removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug. Before I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Sounds like you have a dangerous situation.

Your bilge blower should be set up to ventilate all the bilge areas. If not
then the vent system wasn't installed properly.

I would recommend that you not only wash it down good but you should rig
some gasoline safe ventilation to run until it is safe. If there is going to
be any welding or spark producing work done to get to the tank (defuel the
tank), you should have it tested as 'safe for hot work' by a qualified
person. If it is in a commercial yard they my require this as well.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Or maybe the problem is the filler tube (maybe torn) or it's connection to
the tank (loose clamp)? And might I suggest you remove ALL the fuel from the
boat (tank, bilge) before doing any work ... I assume by work you mean
cutting open the deck ... and let it air out for a coupla days before doing
any work.

habbi wrote in message
...
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me
to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug. Before
I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

The aluminum tank has aluminum pipes welded to it which go toward the side
of the hull and then 90 up 1' above the deck.(welded through deck.) Then the
rubber filler, vent and feed start. I plugged the filler and vent and then
pressurized the feed with 5psi. The air is hissing out of the tank but I
can't see where. Bottom line is the deck has to be cut open but I want the
vapours gone before attempting this. I have heard of people rinsing out
metal gas tanks from cars with water and then trying to weld them and they
still blew up. I guess what I am essentially dealing with is a very very
large empty gasoline tank which has a smaller 100 gallon gasoline tank
inside it.
What should expect from the builder which is in a different province and had
the boat shipped here. Should this type of problem be their responsibility
or mine? Again the boat is 1 year old.

"Bowgus" wrote in message
.cable.rogers.com...
Or maybe the problem is the filler tube (maybe torn) or it's connection to
the tank (loose clamp)? And might I suggest you remove ALL the fuel from
the
boat (tank, bilge) before doing any work ... I assume by work you mean
cutting open the deck ... and let it air out for a coupla days before
doing
any work.

habbi wrote in message
...
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must
be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug
from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me
to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank
is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug.
Before
I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove
all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

washing and letting it vent will probably not work.

BE SURE TO INFORM SERVICE PERSONAL OF THE FORMER PRESENCE OF GASOLINE.
Otherwise you may face a costly lawsuit for wrongful death.

Only way to weld it is to leave it filled with water which will displace any
air needed to create an explosion.

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Best practice for DIY tank repair in 4x4ing is to flush the tank
several times then do any welding with the tank full of water, as in
right to the top of the filler and vent, zero air inside, period. Then
weld.

Yes, I have done this to my Toyota 4x4 while on a trail.

Insert disclaimer here...

Gas is explosive in confined areas and the water will displace the
oxygen preventing an explosion. If you can do likewise with the bilge,
flushing and filling, you should be relatively safe. I would also use
a reciprocating saw or some form of blade cutting that is less likely
to cause sparks as opposed to a die grinder or torch.

As for responsibility, you purchased a working vessel, fit and ready
for service. The onus is on the supplier to stand behind workmanship;
unless the boat was in some form of distress at some point I can see
no reason for a fuel leak, ergo workmanship.


On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:41:08 GMT, "habbi"
wrote:

The aluminum tank has aluminum pipes welded to it which go toward the side
of the hull and then 90 up 1' above the deck.(welded through deck.) Then the
rubber filler, vent and feed start. I plugged the filler and vent and then
pressurized the feed with 5psi. The air is hissing out of the tank but I
can't see where. Bottom line is the deck has to be cut open but I want the
vapours gone before attempting this. I have heard of people rinsing out
metal gas tanks from cars with water and then trying to weld them and they
still blew up. I guess what I am essentially dealing with is a very very
large empty gasoline tank which has a smaller 100 gallon gasoline tank
inside it.
What should expect from the builder which is in a different province and had
the boat shipped here. Should this type of problem be their responsibility
or mine? Again the boat is 1 year old.

"Bowgus" wrote in message
t.cable.rogers.com...
Or maybe the problem is the filler tube (maybe torn) or it's connection to
the tank (loose clamp)? And might I suggest you remove ALL the fuel from
the
boat (tank, bilge) before doing any work ... I assume by work you mean
cutting open the deck ... and let it air out for a coupla days before
doing
any work.

habbi wrote in message
...
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must
be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug
from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me
to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank
is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug.
Before
I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove
all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

The gas tank, to do it properly, needs to be emptied, cleaned by several
rinses and then inerted with gas while it is being welded. Your welder will
have a procedure for this.. His inerting gas must be what ever is suitable
for aluminum welding (mig or tig).

