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I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful that
others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount prices.
thanks

"MarshallE" wrote in
m:

I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful
that others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount
prices. thanks

There's only one brand.....Sospenders

Just buy it. Get the self-inflating one in case you hit your head as you
go overboard and aren't concious to pull the lanyard to inflate. The
automatic one inflates as soon as you hit the water. I tried it myself on
ours when the CO2 carts ran out-of-date. Damned thing just went
boom!...and there I was bouncing around inflated.....

Your life's worth the money, easy....

Also has a great harness rig to go with it. Get it, too. Don't go out of
the cabin in rough weather or at night without it....ATTACHED..

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:52:06 -0500, in message

Larry wrote:

"MarshallE" wrote in
om:

I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful
that others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount
prices. thanks

There's only one brand.....Sospenders

Mustang?

Ryk

Comments below:

"Ryk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:52:06 -0500, in message

Larry wrote:

"MarshallE" wrote in
. com:

I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful
that others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount
prices. thanks

There's only one brand.....Sospenders

Mustang?

Ryk

Back in October of 2004 Practical Sailor (Vol.39 # 19) tested a group of
PFD's, including Sospenders (and it's West Marine twin), Stearns, Crewsaver
& Mustang. In their conclusions they prefered the UK based Crewsaver for
"its excelent comfort and fit" but recommended the Mustang models if you
needed a USCG-approved vest. Mustang has redesigned their models to improve
comfort and operation since this test and are still USCG-approved. In face
the USCG uses Mustang PFD's themselves. I have an older Mustang and use it
all the time. I find it very comfortable, in fact I usually forget I have
it on.
--
Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin
Cape Breton Island, Canada
kenheaton at eastlink dot ca

Ryk wrote in
:

Mustang?

Ryk

Them, too. I have one of their survival suits, though I doubt there is
time to put it on in most emergencies that happen so fast.

Ryk wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:52:06 -0500, in message

Larry wrote:

"MarshallE" wrote in
. com:

I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful
that others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount
prices. thanks

There's only one brand.....Sospenders

Mustang?

Ryk

that's the ticket...
http://tinyurl.com/9vmxy

In article 2jZIf.3299$_62.2570@edtnps90,
"Ken Heaton" wrote:

Comments below:

"Ryk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:52:06 -0500, in message

Larry wrote:

"MarshallE" wrote in
. com:

I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful
that others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount
prices. thanks

There's only one brand.....Sospenders

Mustang?

Ryk

Back in October of 2004 Practical Sailor (Vol.39 # 19) tested a group of
PFD's, including Sospenders (and it's West Marine twin), Stearns, Crewsaver
& Mustang. In their conclusions they prefered the UK based Crewsaver for
"its excelent comfort and fit" but recommended the Mustang models if you
needed a USCG-approved vest. Mustang has redesigned their models to improve
comfort and operation since this test and are still USCG-approved. In face
the USCG uses Mustang PFD's themselves. I have an older Mustang and use it
all the time. I find it very comfortable, in fact I usually forget I have
it on.

All great comments. Mine is a minor consideration but one that for some
turn into a major one. Try on as many of the recommended brands and
styles that you can. Fit might matter.

I have a shorter torso for a man over 6 feet tall. The life jacket I got
was made in both short and long models. I know I would not have worn
the long one, too uncomfortable, but I almost always wear the one i
bought. These things only work if they are on so make sure you buy one
you will wear.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

PFD

another naive question on my part, i'm sure ... but does anyone else
feel a little weird trusting your life to a floating thing that has to
have air in it to keep floating ? i know they are comfortable and all,
the inflatables, because they don't inflate until you need them to
inflate. but if you were going over the side in an emergency out in
the middle of the ocean, and you could be in the water for who knows
what amount of time, would you worry about being out there with an
inflatable vest ? i imagine they have kevlar and other protections on
them to keep them from being snagged or punctured and losing their air,
but it still makes me feel sort of odd knowing that if it were cut or
punctured that it probably wouldn't keep me floating. or is it nothing
to worry about ? like maybe the inflatable vests have air compartments
so that if one is punctured the other 9 keep floating, or something
like that ?

