Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

I'm considering buying a 19' 50's era custom-built wood runabout. I'm
also considering putting fiberglass onto the hull to get it into the
water sooner and to keep the maintenance down.

Any suggestions? The boat has been out of the water for a few years, so
the wood is pretty dry. The hull is in pretty good shape, so I'm not
covering up a pack of problems. I'm thinking of doing the work myself;
it looks like something I could handle and I have the space in my shop.

Thanks for any advice.

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

WCD wrote in message ...
I'm considering buying a 19' 50's era custom-built wood runabout. I'm
also considering putting fiberglass onto the hull to get it into the
water sooner and to keep the maintenance down.

Any suggestions? The boat has been out of the water for a few years, so
the wood is pretty dry. The hull is in pretty good shape, so I'm not
covering up a pack of problems. I'm thinking of doing the work myself;
it looks like something I could handle and I have the space in my shop.

Thanks for any advice.

In short, if the hull is ok as you say, paint it and launch it. If you
put glass on this type of boat you will have much more trouble, and
much sooner. Scotty

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Allan Vaitses owned a yard and did this type of work (as well as a lot
of other work) for many years. His family is still in the business
AFAIK. He wrote a book about it. Get the book (library) and see what you
think. It's not an easy job, it's not forever.

There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because the
bottom is sealed).

There are ways to deal with both, but no real solutions. The system
gives an old rotting boat another few years of useful work life, but
it's not a preservation method.

There may be exceptions and success stories, but I have not heard them
documented reliably - I don't know of any boats that have had this done,
say, 10 years ago that I can find out there today. If anybody does, or
knows (first hand) of problem boats, maybe they'd post.

Rufus

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Like Rufus said. Glass sheathing is just a way to extend the life of an
otherwise unsalvageable wood hull. It is probably the fastest way to
destroy a decent hull short of actually demolishing it.

WCD wrote:
I'm considering buying a 19' 50's era custom-built wood runabout. I'm
also considering putting fiberglass onto the hull to get it into the
water sooner and to keep the maintenance down.

Any suggestions? The boat has been out of the water for a few years, so
the wood is pretty dry. The hull is in pretty good shape, so I'm not
covering up a pack of problems. I'm thinking of doing the work myself;
it looks like something I could handle and I have the space in my shop.

Thanks for any advice.



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Rufus wrote in message news:8wcCb.510431$Tr4.1423564@attbi_s03...
There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because the
bottom is sealed).

I have never had any delamination or wet rot problems as you
described.

I had a homebuilt plywood 26' sailboat covered with glass that was 25
years old when I sold it with absolutely no problems.

I have lived aboard my 1961 40' sailboat for the last 7 years. Strip
planked mahogany glassed over. The glass and wood are both in perfect
condition on this 43 year old boat.

Both of these boats inner hulls were never painted and stay bone dry.
On the occasion where I had a rainwater leak, ect. and got water in
the hulls, after the bilge pump removes the standing water the rest
just evaporates away.

Note that both of these boats were glassed when they were newly built.

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

In article , steve
wrote:

Rufus wrote in message
news:8wcCb.510431$Tr4.1423564@attbi_s03...
There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because the
bottom is sealed).

I have never had any delamination or wet rot problems as you
described.

This "won't stick" idea comes from the days before epoxy was available
at reasonable prices. Polyester doesn't stick to bare wood very well.
It does relativly well when the wood is new but pretty bad if the wood
is used. Once read in a book that if one wants polyester soaked glass
to stay attached to used wood, it needs to be mechanically fastened
(nailed).

Modern epoxy does very much better and an entire new style of
boatbuilding erupted when it became financially feasable.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

I've seen wood lobster boats that have been polyester
fiberglassed over 15 years ago and still good.

Rufus wrote:
Allan Vaitses owned a yard and did this type of work (as well as a lot
of other work) for many years. His family is still in the business
AFAIK. He wrote a book about it. Get the book (library) and see what you
think. It's not an easy job, it's not forever.

There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because the
bottom is sealed).

There are ways to deal with both, but no real solutions. The system
gives an old rotting boat another few years of useful work life, but
it's not a preservation method.

There may be exceptions and success stories, but I have not heard them
documented reliably - I don't know of any boats that have had this done,
say, 10 years ago that I can find out there today. If anybody does, or
knows (first hand) of problem boats, maybe they'd post.