Cleaning and gas freeing the tank is a small problem. It would be the gas
freeing of the bilges that concerns me since it sounds like you have to do
some cutting to get into them and the tank.

You ask about builders responsibility.. I would say yes, but you would have
a hard time getting him to do anything if you can't take it to his
facility... He's not going to want to pay for the gas free and welders
services in someone elses boat yard..

In the typical US boat yard, your talking about several thousand even if
everything were simple.. It cost money to have a job like this done
correctly and safely..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Find a shop that does aluminum boat and fuel tank repair and leave it up to
them. rec.boats.building is fine for discussion, but I'd seriously consider
a more prudent approach to your tank repair problem.

As far as who's responsible, it comes down to warranty. If you have it then
fine, but it sounds like you don't, else you'd know, right? As far as law
goes, well ...it's a reasonable expectation that the tank does not leak,
assuming the boat was new. Have your attorney write a letter...

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


"Steve" wrote in message
...
The gas tank, to do it properly, needs to be emptied, cleaned by several
rinses and then inerted with gas while it is being welded. Your welder
will
have a procedure for this.. His inerting gas must be what ever is suitable
for aluminum welding (mig or tig).

Cleaning and gas freeing the tank is a small problem. It would be the gas
freeing of the bilges that concerns me since it sounds like you have to do
some cutting to get into them and the tank.

You ask about builders responsibility.. I would say yes, but you would
have
a hard time getting him to do anything if you can't take it to his
facility... He's not going to want to pay for the gas free and welders
services in someone elses boat yard..

In the typical US boat yard, your talking about several thousand even if
everything were simple.. It cost money to have a job like this done
correctly and safely..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Funny, but warranties only serve to limit liability. You have the best
warranty when there isn't one in writing. Fitness for use is a robust
concept. I'd say the builder is liable and should fix the thing. Getting
them to do it may take some legal action though. Try giving them a call and
see what happens.

--


Keith
__
Don't let your mind wander -- it's too little to be let out alone.
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:VDJcc.86505$JO3.44526@attbi_s04...
Find a shop that does aluminum boat and fuel tank repair and leave it up
to
them. rec.boats.building is fine for discussion, but I'd seriously
consider
a more prudent approach to your tank repair problem.

As far as who's responsible, it comes down to warranty. If you have it
then
fine, but it sounds like you don't, else you'd know, right? As far as law
goes, well ...it's a reasonable expectation that the tank does not leak,
assuming the boat was new. Have your attorney write a letter...

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff
project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


"Steve" wrote in message
...
The gas tank, to do it properly, needs to be emptied, cleaned by several
rinses and then inerted with gas while it is being welded. Your welder
will
have a procedure for this.. His inerting gas must be what ever is
suitable
for aluminum welding (mig or tig).

Cleaning and gas freeing the tank is a small problem. It would be the
gas
freeing of the bilges that concerns me since it sounds like you have to
do
some cutting to get into them and the tank.

You ask about builders responsibility.. I would say yes, but you would
have
a hard time getting him to do anything if you can't take it to his
facility... He's not going to want to pay for the gas free and welders
services in someone elses boat yard..

In the typical US boat yard, your talking about several thousand even if
everything were simple.. It cost money to have a job like this done
correctly and safely..

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Some thoughts.
Check with the builder before you do anything. Unless you bought a
one-off, there may be a generic problem and a generic solution. You
won't know unless you ask.
It's human nature to assume the worst, but a lot of leaks are simple
things we've overlooked. Are you sure there's no other mechanical
fitting that could have become loose--cleanout, drain plug, sensor or gauge?
No matter how well you sanitize the bilge and tank, keep ventilation
running at least an hour before you cut or flood with CO2. 5 or 10#s of
dry ice between the bilge and tank ought to do it.
You can rent an explosive atmosphere tester at a tool rental store.
If you have to cut through the deck to get to the tank, consider adding
a permanent access. Lightening never strikes twice in the same
spot...or does it? Same goes for the tank. If practicable, leave a
manhole in the top of the tank under the accessway. A low flanged
collar with thick fuel-friendly gasket and bolt-on cover is the way to
go. With the collar flange up, nuts and bolts are always on the outside
of the tank. Don't goof around with saddle patches and self-tapping
screws, you'll just have to come back next year and do it right.
And most important, if you don't have the expertise and equipment for
welding aluminum, have a qualified shop do the work, you'll save money
in the end. Good luck.

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Most welders will not weld any tank that has ever held gasoline. Could be a
big clue here!
"terry" wrote in message
...
washing and letting it vent will probably not work.