as low tech as a foam filled vest is there's something about it i find
reassuring, that something being that if it gets punctured it won't
sink. maybe keep foam filled vests near the ditch bag and put them on
if you have time before you go over the side, keeping the inflatable on
most times in case you accidentally fall overboard ?

purple_stars wrote:
PFD

another naive question on my part, i'm sure ... but does anyone else
feel a little weird trusting your life to a floating thing that has to
have air in it to keep floating ? i know they are comfortable and all,
the inflatables, because they don't inflate until you need them to
inflate. but if you were going over the side in an emergency out in
the middle of the ocean, and you could be in the water for who knows
what amount of time, would you worry about being out there with an
inflatable vest ? i imagine they have kevlar and other protections on
them to keep them from being snagged or punctured and losing their air,
but it still makes me feel sort of odd knowing that if it were cut or
punctured that it probably wouldn't keep me floating. or is it nothing
to worry about ? like maybe the inflatable vests have air compartments
so that if one is punctured the other 9 keep floating, or something
like that ?

as low tech as a foam filled vest is there's something about it i find
reassuring, that something being that if it gets punctured it won't
sink. maybe keep foam filled vests near the ditch bag and put them on
if you have time before you go over the side, keeping the inflatable on
most times in case you accidentally fall overboard ?

Yup! my take is that the inflatable models are great for sailors who
might not wear a PFD for various reasons... such as uncomfortable,
confining...not macho looking.
My brother-in-law almost bought the farm falling overboard while
climbing into the dinght from his houseboat. After that scare I
convinced my sister to buy the inflatable version and he does wear it.
This is what I wear... http://tinyurl.com/cupvt
and if I bought another one.. http://tinyurl.com/drsut

Ryk wrote:

I'd pick the foam vest if I knew I was going in the water. If nothing
else, mine would provide somewhat better insulation against
hypothermia, which is exactly the thing that keeps me from wearing it
when sailing around on a nice warm day. My Mustang inflatable with
harness is quite comfortable even on hot days, although I had to
relocate the approval labels to make it comfortable to wear over just
skin.

Ryk

Has anyone asked what water temprature will the boat be sailing?
When it is 90 degrees and the water is 83 degrees I use long sleved
shirt with Sospenders.

When in the PNW with water temp 52 degrees I use a Type V worksuit.
Full on flotation AND keeps the silent killer at a distance until
rescue is complete. The USCG use them. Lots of trawl deck guys in the
Bering use them. I use one. Had a Mustang Suit for a while then got a
Stearns..$280 - $320 bucks.
Cold water....................? Stay warm and float. Oh. make a harnes.
Besides everyone will think you are a Coastie on patrol.
BOb

PFD - please read

My personal opinion and treatise on PFDs

If you are even considering (and you should) the purchase of an
inflating PFD, please read completely and understand this. You don’t
have to agree, but you probably will.

Find somewhere that you can go to try on numerous suppliers products.
There are at least three suppliers in North America: Sospenders, Mustang
and Crewfit.
I personally believe that only the auto-inflate (AIPFD) are worth
considering at all.
Try them all on. Do not even look at the price tag. Do NOT buy a PFD
on price
If a PFD is not Comfortable, you may be tempted to not make the point to
wear it always.
When you find the one that is comfortable to you - Buy It (and a re-arm
kit).
If you are a sailor, buy the version with the harness.
Get the both the included and replacement cylinders weighed as soon as
practical and write the actual weight and date on it with a waterproof
marker.

It has been my experience over very many years that PFDs are not worn
for two reasons.
1. They impede movement.
2. They are uncomfortable or cause discomfort.

