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Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
A small 2-square-feet area around an inspection hole on the deck of my
fiberglass boat is kind of springy. I believe water has found its way through the flange of the inspection hole into the core, and I believe that the core has become rotten and has delaminated from the fiberglass skin. I am going over books to learn the right way to fix this problem. But I have a question that I don't know the answer. According to the hull/deck repair books from WEST SYSTEM and Don Casey, they both recommend using epoxy to glue the new core and the old fiberglass skin. This makes sense because epoxy is good for attaching dissimilar materials together. So far so good. Both books recommend grind down the edges of the fiberglass skin to create tapered edges, and then put fiberglass cloth and epoxy to link up the old fiberglass skins together with the fiberglass skin on the deck. I buy the idea of using epoxy to join the fiberglass skin. But I have a question on how to finish the surface. If we use epoxy to join the fiberglass skin, the cured epoxy is the outer surface before any finishing is put on top of it. According to Don Casey's book, gelcoat doesn't adhere well with epoxy. He suggested painting with non-skid additive or attaching non-skid overlay over the area to cover up the epoxy area. I am under the impression that paint is not good for high traffic area, right? And I don't know how good a non-skid overlay will look when it is placed on existing non-skid surface. I assume that the existing non-skid surface is made from gelcoat, and I would assume that putting gelcoat with non-skid additive over that area will be better compatible with the non-skid surface on the rest of the deck. Is painting with non-skid additive good enough for high traffic area? Can we sand the area and then spray a thin layer of gelcoat over the epoxy and then add non-skid additive onto the gelcoat using a shaker? What would you do to finish the area? Thanks in advance for any info. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
For purty, I think you're going to have to paint. What the limits of the
painted area are depends on your esthetics. I have the impression that there are many paints suitable for high traffic areas. Porch & deck enamel?? Creative masking of the edges of the paint can make it look like something that was planned. If your existing non-skid is the sand-in-paint flavor, you can probably match the texture after a few tries. If it's a molded in pattern, then there is a scheme where you make a "mold" from an undamaged area and press it down into/on top of the fixing goop before it hardens. Seems like I've seen a write-up in one of the magazines recently for this technique. Roger http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm wrote in message ups.com... A small 2-square-feet area around an inspection hole on the deck of my fiberglass boat is kind of springy. I believe water has found its way through the flange of the inspection hole into the core, and I believe that the core has become rotten and has delaminated from the fiberglass skin. I am going over books to learn the right way to fix this problem. But I have a question that I don't know the answer. According to the hull/deck repair books from WEST SYSTEM and Don Casey, they both recommend using epoxy to glue the new core and the old fiberglass skin. This makes sense because epoxy is good for attaching dissimilar materials together. So far so good. Both books recommend grind down the edges of the fiberglass skin to create tapered edges, and then put fiberglass cloth and epoxy to link up the old fiberglass skins together with the fiberglass skin on the deck. I buy the idea of using epoxy to join the fiberglass skin. But I have a question on how to finish the surface. If we use epoxy to join the fiberglass skin, the cured epoxy is the outer surface before any finishing is put on top of it. According to Don Casey's book, gelcoat doesn't adhere well with epoxy. He suggested painting with non-skid additive or attaching non-skid overlay over the area to cover up the epoxy area. I am under the impression that paint is not good for high traffic area, right? And I don't know how good a non-skid overlay will look when it is placed on existing non-skid surface. I assume that the existing non-skid surface is made from gelcoat, and I would assume that putting gelcoat with non-skid additive over that area will be better compatible with the non-skid surface on the rest of the deck. Is painting with non-skid additive good enough for high traffic area? Can we sand the area and then spray a thin layer of gelcoat over the epoxy and then add non-skid additive onto the gelcoat using a shaker? What would you do to finish the area? Thanks in advance for any info. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
For purty, I think you're going to have to paint. What the limits of the