Rufus

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

I visited a boat shop on Grand Manan Island in the Bay of Fundy
two years ago and my observations would lead me to believe that
what you say about polyester not sticking to wood is incorrect.
This shop built and refurbished commercial lobster boats up to about
40 feet in length. At first I had my doubts. The owner, a great old guy
in his 80's, showed me a traditionally planked boat that he had
polyester fiberglassed over about 15 years prior. The boat was made from
white cedar and white oak and much of the trim was maple.
The boat was still in good shape, no rot, except for the maple trim
pieces which were above the waterline.
This boat was fiberglassed only on the outside. The interior was bare
wood with some areas painted. This boat was being heavily used as a
commercial lobster boat. The boat was back in his shop to replace
the outer rubrails and gunnel trim and to put in a polyester patch
that had worn through where they dragged the traps up over the side.
He explained that the trick was to dry out the wood throughly.
This shop had a heated concrete slab floor.
I asked him about epoxy and he said he would not allow it in his shop
because it was toxic.
Being a long time advocate of the wonders of epoxy I was very surprized
to see all of this but it is hard to argue with reality. Especially when
you see it from people who depend on the materials for thier lives.
Perhaps they were successful using polyester on wood because of the cold
water temperatures and salty water. I don't know, except in this case it
worked.

Another Steve
SteveJ

Le Grande Raoul wrote:
In article , steve
wrote:


Rufus wrote in message
news:8wcCb.510431$Tr4.1423564@attbi_s03...

There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because the
bottom is sealed).

I have never had any delamination or wet rot problems as you
described.


This "won't stick" idea comes from the days before epoxy was available
at reasonable prices. Polyester doesn't stick to bare wood very well.
It does relativly well when the wood is new but pretty bad if the wood
is used. Once read in a book that if one wants polyester soaked glass
to stay attached to used wood, it needs to be mechanically fastened
(nailed).

Modern epoxy does very much better and an entire new style of
boatbuilding erupted when it became financially feasable.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

I looked at a couple mahog. runabouts last year that had been "fiberglassed" at
the factory in the 50's and were still in great shape. I epoxy glass my cedar
strip hulls on the outside only. I have had problems with so called
"encapsualtion" but none at all with the outside application.
Greg Sefton

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

But Steve ...if you recall that polyester is semi-permeable, then putting it
on one side of good dry wood sounds like it would work, no? The dry wood
will give it the best bond it can get, and then later when the boat's in use
water that's absorbed in the wood and glass has a way to escape. If the
structure of the boat doesn't allow too much expansion (as in plywood), then
I don't think the poly bond would suffer too quickly. Epoxy glass would
tend to collect the water at the epoxy/glass-to-wood interface. The initial
bond would be better, but I would guess that a one-side epoxy glassing would
be more prone to rot than a one-side polyester glassing. Epoxy *is* far
better, but you do have to keep it sealed up. Some of the finest wood boats
available, such as Huckins yachts for example, are epoxy glass on plywood
....and sealed on all sides of all wood. As far as toxic substances go,
maybe that fellow who made the remark should read a few MSDS's. I have a
feeling he's going on rumor more than fact on that one.

Brian

"steveJ" wrote in message
...
I visited a boat shop on Grand Manan Island in the Bay of Fundy
two years ago and my observations would lead me to believe that
what you say about polyester not sticking to wood is incorrect.
This shop built and refurbished commercial lobster boats up to about
40 feet in length. At first I had my doubts. The owner, a great old guy
in his 80's, showed me a traditionally planked boat that he had
polyester fiberglassed over about 15 years prior. The boat was made from
white cedar and white oak and much of the trim was maple.
The boat was still in good shape, no rot, except for the maple trim
pieces which were above the waterline.
This boat was fiberglassed only on the outside. The interior was bare
wood with some areas painted. This boat was being heavily used as a
commercial lobster boat. The boat was back in his shop to replace
the outer rubrails and gunnel trim and to put in a polyester patch
that had worn through where they dragged the traps up over the side.
He explained that the trick was to dry out the wood throughly.
This shop had a heated concrete slab floor.
I asked him about epoxy and he said he would not allow it in his shop
because it was toxic.
Being a long time advocate of the wonders of epoxy I was very surprized
to see all of this but it is hard to argue with reality. Especially when
you see it from people who depend on the materials for thier lives.
Perhaps they were successful using polyester on wood because of the cold
water temperatures and salty water. I don't know, except in this case it
worked.

Another Steve
SteveJ

Le Grande Raoul wrote:
In article , steve
wrote:


Rufus wrote in message
news:8wcCb.510431$Tr4.1423564@attbi_s03...

There are two intrinsic problems as I understand it. 1) The glass will
delaminate from the wood, one way or another. 2) Moisture will get into
the wood from the inside and the wood will stay wet and rot (because
the
bottom is sealed).

I have never had any delamination or wet rot problems as you
described.