This is the thing that the AIPFD specifically avoids. BUT, it is still
of no value if it is not on the body that hits the water.

Have the re-arm kit in a double zip lock bag stored in your sea bag.
Again, if it should deploy when not needed, you need to be able to
recover it during the passage.

My wife and I have been wearing AIPFDs since long before the USCG daned
to approve them. We have each used them (as opposed to merely wear) at
lease once in eighteen seasons. I have two original Crewfit that are in
the reserve stock. They will pass my annual inspection, but they are
very visibly worn at the folds. These devices do not have an infinite
life.

Now that you have an AIPFD, please remember to inspect it at least
annually. Blow it up and let is sit for a day, and while it is sitting,
replace the batteries in the light you added and weigh and date-mark the
cylinder. Over the years, I have lost two cylinders because they came
up short on weight. Neither had any visible distress to the seal.

Let us depart and hope that your only experience with your AIPFD is that
day when you miss a step to the dink and end up hearing the BANG-
Whoose. It is very comforting - until you figure out that apart from
the embarrassment, you are also out the 20+$ for the re-arm kit.

Please, take the rambling of this old waterman to heart.

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor

MarshallE wrote:
I am looking at various PFD's that are auto/manual inflatable with a
harness. I know very little about the different brands and am hopeful that
others have opinions and perhaps where to purchase at discount prices.
thanks

PFD - please read

Hello All:

All the advice I have read here sounds reasonable. Some, of course, is
personal preference. However what concerns me most is that nobody is
asking the single most important question.......... What temperature
water do you plan on using your PFD????

Before splitting a hair between auto or manual answer this, How long
can you last before lapsing into early stages of hypothermia?

80 degrees F
70 degrees F
60 degrees F
50 degrees F

If you do not know, ya better find out because the type of PFD used in
south FL will not keep your ass alive in the great lakes or any months
north of LA, CA.

Scenario..... fall over board. Water temp is 61 degrees. How long
before you start having uncontrolled shivers and can no longer grasp a
line?

Now calculate these factors: one beer + 61 years old + blood pressure
meds + smoker 10 years ago + 3' chop on the water. When was the last
time you ran 2 miles in under 15 minutes?
Still Bobbing

PFD - please read

This month's Pacific Yachting has an article on this. Seems if you have a
PFD that keeps you from breathing in a lot of water when you first go over
you might stand a chance.
"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello All:

All the advice I have read here sounds reasonable. Some, of course, is
personal preference. However what concerns me most is that nobody is
asking the single most important question.......... What temperature
water do you plan on using your PFD????

Before splitting a hair between auto or manual answer this, How long
can you last before lapsing into early stages of hypothermia?

80 degrees F
70 degrees F
60 degrees F
50 degrees F

If you do not know, ya better find out because the type of PFD used in
south FL will not keep your ass alive in the great lakes or any months
north of LA, CA.

Scenario..... fall over board. Water temp is 61 degrees. How long
before you start having uncontrolled shivers and can no longer grasp a
line?

Now calculate these factors: one beer + 61 years old + blood pressure
meds + smoker 10 years ago + 3' chop on the water. When was the last
time you ran 2 miles in under 15 minutes?
Still Bobbing

PFD - please read

Bob,

Let's just allow that you are very correct about hypothermia.
Survival suits are standard issue during the late season here on the
Great Lakes. My personal opinion is that they will not save many lives
until they come up with a worksuit that is also a PFD and exposure suit.
If you are not wearing it when things go wrong, you will probably not
have time to put it on - ever.

My experience has been that, if your crew can find it, they can get your
body out of the water. I have it on very good authority that your
chances get very bad if your do not maintain your exposure to air.

I have seen individuals that were to all outward appearance COLD and
DEAD come back to life when warmed up. That is not intended to suggest
that I think that this is a good idea.

