and prove his words , even he made 20
boats from these new methods, and even his clients is in front of a computer
screen.
Now a few in this fora maby wonder why this Cyber-Boat guy don't offer these
services, but a few years ago what happened was, that I made agreament with
a printshop that would deliver for those cheap prices, and some guy wanted
to buy the whole lot of Cyber-Boat plans -------- ordered maby 500 meter
full-scale drawings and had them posted to england. This guy never payed
and even the arangement was clear as I did not earn on this , then this
action made sure that firm would not deal with me.
Still I do understand that if somone don't want new methods and smart new
way's to build . I mean you can be glad that you are not a skilled
autodidact who perform both beautifull boats and exiting architecture, as
then you would know the taste when somone say , who do you think you are ,do
you think you are more clever than us, ------- Now many amature designers
proberly have your cosy job and nice house and the amature drawings proberly
are a nice time killer, -------- but for the once that acturly develob new
methods and need the bread for his family, there are nothing as harmfull, as
somone that say "I can do that to" , or if he can not start a dirt campain
proving their true skills.

We been here before havn't we ? ------- still this time I can announce that
Cyber-Boat old site don't exist anymore. The original old homepage is
deleted and what's left of Cyber-Boat is this ;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

So this is about saving money ?

P.C.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

A word of caution: Be careful about using someone elses boat as a
template or getting offsets from someone elses plans. Generally, plans
are sold to the buyer with the agreement to make one boat and not share
the plans or info in them with anyone else.



P.C. wrote:
Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:


Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

The good thing about a full size lofting is that when you are done, you
can easily "lift" patterns for each part directly from the lofting.
Also, lofting allows the builder to correct the designer's mistakes
before cutting wood. Happens all the time.
Plus, the lofting gives the builder a better concept for how the boat
"feels". Much better than a little drawing can or even a cad drafted
drawing. Unfortunatlely people unaccustomed to creating large drawings
seem to shy away from it.
If I was building a little canoe though, a minor mistake in the lofting
is not a big deal. I'd draw horizontal water lines, then plot the
section molds directly from the table of offsets. Then I'd draw the
sections out and tranfer the lines to the material (particle board) to
cut. Success in doing this will depend on whether the table of offsets
is lofted to the inside of the planking or to the outside as is
sometimes the case. Also, different designers work to different
tolerances and some tables of offsets are not very accurate or contain
too few sections to have the plotted section lines come out fair when
set up.
I've built boats from different designers and the accuracy of the
original design goes a long way toward getting a boat that resembles
what the designer had in mind.
Assuming your table of offsets are drawn to the inside of the planking,
here is what I'd do.

1. draw a horizontal line the width of the boat representing the
baseline in the lofting.
2. Erect a perpendicular line that intersects the baseline representing
the center of the boat.
3. Draw the waterlines relative to and parallel to the baseline.
4. Plot points along the waterlines based on the table of offsets.For
instance, if the sheer in the plan view for the center section at water
line 8", is 1-6-0, put a dot on the appropriate waterline one foot six
inches from the center line.
5. draw a line through each point to establish the cut line for the
section. Use a flexible batten and finish nails to hold it the batten in
place so the line goes through each point. A 1/8 x 1/2 inch thick piece
of plexiglas 36 inches long makes a good batten.
5. Continue plotting each section but do only one half of each. Either
the right or the left. Usually the foward sections are on the left and
the aft sections are on the right.
6. Do each section and figure out how you will set up the sections on
the strong back so you can also mark the bottom of the section mold
where it connects to the strong back. Various methods are used.
7. You now have a full size pattern of each section of the canoe and can
transfer the lines to particle board and cut them out.
Extreme accuracy will help in producing a fair hull as will placing the
section molds exactly where they need to be on the strongback.

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.



sebastian wrote:
hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Hi

"steveJ" skrev i en meddelelse
...

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.


Well , ----- I could not resist that one , you se with most CAD programs
there are an offset function. This produce exactly paralell lines with the
exact distance -- or as you ask ,the exact plank thickness on outside the
section lines . Point out the section line and type in the offset distance
and what side of the original line ,and it's there.
P.C.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:03:32 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

Now where I come from, 5 meter blueprint quality , greyscale print cost
round 10 £ or round 3 $ each meter running roll. -------- Have any of you
guy's ever just seriously checked what the cheapest endless print quality
acturly cost ?