painted area are depends on your esthetics. I have the impression that there are many paints suitable for high traffic areas. Porch & deck enamel?? Creative masking of the edges of the paint can make it look like something that was planned. Good to know that some paint can withstand traffic. Honestly, I am not impressed with paint that people put on porch or deck. They eventually deteriorate after foot traffic especially near the stairway. Therefore, I try to avoid using paint. Hopefully, I can find some intermediate agent that I can put between the cured epoxy and the gelcoat (that I want to put on top of the cured epoxy), and somehow help them to bond together. If your existing non-skid is the sand-in-paint flavor, you can probably match the texture after a few tries. If it's a molded in pattern, then there is a scheme where you make a "mold" from an undamaged area and press it down into/on top of the fixing goop before it hardens. Seems like I've seen a write-up in one of the magazines recently for this technique. Not sure how the existing non-skid surface was created. I will try a couple methods to see which one comes close. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
|
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
We all deteriorate with traffic. You should have seen me after a few hours
in the Gary, IN, traffic on Thanksgiving eve a few years ago. Roger http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm wrote in message oups.com... Good to know that some paint can withstand traffic. Honestly, I am not impressed with paint that people put on porch or deck. They eventually deteriorate after foot traffic especially near the stairway. Therefore, I try to avoid using paint. Hopefully, I can find some intermediate agent that I can put between the cured epoxy and the gelcoat (that I want to put on top of the cured epoxy), and somehow help them to bond together. If your existing non-skid is the sand-in-paint flavor, you can probably match the texture after a few tries. If it's a molded in pattern, then there is a scheme where you make a "mold" from an undamaged area and press it down into/on top of the fixing goop before it hardens. Seems like I've seen a write-up in one of the magazines recently for this technique. Not sure how the existing non-skid surface was created. I will try a couple methods to see which one comes close. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
|
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
It's possible to mix white pigment (titanitum oxide?) into the resin so
surface wear and scratches in paint or gelcoat aren't as noticeable. |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
Unfortunately for me there is no easy access to the underside. The
boat is a small 18-ft center console, and the space between the deck and the structure below deck is only a couple inches. Therefore, I will have to fix it from the top side. Jay Chan Jim wrote: You are supposed to do repairs like this from the underside. Not breaking the outside skin. So, what's to paint, except the INSIDE? wrote: A small 2-square-feet area around an inspection hole on the deck of my fiberglass boat is kind of springy. I believe water has found its way through the flange of the inspection hole into the core, and I believe that the core has become rotten and has delaminated from the fiberglass skin. I am going over books to learn the right way to fix this problem. But I have a question that I don't know the answer. According to the hull/deck repair books from WEST SYSTEM and Don Casey, they both recommend using epoxy to glue the new core and the old fiberglass skin. This makes sense because epoxy is good for attaching dissimilar materials together. So far so good. Both books recommend grind down the edges of the fiberglass skin to create tapered edges, and then put fiberglass cloth and epoxy to link up the old fiberglass skins together with the fiberglass skin on the deck. I buy the idea of using epoxy to join the fiberglass skin. But I have a question on how to finish the surface. If we use epoxy to join the fiberglass skin, the cured epoxy is the outer surface before any finishing is put on top of it. According to Don Casey's book, gelcoat doesn't adhere well with epoxy. He suggested painting with non-skid additive or attaching non-skid overlay over the area to cover up the epoxy area. I am under the impression that paint is not good for high traffic area, right? And I don't know how good a non-skid overlay will look when it is placed on existing non-skid surface. I assume that the existing non-skid surface is made from gelcoat, and I would assume that putting gelcoat with non-skid additive over that area will be better compatible with the non-skid surface on the rest of the deck. Is painting with non-skid additive good enough for high traffic area? Can we sand the area and then spray a thin layer of gelcoat over the epoxy and then add non-skid additive onto the gelcoat using a shaker? What would you do to finish the area? Thanks in advance for any info. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
Terry Spragg wrote:
wrote: A small 2-square-feet area around an inspection hole on the deck of my fiberglass boat is kind of springy. I believe water has found its way through the flange of the inspection hole into the core, and I believe that the core has become rotten and has delaminated from the fiberglass skin. I am going over books to learn the right way to fix this problem. But I have a question that I don't know the answer. According to the hull/deck repair books from WEST SYSTEM and Don Casey, they both recommend using epoxy to glue the new core and the old fiberglass skin. This makes sense because epoxy is good for attaching dissimilar materials together. So far so good. Both books recommend grind down the edges of the fiberglass skin to create tapered edges, and then put fiberglass cloth and epoxy to link up the old fiberglass