On more than one occassion (it's called frost biting along the east
coast) I have ended up in water that also had sea ice in it. Yes, the
cold is debilitating, but the navy May West that I used to wear would
keep me afloat even in foul whether gear until the crash boat got there.
On one occasion, they were a little late. I was no help getting me
out of the water, they took me straight to the club house dock, loaded
me in a dock cart and dumped me next to the fireplace.

But, if I had not been at the surface when they did get there, they
might not have found me for quite a while longer.

Matt Colie

Bob wrote:
Paul Nightingale wrote:

This month's Pacific Yachting has an article on this. Seems if you have a
PFD that keeps you from breathing in a lot of water when you first go over
you might stand a chance.

Hi Paul:

I agree...." you might stand a chance...." I apologize if I sound like
a broken record here. I still have not heard anyone acknowledge or
mention water temperature here. I was in Seattle one year when the air
temp was 92 degrees F. So after only one beer and a burger my friend
and I jumped into the sound at a place called Shilshole (just west of
Ballard). While we were sweltering on the rocks when I hit that
beautiful crystal blue water....POW ! It took about 10 minutes and I
could barely haul out on a rock. That 55 degree water was Very
debilitating! That is why I say forget manual or auto. If in water
under 75 degrees I use an insulated Type V worksuit using a simple
harness. If I go over I do not want the added complications of
hypothermia during a retrieval.

So pleaes, please make PFD choices based on local conditions and use
not what some slick cataloge tells you.

PFD - please read

Matt Colie wrote:
Bob,

Let's just allow that you are very correct about hypothermia.
Survival suits are standard issue during the late season here on the
Great Lakes. My personal opinion is that they will not save many lives
until they come up with a worksuit that is also a PFD and exposure suit.
If you are not wearing it when things go wrong, you will probably not
have time to put it on - ever.

Hi Matt:

Eureka...! Now I know what is going on..... Here is the
misunderstanding.
First, SURVIVAL SUITS do not exist anymore. They are called IMMERSION
SUITS. They are not intended for use other than leaving the boat for
the last time. They are also called Gumby Suits. Why are they called
IMMERSION SUITS? I think the word "survival" implied something. Believe
me after losing several friends over the last 30 years there is no such
thing as a SURVIVAL suit. The first two were my best friends from
highschool. One was a roommate at college. The orange makes it simper
for the USCG to find the bodies. Oh remind me to tell you about the
story when my brother inlaw and his buddy lost their boat in AK. The
friend washed up on shore first. My brother inlaw was just outside the
surf and got to watch his friend get munched by a bear. Ummm, a bit
rubber on the outside but tasty inside.

Here is my prefered PFD on cold water. There are USCG approved
WORKSUITS with a Type PFD V rateing. No mittens or booties. The
worksuits are NOT what we used to call survival suits (now immersion
suits) They look just like nylon coveralls only they have full closed
cell floatation as insulation. Plus the suits have an inflatable
(manual) pillow collar. This is what the coasties wear in OR AK
boarding parties. Or at least they use to.

My experience has been that, if your crew can find it, they can get your
body out of the water.

This is the beauty of the work suit. If on deck you the crew have a PFD
PLUS exposure protection.

I have it on very good authority that your
chances get very bad if your do not maintain your exposure to air.

Yes, water conducts heat (I can not remmber exactly) uhhh, help me out
here.. 4 times as fast as air? Keep you head and neck out of the water!

I have seen individuals that were to all outward appearance COLD and
DEAD come back to life when warmed up. That is not intended to suggest
that I think that this is a good idea.

Agreed. I think the kick starts are a bit rough.

On more than one occassion (it's called frost biting along the east
coast) I have ended up in water that also had sea ice in it. Yes, the
cold is debilitating, but the navy May West that I used to wear would
keep me afloat even in foul whether gear until the crash boat got there.

Yes, lots of volume for boyancy.

On one occasion, they were a little late. I was no help getting me
out of the water, they took me straight to the club house dock, loaded
me in a dock cart and dumped me next to the fireplace.

