Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

:Nah, I don't think that adds up.

So construct your case for why it doesn't.

:Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was dominated by
:the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the cost was
:more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).

Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
such....

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

In article , Fred J. McCall
wrote:

"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

:Nah, I don't think that adds up.

So construct your case for why it doesn't.

I doubt if Charles has any prospect of doing so.

:Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was dominated
:by
:the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the cost was
:more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).

Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
such....

Yes, it all adds up. To put it in a more historical context, RN pay
rate mid-18th century for an able seaman was 24 shillings a month
(before deductions, but the govt didn't get any of the deductions).
His victuals were valued [by NAM Rodger, source of the other figures,
too, and good enough for me] at 25s a month; lunar months in each case.
Hmm, that's GBP 31 16s 6d per annum. Ordinary seamen and landsmen were
paid a little less, higher grades substantially more, but they all had
to eat. So if we multiply the AB rate plus victuals by the ship's
complement, we will not be far wrong as to the total. So a 64-gun 3rd
rate, with 500 men, would have cost just under 16,000 GBP annually in
food and wages alone. That's at least equivalent to 70,000 dollars[1] .
_Constitution_ had fewer people but they were better paid and fed, so
we're in the right ballpark. And that cost is before you've spent a
penny on cordage, spars and sailcloth, never mind powder and shot. Or
medical supplies. Not to mention Fred's shore establishments, which did
not (and do not) come cheap.

Comparing these figures with various construction costs other people
have come up with, it would seem that annual running costs of around a
third of construction costs, in the age of fighting sail, is not only
plausible: it's probably well below par for the course.

Warships have *always* been expensive to run.



[1] Dollar exchange rates (and much other interesting currency stuff)
may be found at the fascinating
http://www.eh.net/hmit/

--
"The past resembles the future as water resembles water" Ibn Khaldun

My .mac.com address is a spam sink.
If you wish to email me, try alan dot lothian at blueyonder dot co dot uk

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

Being an ex USN Sailor, I found this discussion semi interesting about 30
messages ago, but your lack of direct service experience is beginning to
wear on the thread, IMHO.

Is anyone involved in building a CVN? Will it be a "nuke"?

I think I should point out the life expectancy of any CVN is approximately
15 minutes in an encounter with any submarine, including the oldest in
commision.

Maybe y'all should rethink your plans...

Former FTB2 (SS)
US Submarine Service
"We go down for money"

"Gregg Germain" wrote in message
...
In rec.boats.building Fred J. McCall wrote:
: "Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

: :Nah, I don't think that adds up.

: So construct your case for why it doesn't.

: :Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was
dominated by
: :the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the
cost was
: :more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).

: Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
: to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
: all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
: such....

yes and just paying them is not, I believe, the major cost these
days. You have health care, various allowances, etc. And as you say
all the suport personnel that are requried (service doctors,
medicines, buildings, paperwork people, billeting people etc).

Now it's true we take better care of our people than they did back
then. But we have a much larger economy as well.


--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

In rec.boats.building Fred Williams wrote:
: Being an ex USN Sailor, I found this discussion semi interesting about 30
: messages ago, but your lack of direct service experience is beginning to
: wear on the thread, IMHO.

Just who exactly are you speaking to?

If me, how did you arrive at the conclusion that I have no direct
service experience?

: Is anyone involved in building a CVN? Will it be a "nuke"?

: I think I should point out the life expectancy of any CVN is approximately
: 15 minutes in an encounter with any submarine, including the oldest in
: commision.

What has this to do with the discussion at hand? Is it possible you
are replying to the wrong thread?


: Maybe y'all should rethink your plans...

Maybe y'all better regain consciousness and realize where you
are.


: Former FTB2 (SS)
: US Submarine Service
: "We go down for money"

: "Gregg Germain" wrote in message
: ...
: In rec.boats.building Fred J. McCall wrote:
: : "Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
:
: : :Nah, I don't think that adds up.
:
: : So construct your case for why it doesn't.
:
: : :Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was
: dominated by
: : :the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the
: cost was
: : :more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).
:
: : Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
: : to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
: : all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
: : such....
:
: yes and just paying them is not, I believe, the major cost these
: days. You have health care, various allowances, etc. And as you say
: all the suport personnel that are requried (service doctors,
: medicines, buildings, paperwork people, billeting people etc).
:
: Now it's true we take better care of our people than they did back
: then. But we have a much larger economy as well.
:
:
: --- Gregg
: "Improvise, adapt, overcome."
:
: Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
: Phone: (617) 496-1558
:



--


--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

"Ståle Sannerud" wrote

The overall expense was roughly: Hull 50%,
artillery (guns and carriages) 25%, sails and rigging 25%.