skins together with the fiberglass skin on the deck. I buy the idea of using epoxy to join the fiberglass skin. But I have a question on how to finish the surface. If we use epoxy to join the fiberglass skin, the cured epoxy is the outer surface before any finishing is put on top of it. According to Don Casey's book, gelcoat doesn't adhere well with epoxy. He suggested painting with non-skid additive or attaching non-skid overlay over the area to cover up the epoxy area. I am under the impression that paint is not good for high traffic area, right? And I don't know how good a non-skid overlay will look when it is placed on existing non-skid surface. I assume that the existing non-skid surface is made from gelcoat, and I would assume that putting gelcoat with non-skid additive over that area will be better compatible with the non-skid surface on the rest of the deck. Is painting with non-skid additive good enough for high traffic area? Can we sand the area and then spray a thin layer of gelcoat over the epoxy and then add non-skid additive onto the gelcoat using a shaker? What would you do to finish the area? Thanks in advance for any info. Jay Chan I put the original top deck pieces back, using epoxy goo and adjustable height guide screws under the top bits, into the new core. Wipe of the excess with plasic baggies, possibly to re-use and then with dampened acetone rags, pressing gently, and weight down lightly to cure with poly bags of dirt. The poly doesn't stick. Clean up the pattern with a spoon, then when hard, a dremel, and you stand a chance of never noticing the scars, if you cut it off sensibly with a thin dremel cutter wheel. Spring will tell if, instead of whittling for a week, I should have put down an overlay of glass, resin, poly plastic sheet, and expanded metal grille to form antiskid. It's been two years now, and I am not afraid to do the stbd side, in about 10 more, the same way. Terry K I am trying to understand what you are saying. What do you mean by using "adjustable height guide screws under the top bits, into the new core"? Do you mean using screws (and epoxy) to attach the old fiberglass skin to the new core? Then you need to deal with covering up the screw heads, right? What's the purpose of using screws? Should we simply use epoxy alone instead? When you said "Clean up the pattern with a spoon", I assume you mean using a spoon to remove the excess epoxy that gets sequeezed out from the joint, right? What you said "..., a dremel, and you stand a chance of never noticing the scars, if you cut it off sensibly with a thin dremel cutter wheel", I assume you mean using a small Dremel power tool to cut out the excess epoxy that gets sequeezed out from the joints and has become hardened. I don't understand when you said: "Spring will tell if, instead of whittling for a week, I should have put down an overlay of glass, resin, poly plastic sheet, and expanded metal grille to form antiskid. It's been two years now, and I am not afraid to do the stbd side, in about 10 more, the same way." I have a feeling that you are trying to say that your method should be as good as another method, and the other method would take more steps to get done. What I don't understand is that if you had already done the repair ten years ago, you should have known the result by now. I am wondering why you still need to wait for next spring to know the result. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
William R. Watt wrote:
It's possible to mix white pigment (titanitum oxide?) into the resin so surface wear and scratches in paint or gelcoat aren't as noticeable. Thanks for the tip. This should help hiding any scratch in the painted non-skid surface until I get around to repaint the area. Now, I just need to re-read WEST SYSTEM books to see if we can mix color into their epoxy. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
|
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
|
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
Terry Spragg wrote:
wrote: Terry Spragg wrote: wrote: A small 2-square-feet area around an inspection hole on the deck of my fiberglass boat is kind of springy. I believe water has found its way through the flange of the inspection hole into the core, and I believe that the core has become rotten and has delaminated from the fiberglass skin. I am going over books to learn the right way to fix this problem. But I have a question that I don't know the answer. According to the hull/deck repair books from WEST SYSTEM and Don Casey, they both recommend using epoxy to glue the new core and the old fiberglass skin. This makes sense because epoxy is good for attaching dissimilar materials together. So far so good. Both books recommend grind down the edges of the fiberglass skin to create tapered edges, and then put fiberglass cloth and epoxy to link up the old fiberglass skins together with the fiberglass skin on the deck. I buy the idea of using epoxy to join the fiberglass skin. But I have a question on how to finish the surface. If we use epoxy to join the fiberglass skin, the cured epoxy is the outer surface before any finishing is put on top of it. According to Don Casey's book, gelcoat doesn't adhere well with epoxy. He suggested painting with non-skid additive or attaching non-skid overlay over the area to cover up the epoxy area. I am under the impression that paint is not good for high traffic area, right? And I don't know how good a non-skid overlay