But, if I had not been at the surface when they did get there, they
might not have found me for quite a while longer.

But think of what a more comfortable experince you would have had in a
full length insulated worksuit bobbing about onyour back like a sea
otter.

Do a Google search and type in "STEARNS 1580 anti exposure coverall"
and see what happens.

What part of the county do you live? East coast?
Bob
Matt Colie

Bob wrote:
Paul Nightingale wrote:

This month's Pacific Yachting has an article on this. Seems if you have a
PFD that keeps you from breathing in a lot of water when you first go over
you might stand a chance.

Hi Paul:

I agree...." you might stand a chance...." I apologize if I sound like
a broken record here. I still have not heard anyone acknowledge or
mention water temperature here. I was in Seattle one year when the air
temp was 92 degrees F. So after only one beer and a burger my friend
and I jumped into the sound at a place called Shilshole (just west of
Ballard). While we were sweltering on the rocks when I hit that
beautiful crystal blue water....POW ! It took about 10 minutes and I
could barely haul out on a rock. That 55 degree water was Very
debilitating! That is why I say forget manual or auto. If in water
under 75 degrees I use an insulated Type V worksuit using a simple
harness. If I go over I do not want the added complications of
hypothermia during a retrieval.

So pleaes, please make PFD choices based on local conditions and use
not what some slick cataloge tells you.

PFD - please read

Here you go.............. this is what I ahve been talking about.

https://www.stearnsinc.com/Industria...ryID=756623 8

PFD - please read

Bob,

It seems we are only disagreeing on some very minor points at this time,
but the discussion is very interesting.

A very few years ago, I looked into Exposure suits like the Stearns item
referenced. (I do like the floating otteresk image.)

I concluded that is I were still fishing for a living, it might be good.
I have not done that recently. My time on the water in the last
several decades can largely be put in two categories:
Aa an engineering officer on an iron boat (or other lake bulker).
As a sailor of small cruising or competitive yachts.

As such, the gumby suit might be your only hope for surviving the loss
of a ship, but such simply can not be managed on a small (50ton)
sailing vessel.

I tried donning the suit I was issued in my cabin on a none too small
lake ship and found that I had to go into the thwartships passage to
have enough room to lay the suit out and begin to get it around my body.
I got to the point that I could get it closed up in less than 30
seconds after getting in the cabin. Then, the news and pictures of Fitz
came in and it was determined that Buck (a shipmate of a prior season)
had had about 8 seconds to say Good By. After that, I would unpack the
suit when I got aboard and repack it so it came out of the bag ready to don.

As to the exposure suit, It looked like at great idea. It had three
serious drawbacks for a small boat sailor.
1. They seriously impair the athletic level of movement required to
sail effectively.
2. Storage requires more space than can typically be dedicated to this
purpose.
3. It is difficult quickly to change the insulation value for changing
conditions.

There is another issue a friend pointed out to me (he did a great deal
of time in the Coasty Reserve). The boots and gloves do not attach to
the suit. This allowed the boots to be stripped off by the entry to the
water. This left the crewman with feet so cold he could not climb the
ladder to re-board the boat.

I do not say an exposure might not save your life by conserving body
heat, but if I had purchased the one I evaluated, I would not have been
able to wear it much of the time. That is what I feel is the most
important issue. That is why I personally believe that an AIPFD with
harness is something that should be in every sailor’s seabag, and worn
as much as practical. It should always be worn with foul weather gear
(most have loops to toggle the harness on) and when underway at night.

It is my never to be humble opinion that these things beat colored socks
and are right up there with canned beer. That is because they eliminate
the excuses to not wear a PFD.

To answer your last question, I spent most of the first half of my life
fishing (commercial) and such on the east coast - east of the Race and
as far north as Davis Straight (Ice in the “summer”). I got degrees and
my first engine ticket at a trade school and then came out to the sweat
water when I could not get a berth on the coast. I stayed to have a
family. I had family until very recently and still have friends on
tidal water.