Now I paied these money here in Dk. and ofcaurse I could have paied more if
I didn't ask around to find the cheapest Oce. profesional printworks , and
sure some print shops would rather sell the most expensive quality , but
this is just my experience ,that prices on blueprint black/white on 90 g.
paper is almost cheaper than you pay for the emty paper.
You proberly say that this is aswell to learn the art of lofting , but realy
you learn that just as well ,and add a lot of accurancy that in the end will
eliminiate a lot of foults, by typing in the cooerdinates in the table of
offsets into a simple CAD program.
What I mean is, that you can also se it that way that you realy get to know
the computer in front your face , by using it for storing the work , that
othervies soon get lost on a piece of paper ------- guess you know that
paper expand and schrink in air...........
So my point is, that to save money, to get a knowleage and skills about your
computer , to ensure that what you design is what you end up building , and
to make sure you have an original lofting , the computer is acturly better,
than the methods used for the past centuries.
I know the computer have a hard time getting accepted in these terms, realy
it is not enough for somone to go out and prove his words , even he made 20
boats from these new methods, and even his clients is in front of a computer
screen.
Now a few in this fora maby wonder why this Cyber-Boat guy don't offer these
services, but a few years ago what happened was, that I made agreament with
a printshop that would deliver for those cheap prices, and some guy wanted
to buy the whole lot of Cyber-Boat plans -------- ordered maby 500 meter
full-scale drawings and had them posted to england. This guy never payed
and even the arangement was clear as I did not earn on this , then this
action made sure that firm would not deal with me.
Still I do understand that if somone don't want new methods and smart new
way's to build . I mean you can be glad that you are not a skilled
autodidact who perform both beautifull boats and exiting architecture, as
then you would know the taste when somone say , who do you think you are ,do
you think you are more clever than us, ------- Now many amature designers
proberly have your cosy job and nice house and the amature drawings proberly
are a nice time killer, -------- but for the once that acturly develob new
methods and need the bread for his family, there are nothing as harmfull, as
somone that say "I can do that to" , or if he can not start a dirt campain
proving their true skills.

We been here before havn't we ? ------- still this time I can announce that
Cyber-Boat old site don't exist anymore. The original old homepage is
deleted and what's left of Cyber-Boat is this ;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

So this is about saving money ?

P.C.


Well maybe it's about saving money or maybe the OP just wants to learn
how to loft. All the stations can be drawn on one sheet of paper less
than a metre square so I don't think that's going to add much to the
cost

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:49:52 GMT, Matt Langenfeld
wrote:

A word of caution: Be careful about using someone elses boat as a
template or getting offsets from someone elses plans. Generally, plans
are sold to the buyer with the agreement to make one boat and not share
the plans or info in them with anyone else.

Generally that is true but the OP paid for the offset table when he
bought the canoecraft book. The book includes offsets for a bunch of
different canoes most of them were not designed by the author but are
from lines taken off other boats. The Chestnut Prospector has to be
one of the most copied boats ever

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Drew Dalgleish ) writes:

Generally that is true but the OP paid for the offset table when he
bought the canoecraft book. The book includes offsets for a bunch of
different canoes most of them were not designed by the author but are
from lines taken off other boats. The Chestnut Prospector has to be
one of the most copied boats ever

The prospectopr offsets in Moore's book were taken by Bill Mason off
his Chestnut Prospector, presumably before it had been all banged out
of shape. He is probably the only film maker who would use a beat up old
canvas canoe in a canoe instruction film. Truth in film making. Reality
film. :)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

lofting canoe tables in to plans
 

Very true, but to purchase a cad program and plotter might be a little
too much expense to build a little canoe.

P.C. wrote:
Hi

"steveJ" skrev i en meddelelse
...

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.



Well , ----- I could not resist that one , you se with most CAD programs
there are an offset function. This produce exactly paralell lines with the
exact distance -- or as you ask ,the exact plank thickness on outside the
section lines . Point out the section line and type in the offset distance
and what side of the original line ,and it's there.
P.C.

With all due respect, I'm not sure the OP is getting his question answered. I'm in the same "boat"...I have Moore's book, and I'm trying to figure out how to create the full-sized templates used to trace out the forms to build any one of his canoes or kayaks. (The Hiawatha is the canoe I want to build.)

Moore presents two tables, a table of heights and a table of half-breadths, with columns for each station and rows labeled "sheer" and "butt 2"", "butt 4"", etc., in the table of heights, and rows labeled "sheer" and "WL 2"", "WL 4"", etc. in the table of half-breadths.

To an experienced builder it's probably obvious what these terms mean and the process of transferring this data to a full-size grid sheet is probably straightforward. To me (and presumably to the OP) these tables are a little mystifying. I am guessing it would probably be simpler to just buy the $85 plans a skip this step...but if anyone can offer a step-by-step method for transferring the data supplied in the tables, to a sheet of paper using pins and a batten, it would be greatly appreciated! It would be helpful if the explanation defined the terms butt, profile, sheer, WL, and baseline as depicted in the drawings.

The problem I have with Morre's offsets is that he copied many of his offsets off of existing craft that he neither drew or produced. Only about half of the offsets were copyrighted in the original books, The earlier versions of his book explained this very clearly and even showed you at length how to accomplish this. Then, in later versions of his book these sections were left out and several drawings were redrawn and copyrighted as his own designs.