will look when it is placed on existing non-skid surface. I assume that the existing non-skid surface is made from gelcoat, and I would assume that putting gelcoat with non-skid additive over that area will be better compatible with the non-skid surface on the rest of the deck. Is painting with non-skid additive good enough for high traffic area? Can we sand the area and then spray a thin layer of gelcoat over the epoxy and then add non-skid additive onto the gelcoat using a shaker? What would you do to finish the area? Thanks in advance for any info. Jay Chan I put the original top deck pieces back, using epoxy goo and adjustable height guide screws under the top bits, into the new core. Wipe of the excess with plasic baggies, possibly to re-use and then with dampened acetone rags, pressing gently, and weight down lightly to cure with poly bags of dirt. The poly doesn't stick. Clean up the pattern with a spoon, then when hard, a dremel, and you stand a chance of never noticing the scars, if you cut it off sensibly with a thin dremel cutter wheel. Spring will tell if, instead of whittling for a week, I should have put down an overlay of glass, resin, poly plastic sheet, and expanded metal grille to form antiskid. It's been two years now, and I am not afraid to do the stbd side, in about 10 more, the same way. Terry K I am trying to understand what you are saying. What do you mean by using "adjustable height guide screws under the top bits, into the new core"? Do you mean using screws (and epoxy) to attach the old fiberglass skin to the new core? Then you need to deal with covering up the screw heads, right? What's the purpose of using screws? Should we simply use epoxy alone instead? After the replacement core is in and cured, the top deck removed earlier is used to close the deck up again. Levelling the top is accomplished by putting screws down into the new core at the corners of the removed pieces and adjusting them so the top piece ends up resting level with the unaffected deck. Once the adjustments are made, an ample gob of goo is used to stick the top piece back where it belongs, covering up the height adjustment screws, and squeezing out the excess very gently to avoid sucking air back under the top pieces when heavy pressure is released. The excess is removed, wiped off with plastic bags, leaving the original surface more or less flush, with thin lines of epoxy, scars, sealing the saw cuts used to remove the top sections. When you said "Clean up the pattern with a spoon", I assume you mean using a spoon to remove the excess epoxy that gets sequeezed out from the joint, right? Right. What you said "..., a dremel, and you stand a chance of never noticing the scars, if you cut it (the top pieces)-tk off sensibly with a thin dremel cutter wheel", I assume you mean using a small Dremel power tool to cut out the excess epoxy that gets sequeezed out from the joints and has become hardened. That, too. I also used a small wire brush and a grinding wheel to sculpt the joins in the anti skid surface, restoring the appearance considerably. I did not tint the goo used, as it would need a lot of pigment, would likely not match colour, and the deck would still want painting. I used a dremel thin cutting wheel to excise the portions of deck under which I suspected the core was rotton, then pryed up the sections removed. The pieces were about a foot square at the largest. In some areas, the rot was not as expansive as the section cut out, and this presented an obstacle to lifting the top deck piece free. A special saw was made from a folding Coughlin camp saw, by filing a few extra teeth in the end, and with it, I was able to saw through remaining good core to release the top section where the core was still good. I was afraid of breaking the top sections being removed where it was stuck down to good core parts. It was neccessasry to scrape out under the unremoved sections 3 inches in some cases where I was close to the boundary of good and rotton core. I did not remove the entire side deck in one piece, as only about 1/2 of it was bad, mainly along the gunnel, almost where you could envision water channelled by gravity. The replacement core was not tightly fitted, was mainly there to reduce the amount of epoxy goo used to build up the core section. So, the new deck is as much epoxy as it is replacement core. I guess the boat is about 1o pounds heavier than it was, excluding the absorbed water in the blck mush rotton core. I used a large syringe made from an old caulking tube to inject thickened epoxy goo into the areas where new core was fitted under the deck where I had scraped out bad core. A friend who does this commercially says that among other custom tools he uses an ice chipper sharpened into a chisel to cut through large areas of remaining good core, to enable lifting larger sections, cutting only along anti skid edges to preserve the appearance of the deck. He said it was a lot of work to get entire sections cut out whole that way. I feared my underdeck glass was too light to support much prying pressure and was right. It was only a very light scrim under the core. Remember, moulded boats are applied to the female mould from the outside layer gelcoat first, then layer by layer through to the interior. Solid epoxy 5/8" inches thick has got to be stronger than balsa wood core, if not as light or cheap to manufacture. I have jumped up and down on the new deck, and trust it enough to "bury the