Matt

Bob wrote:
Matt Colie wrote:

Bob,

Let's just allow that you are very correct about hypothermia.
Survival suits are standard issue during the late season here on the
Great Lakes. My personal opinion is that they will not save many lives
until they come up with a worksuit that is also a PFD and exposure suit.
If you are not wearing it when things go wrong, you will probably not
have time to put it on - ever.

Hi Matt:

Eureka...! Now I know what is going on..... Here is the
misunderstanding.
First, SURVIVAL SUITS do not exist anymore. They are called IMMERSION
SUITS. They are not intended for use other than leaving the boat for
the last time. They are also called Gumby Suits. Why are they called
IMMERSION SUITS? I think the word "survival" implied something. Believe
me after losing several friends over the last 30 years there is no such
thing as a SURVIVAL suit. The first two were my best friends from
highschool. One was a roommate at college. The orange makes it simper
for the USCG to find the bodies. Oh remind me to tell you about the
story when my brother inlaw and his buddy lost their boat in AK. The
friend washed up on shore first. My brother inlaw was just outside the
surf and got to watch his friend get munched by a bear. Ummm, a bit
rubber on the outside but tasty inside.

Here is my prefered PFD on cold water. There are USCG approved
WORKSUITS with a Type PFD V rateing. No mittens or booties. The
worksuits are NOT what we used to call survival suits (now immersion
suits) They look just like nylon coveralls only they have full closed
cell floatation as insulation. Plus the suits have an inflatable
(manual) pillow collar. This is what the coasties wear in OR AK
boarding parties. Or at least they use to.

My experience has been that, if your crew can find it, they can get your
body out of the water.

This is the beauty of the work suit. If on deck you the crew have a PFD
PLUS exposure protection.

I have it on very good authority that your
chances get very bad if your do not maintain your exposure to air.

Yes, water conducts heat (I can not remmber exactly) uhhh, help me out
here.. 4 times as fast as air? Keep you head and neck out of the water!

I have seen individuals that were to all outward appearance COLD and
DEAD come back to life when warmed up. That is not intended to suggest
that I think that this is a good idea.

Agreed. I think the kick starts are a bit rough.

On more than one occassion (it's called frost biting along the east
coast) I have ended up in water that also had sea ice in it. Yes, the
cold is debilitating, but the navy May West that I used to wear would
keep me afloat even in foul whether gear until the crash boat got there.

Yes, lots of volume for boyancy.

On one occasion, they were a little late. I was no help getting me
out of the water, they took me straight to the club house dock, loaded
me in a dock cart and dumped me next to the fireplace.

But, if I had not been at the surface when they did get there, they
might not have found me for quite a while longer.

But think of what a more comfortable experince you would have had in a
full length insulated worksuit bobbing about onyour back like a sea
otter.

Do a Google search and type in "STEARNS 1580 anti exposure coverall"
and see what happens.

What part of the county do you live? East coast?
Bob

Matt Colie

Bob wrote:

Paul Nightingale wrote:

This month's Pacific Yachting has an article on this. Seems if you have a
PFD that keeps you from breathing in a lot of water when you first go over
you might stand a chance.

Hi Paul:

I agree...." you might stand a chance...." I apologize if I sound like
a broken record here. I still have not heard anyone acknowledge or
mention water temperature here. I was in Seattle one year when the air
temp was 92 degrees F. So after only one beer and a burger my friend
and I jumped into the sound at a place called Shilshole (just west of
Ballard). While we were sweltering on the rocks when I hit that
beautiful crystal blue water....POW ! It took about 10 minutes and I
could barely haul out on a rock. That 55 degree water was Very
debilitating! That is why I say forget manual or auto. If in water
under 75 degrees I use an insulated Type V worksuit using a simple
harness. If I go over I do not want the added complications of
hypothermia during a retrieval.

So pleaes, please make PFD choices based on local conditions and use
not what some slick cataloge tells you.