This "won't stick" idea comes from the days before epoxy was available
at reasonable prices. Polyester doesn't stick to bare wood very well.
It does relativly well when the wood is new but pretty bad if the wood
is used. Once read in a book that if one wants polyester soaked glass
to stay attached to used wood, it needs to be mechanically fastened
(nailed).

Modern epoxy does very much better and an entire new style of
boatbuilding erupted when it became financially feasable.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Mantra The epoxy encapsulation must be done right, and then maintained
that way/Mantra. I would wonder if those canoes that had problems (please
describe them for us) were probably beached enough to cause miniscule leaks
in the canoes. Due to the rough rocks around here, mostly lava sponge, I
don't think I'll ever get to build a stripper than I can utilize much ...the
best lakes we have are in lava country (high Cascades, in Oregon).

As far as the one-side epoxy experience goes, it makes me wonder if some
woods do conduct moisture away from the epoxy/wood interface while other
woods do not, e.g. some woods are less rot resistant when only partially
coated with epoxy. Someone should do a study. It's very interesting
though. The encapsulated canoes were probably trapping water in the wood
while the one-side ones were allowing it to be conducted out? Have you any
comments or guesses on this?

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Bray Haven" wrote in message
...
I looked at a couple mahog. runabouts last year that had been
"fiberglassed" at
the factory in the 50's and were still in great shape. I epoxy glass my
cedar
strip hulls on the outside only. I have had problems with so called
"encapsualtion" but none at all with the outside application.
Greg Sefton

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 01:51:11 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote:
//// As far as toxic substances go,
maybe that fellow who made the remark should read a few MSDS's. I have a
feeling he's going on rumor more than fact on that one.

Brian

Sadly, many people have developed extreme sensitivity to epoxy resins
after less than proplonged exposure while building projects.
They have to swear off the stuff, thereafter,

Brian W

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Wow -

There is a lot going on here.

If you read all the MSDS (I have had to do so), Epoxy is less toxic
than polyester, and as it does not outgas in curing (notice - no new
epoxy smell?). The exposure sensitivity can and does happen with almost
anything.

I have seem a number of hulls that were glassed after some service time.
bond failures are common.

If you use a thin polyester resin on new-clean wood, you have a chance.
The builders that went that way also did not caulk the seams. I know
of few that a few working boats and a couple of Tahoe Chriscraft that
are still in great shape. But, there is a secondary problem with
replacing a broken strake or frame.

When you consider that the life of a typical wood hull was twenty years,
you begin to realize that a lot has change in th life of people in my world.

Matt Colie - Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor
www.southpointechandler.com



Brian Whatcott wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 01:51:11 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote:

//// As far as toxic substances go,
maybe that fellow who made the remark should read a few MSDS's. I have a
feeling he's going on rumor more than fact on that one.

Brian


Sadly, many people have developed extreme sensitivity to epoxy resins
after less than proplonged exposure while building projects.
They have to swear off the stuff, thereafter,

Brian W

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Another thought is that you did not say how the boat was planked.
"custom-built wood runabout" could mean a variety of things.
Is the boat of lapstrake construction? If it is and the wood is is good
shape, why fiberglass? Covering the lap ridges with glass would be
difficult.

I have seen some old mahogany runabouts that had a double layer of thin
planking with canvas in between.
The canvas rots and the boat leaks. Probably better to fiberglass
over the outer hull in this case.

Some are batten seam construction. The planks do not shrink apart very
much with this type and if in good shape....why fiberglass?

If you have a regular carvel planked hull, with caulked seams, then
you will periodically need to recaulk but you won't have to do this
every year. A coat of maintenance varnish every year and some bottom
paint touch up might go a long way.
I think some people who have boats like this tend to trailer them
and not use them very much and then wonder why they leak when they put
them in the water. This type of boat benefits from being kept in the
water and not being allowed to really dry out when hauled in the winter.

One final thought. Once you commit to fiberglassing the boat, whether
you use epoxy or polyester, you make it much more difficult to replace
a plank that becomes damaged or rotten. The nice thing about a carvel
planked boat is you can take it apart (in theory) and replace damaged
pieces and keep the boat going a long long time.

If your primary concern is ease of maintenance, buy a plastic boat.
But then that wouldn't be any fun at all, would it?


WCD wrote:
I'm considering buying a 19' 50's era custom-built wood runabout. I'm
also considering putting fiberglass onto the hull to get it into the
water sooner and to keep the maintenance down.

Any suggestions? The boat has been out of the water for a few years, so
the wood is pretty dry. The hull is in pretty good shape, so I'm not
covering up a pack of problems. I'm thinking of doing the work myself;
it looks like something I could handle and I have the space in my shop.