rail," or sail hard. I don't understand when you said: "Spring will tell if, instead of whittling for a week, I should have put down an overlay of glass, resin, poly plastic sheet, and expanded metal grille to form antiskid. [new paragraph] -tk It's been two years now, and I am not afraid to do the stbd side, in about 10 more, the same way." I have a feeling that you are trying to say that your method should be as good as another method, and the other method would take more steps to get done. I was referring to another method of restoration of the antiskid pattern which would possibly give a better finish appearance. What I don't understand is that if you had already done the repair ten years ago, you should have known the result by now. I am wondering why you still need to wait for next spring to know the result. Jay Chan I did port side deck two years ago. I am happy enough with it. The stbd side may need doing in a few (pray it takes ten) years, as it is a little suspicious, but not obvious. If I do it, I will do it the same way, especially since the stbd side is obstructed underneath by cabinetry, etc. Spring will reprove the durability of the repair. Early this spring I was delighted to see no evidence of cracks or other new damage. Around here, freezing -30 celcius winter ice will expose weaknesses in waterproofing dramatically. This rot spreads by virtue of expanded ice in damp core seperating the bond in it's niegbours, an inch at a time over the years, to enable water to spread within the core, freeze, and perpetuate the process, year by year. Terry K Thanks for explaining to me. You have brought up some issues that I didn't think of previously. I didn't realize that we need to level the removed fiberglass skin when we try to glue it back in place over the new core. I thought it would simply lay flat on its own. Does this have something to do with the possibility that the fiberglass skin may have been deformed by the flexing of the deck and by the process of removing it from the damaged core? I will need to pay attention to this issue when I need to put the fiberglass skin back in place. Thanks for pointing this out. Seem like you used a dremel cutter wheel to make a thin cut on the deck to remove the fiberglass skin, and then later on you used epoxy to join the removed fiberglass skin with the unremoved fiberglass skin. I have to wonder how strong the connection is. This cannot be as strong as using fiberglass cloth and epoxy to join the two edges together. I have a feeling that your method is probably "OK" if the area is very small; but this will not be the method that I will use. I think I will stick with the "taper the two edges and epoxy them together with fiberglass cloth" approach. Thanks for pointing out that the inner fiberglass skin is quite thin. I will watch out for this when I need to remove the damaged core. I surely don't want to break the inner skin, and make the repair more difficult than necessary. I see your point of preferring solid fiberglass deck instead of cored deck. But I will have to stick with using core material in order to match the area surrounding the damaged area. Thanks anyway. Jay Chan |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
I know what you are saying. This is hard to match the color exactly.
But something close to the surrounding color should be good enough for coloring the epoxy -- close enough color that the scratches on the paint will not become a constant eyesore. Jay Chan Terry Spragg wrote: wrote: William R. Watt wrote: It's possible to mix white pigment (titanitum oxide?) into the resin so surface wear and scratches in paint or gelcoat aren't as noticeable. Thanks for the tip. This should help hiding any scratch in the painted non-skid surface until I get around to repaint the area. Now, I just need to re-read WEST SYSTEM books to see if we can mix color into their epoxy. Jay Chan They won't teach you how to match the colour accurately. Terry K |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
I've been most satisfied when patching; e.g. kitchen tiles, when I used a
contrasting color. A slightly mis-matched area, which gets worse as the two areas age at different rates, makes it obvious that it's a patch job. A contrasting area, even if in poor taste, is deliberate. Roger http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm wrote in message oups.com... I know what you are saying. This is hard to match the color exactly. But something close to the surrounding color should be good enough for coloring the epoxy -- close enough color that the scratches on the paint will not become a constant eyesore. Jay Chan Terry Spragg wrote: wrote: William R. Watt wrote: It's possible to mix white pigment (titanitum oxide?) into the resin so surface wear and scratches in paint or gelcoat aren't as noticeable. Thanks for the tip. This should help hiding any scratch in the painted non-skid surface until I get around to repaint the area. Now, I just need to re-read WEST SYSTEM books to see if we can mix color into their epoxy. Jay Chan They won't teach you how to match the colour accurately. Terry K |
Epoxy or Polyester for Fixing Rotten Core on Deck?
wrote in message ups.com... Unfortunately for me there is no easy access to the underside. bidni khlopec! mk5000 "When one can cause a death without even knowing about it, that's gotta be marketable skill! Now, where's Bin Laden? "--barb |
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