BE SURE TO INFORM SERVICE PERSONAL OF THE FORMER PRESENCE OF GASOLINE.
Otherwise you may face a costly lawsuit for wrongful death.

Only way to weld it is to leave it filled with water which will displace
any
air needed to create an explosion.

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

It just takes care. If you can, you wash out the tank. Regardless, you
purge it with air for many hours to guarantee it is dry. You fill the tank
with inert gas such as argon, then weld. Same process if you weld tanks of
unknown condition or which had unknown contents. Welders do it all the
time.

Brian


--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products



"Dave W" wrote in message
...
Most welders will not weld any tank that has ever held gasoline. Could be
a
big clue here!
"terry" wrote in message
...
washing and letting it vent will probably not work.

BE SURE TO INFORM SERVICE PERSONAL OF THE FORMER PRESENCE OF GASOLINE.
Otherwise you may face a costly lawsuit for wrongful death.

Only way to weld it is to leave it filled with water which will displace
any
air needed to create an explosion.

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Qmfc.39212$wP1.153766@attbi_s54...
It just takes care. If you can, you wash out the tank. Regardless, you
purge it with air for many hours to guarantee it is dry. You fill the
tank
with inert gas such as argon, then weld. Same process if you weld tanks
of
unknown condition or which had unknown contents. Welders do it all the
time.

Once the tank is inerted, I would still be concerned about the residual gas
fumes in the bilges. An area where you can properly perge or inert.

If it doubt, or you can't test it before welding, then the tank should be
removed from the boat.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Steve wrote:
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Qmfc.39212$wP1.153766@attbi_s54...

It just takes care. If you can, you wash out the tank. Regardless, you
purge it with air for many hours to guarantee it is dry. You fill the

tank

with inert gas such as argon, then weld. Same process if you weld tanks

of

unknown condition or which had unknown contents. Welders do it all the
time.


Once the tank is inerted, I would still be concerned about the residual gas
fumes in the bilges. An area where you can properly perge or inert.

If it doubt, or you can't test it before welding, then the tank should be
removed from the boat.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions


why not inert those areas as well?

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message
...

why not inert those areas as well?

The problem would be to effeciently purge and then keep the inert gas in the
area. Most all effective inert gases are lighter than air and would be lost
as fast as you could pump it in.

Steve

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

You're right. I was assuming the tank is out of the boat and in a shop.

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"Steve" wrote in message
...

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Qmfc.39212$wP1.153766@attbi_s54...
It just takes care. If you can, you wash out the tank. Regardless, you
purge it with air for many hours to guarantee it is dry. You fill the
tank
with inert gas such as argon, then weld. Same process if you weld tanks
of
unknown condition or which had unknown contents. Welders do it all the
time.

Once the tank is inerted, I would still be concerned about the residual
gas
fumes in the bilges. An area where you can properly perge or inert.

If it doubt, or you can't test it before welding, then the tank should be
removed from the boat.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

The inert gas can blow away and if fuel is still sitting around, then it's
still creating fumes and can ignite itself too. Unless it can't be done,
I'd take the tank out and put it in a shop to weld. But where there's a
will, there's a way. Once the tank is empty and purging, the boat can be
purged also. We used to purge aircraft tanks for up to a week before
working on them, and even then we'd enter the tank with a fumes tester that
checked the air to see if there was jet fuel or gas fumes floating around.

Brian


--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/catalog -- Discounted System Three
Resins products


..
"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message
...
Steve wrote:
"Brian D" wrote in message
news:9Qmfc.39212$wP1.153766@attbi_s54...

It just takes care. If you can, you wash out the tank. Regardless, you
purge it with air for many hours to guarantee it is dry. You fill the

tank

with inert gas such as argon, then weld. Same process if you weld tanks

of

unknown condition or which had unknown contents. Welders do it all the
time.


Once the tank is inerted, I would still be concerned about the residual
gas
fumes in the bilges. An area where you can properly perge or inert.

If it doubt, or you can't test it before welding, then the tank should
be
removed from the boat.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions


why not inert those areas as well?

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Steve wrote:
"dazed and confuzed" wrote in message
...

why not inert those areas as well?


The problem would be to effeciently purge and then keep the inert gas in the
area. Most all effective inert gases are lighter than air and would be lost
as fast as you could pump it in.

Steve


co2 is heavier than air, Argon or nitrogen are cheap. Just let it flood
the area while you are working....For the time needed to do the cutting
or welding, the losses are negligible.