Thanks for any advice.

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Steve,

What's "batten seam" construction?

Thanks,
Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass

"steveJ" wrote in message
...
Another thought is that you did not say how the boat was planked.
"custom-built wood runabout" could mean a variety of things.
Is the boat of lapstrake construction? If it is and the wood is is good
shape, why fiberglass? Covering the lap ridges with glass would be
difficult.

I have seen some old mahogany runabouts that had a double layer of thin
planking with canvas in between.
The canvas rots and the boat leaks. Probably better to fiberglass
over the outer hull in this case.

Some are batten seam construction. The planks do not shrink apart very
much with this type and if in good shape....why fiberglass?

If you have a regular carvel planked hull, with caulked seams, then
you will periodically need to recaulk but you won't have to do this
every year. A coat of maintenance varnish every year and some bottom
paint touch up might go a long way.
I think some people who have boats like this tend to trailer them
and not use them very much and then wonder why they leak when they put
them in the water. This type of boat benefits from being kept in the
water and not being allowed to really dry out when hauled in the winter.

One final thought. Once you commit to fiberglassing the boat, whether
you use epoxy or polyester, you make it much more difficult to replace
a plank that becomes damaged or rotten. The nice thing about a carvel
planked boat is you can take it apart (in theory) and replace damaged
pieces and keep the boat going a long long time.

If your primary concern is ease of maintenance, buy a plastic boat.
But then that wouldn't be any fun at all, would it?


WCD wrote:
I'm considering buying a 19' 50's era custom-built wood runabout. I'm
also considering putting fiberglass onto the hull to get it into the
water sooner and to keep the maintenance down.

Any suggestions? The boat has been out of the water for a few years, so
the wood is pretty dry. The hull is in pretty good shape, so I'm not
covering up a pack of problems. I'm thinking of doing the work myself;
it looks like something I could handle and I have the space in my shop.

Thanks for any advice.

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

In article InWJb.745409$Fm2.673024@attbi_s04, Brian D
wrote:

Steve,

What's "batten seam" construction?

I'm not Steve but batten construction uses a narrow piece of wood on
the inside to cover the seam between planks. The plank is fastened to
the batten.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Gotcha.

Brian

"Le Grande Raoul" wrote in message
...
In article InWJb.745409$Fm2.673024@attbi_s04, Brian D
wrote:

Steve,

What's "batten seam" construction?

I'm not Steve but batten construction uses a narrow piece of wood on
the inside to cover the seam between planks. The plank is fastened to
the batten.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

Yup...that's it.

Le Grande Raoul wrote:
In article InWJb.745409$Fm2.673024@attbi_s04, Brian D
wrote:


Steve,

What's "batten seam" construction?


I'm not Steve but batten construction uses a narrow piece of wood on
the inside to cover the seam between planks. The plank is fastened to
the batten.

Jeff

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

matt colie wrote in message ...
Wow -

There is a lot going on here.

If you read all the MSDS (I have had to do so), Epoxy is less toxic
than polyester, and as it does not outgas in curing (notice - no new
epoxy smell?). The exposure sensitivity can and does happen with almost
anything.

When I was 20 I began rebuilding an airplane using epoxy glues.
After a year of part-time work on the project, and getting the stuff
on my skin, I had to abandon the epoxy and go to urea-formaldehyde. My
eyelids would swell up just in the presence of epoxy curing, and my
immune system got all screwed up and I became allergic to a range of
things like milk, many pollens and dust. 30 years later I still suffer
the effects and have to be really careful around any epoxies.
On the other hand, I have worked extensively with polyester
resins and had no trouble at all.
On the subject of polyester vs. epoxy, I have found that
polyester won't cure if applied over an old epoxied surface. Stays
gummy. Had to scrape it off and remove all the old epoxy, then
re-glass it.

Dan

Glassing the hull of a wooden runabout
 

steveJ wrote:

I visited a boat shop on Grand Manan Island in the Bay of Fundy
two years ago and my observations would lead me to believe that
what you say about polyester not sticking to wood is incorrect.....

-------

Your point about the wood being dry when covered with polyester resin is a good
point. It may explain his good results. Mostly people glass over their wood
hulls because of hints of rot etc. - ie. moisture damage - so for most of us,
the 'dry hull' is probably out of reach at the time of glassing.

I am in the marine epoxy business. I have personal experience with fiberglass
resin pulling off a wooden hull and get calls about that several times a year.
The polyester bond to wood seems to last 8 - 12 years and then starts to
disbond...

hope this helps a little bit.....

paul oman
www.epoxyproducts.com