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:54:49 -0500, dazed and confuzed
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email


...and from this we should take advice on welding petrol-laden areas?
G.

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Old Nick wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:54:49 -0500, dazed and confuzed
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email


..and from this we should take advice on welding petrol-laden areas?
G.


--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..


************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
........no I'm not.
;-)

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:54:49 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote:

co2 is heavier than air, Argon or nitrogen are cheap. Just let it flood
the area while you are working....For the time needed to do the cutting
or welding, the losses are negligible.

I'm sure this doesn't really need to be told to careful, experienced
people, but be real careful if you are flooding bilges with something
like nitrogen. Industrial workers have died of lack of oxygen by
entering a tank that contained nitrogen from a purging operation
rather than air.

- RIck
--
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Rick Tyler wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:54:49 -0500, dazed and confuzed
wrote:


co2 is heavier than air, Argon or nitrogen are cheap. Just let it flood
the area while you are working....For the time needed to do the cutting
or welding, the losses are negligible.


I'm sure this doesn't really need to be told to careful, experienced
people, but be real careful if you are flooding bilges with something
like nitrogen. Industrial workers have died of lack of oxygen by
entering a tank that contained nitrogen from a purging operation
rather than air.

- RIck
--
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian
good point. I assumed that it was obvious

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

sorry to reply so late but, do you not have a vent for the bilge? run
it for a while and then if yon are still worried get some canned
nitrogen and flood the bilge with the N2.

Rick

habbi wrote:
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug. Before I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

We ended up steaming the bilge through several holes I drilled in the deck
and then had a "sniffer" check to make sure it was safe. We then cut out a
5' X 5' section of the deck and pressurized the tank to 3 psi and no bubbles
anywhere then up to 6 psi and bubbles started forming at the sending unit
only. Oh did I feel like an idiot, the tank and all connections were
perfectly air tight. I still can't understand how 2 gallon of gasoline came
out through the tiny leak at the sending unit. But then again every night we
topped of the tank and the head pressure from the fuel in the fill pipe must
have been enough that over 1 full year 2 gallons came out. We welded the
deck back down and I wasted $500.00. I guess it wasn't a complete waste
since we got all gasoline and vapour out of the bilge. Thanks to all.
"Rick" wrote in message
...
sorry to reply so late but, do you not have a vent for the bilge? run
it for a while and then if yon are still worried get some canned
nitrogen and flood the bilge with the N2.

Rick

habbi wrote:
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must
be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug
from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me
to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank
is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug.
Before I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove
all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

habbi says:

Oh did I feel like an idiot,

and few others here will admit to that, ever. Akthough we all are at some
point (someone back me up here - I'd hate to think it was just habbi and
myself)

We welded the
deck back down and I wasted $500.00

No, you spent $500 to ensure that you wouldn't blow up and/or burn up. Sounds
like a good deal to me. ;-)

Steve

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

habbi wrote:

We ended up steaming the bilge through several holes I drilled in the deck
and then had a "sniffer" check to make sure it was safe. We then cut out a
5' X 5' section of the deck and pressurized the tank to 3 psi and no bubbles
anywhere then up to 6 psi and bubbles started forming at the sending unit
only. Oh did I feel like an idiot, the tank and all connections were
perfectly air tight. I still can't understand how 2 gallon of gasoline came
out through the tiny leak at the sending unit. But then again every night we
topped of the tank and the head pressure from the fuel in the fill pipe must
have been enough that over 1 full year 2 gallons came out. We welded the
deck back down and I wasted $500.00. I guess it wasn't a complete waste
since we got all gasoline and vapour out of the bilge. Thanks to all.


You were careful. That is not being an idiot

and you are only an idiot if you fail to learn from your mistakes.

--
A significant part of courage is realizing that only you need to know
how terrified you are..

removing gasoline and fumes from bilge
 

Guys,
Let's all go backto the original problem.......the boat is 1 year old. What
about the warranty?



"habbi" wrote in message
...
I have a 31 aluminum work boat with an under deck fuel tank which must be
leaking. The aluminum deck is welded in place. The tank is a 100 gallon
aluminum tank. The boat is only 1 year old. I removed the drain plug from
the back of the boat and about 2 gaollons of gas came out, this leads me
to
believe that the crack must be on the top of the tank because the tank is
almost full and this is the only time I ever opened the drain plug. Before
I
do any work I want to make sure I don't have an explosion. If I fill the
bilge area with dishsoap and water and then drain it will this remove all
dangerous vapours? Any other ideas?