Something often commented on in the shot-and-sail genre of fiction (O'Brian,
Forester, etc) is the cost of giving a man of war a pretty colour scheme,
usually out of the officers' pocket. Apparently this was a smart career
move, as scruffy ships didn't impress admirals. Does your source give any
details on at what cost and intervals ships were painted with gold leaf,
etc?

snipped great post

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

"The Blue Max" skrev i melding
s.com...

"Ståle Sannerud" wrote

The overall expense was roughly: Hull 50%,
artillery (guns and carriages) 25%, sails and rigging 25%.

Something often commented on in the shot-and-sail genre of fiction
(O'Brian,
Forester, etc) is the cost of giving a man of war a pretty colour scheme,
usually out of the officers' pocket. Apparently this was a smart career
move, as scruffy ships didn't impress admirals. Does your source give any
details on at what cost and intervals ships were painted with gold leaf,
etc?

snipped great post



Not in the Danish source, no. However, I bought a book on shipmodeling from
Editions Ancre around Christmas, this is Jean Boudriot's publishing house
and a small booklet written by him discussing painting of French ships in
the late 1700s was enclosed as a surprise bonus. The following data is from
that source (more or less translated from the French text by yours truly, a
language that I am not even remotely fluent in), copied from a posting I
made to a Yahoo discussion group some time back, discussing the appropriate
painting of ship models:

"
Prices as of 1780, "£" = 1 Louis d'or á 20 sols,
1 quintal = 100 livres á 489 gram.

Crushed red ochre oil paint - £40/quintal
Crushed yellow ochre oil paint - £40/quintal
Gray oil paint - £40/quintal
Crushed red and yellow ochre - £5/quintal
Flanders-glue (spacle, I think) - 16s/livre
Sinober red - £6/livre
Lead white - £35/quintal
Lead white oil paint - £43/quintal
Preussian blue - £18/livre
Regular enamel (for azure blue) - 20s/livre
Green oil paint - 32s/livre
Neaples yellow - 32s/livre
Lamp blacking oil paint - 16s/livre
Grey green and mountain green - 16s/livre
Vermillion-red - £6 10s/livre
Nut-oil - £40/quintal
Linseed oil - £30/quintal
Gold leaf in 3.5" square leaves - £2 5s per leaf

For instance, preussian blue was 45 times more expensive than plain
old yellow ochre - they'd use the one for the French royal coat of
arms on the stern, the other for the ship's sides :) So while I
would not doubt that even something as large as a figurehead could
be very brilliantly painted indeed I'd tend to take exception to
brilliant colours being used on the hull itself to any degree! (And
looking at the price of gold leaf I can certainly see how they
managed to blow 6000 pounds on decorating the Sovereign of the
Seas...)
"

(I hope Outlook Express does not post this in rich-text format, my apologies
in advance if it does...)

It should be obvious that rich colours were for detail-work only, not
something to paint a 180-foot long hull with. In the French navy at least,
the powers that be simply dumped X tons of the cheapest colours on the
captain, and more or less left him to do his worst with it. He was also
given the minimum amount of preussian blue and gold leaf for the
coat-of-arms only, as I recall from Boudriot's "the 74-gun ship". Anything
more, he'd have to fork out the money for it himself I guess.

I'd expect painting of ships to be a more or less continuous process (then
as now, I guess...), given the quality of paints available at the time. Even
the Atlantic liners, in the early 1900s, sometimes arrived in port after the
Atlantic crossing sans large areas of paint at the bows, it having been
stripped right off the hull during a single trip.

Staale Sannerud

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message ...
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

:Nah, I don't think that adds up.

So construct your case for why it doesn't.

:Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was dominated by
:the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the cost was
:more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).

Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
such....


But the historic situation was the direct salaries and food of only the sailors actually
on the ship. There was no overhead for training establishments, port facilities,
etc. It was just the actual crew on board the ship.

So, 7000 crew time $70,000 per year is $470,000,000. That's assuming
$45,000 for salary and $25,000 for benefits (which is the ratio for direct
and indirect benefits where I work).

Does the average sailor make $70,000 per year including benefits. I don't
think so, but I don't know. Remember, there are alot more at the bottom
rung than there are at the top.

But what does it cost to run a carrier plus air wing per year? I don't know.
What does the "shore establishment" cost? I don't know.

When I said "I've always assumed without evidence" that meant I was
just guessing and didn't really know the right numbers.

Cost of an Ancient Warship (Summary)
 

Here's a summary of the data about old-time ship construction I've gathered.
Much thanks to the people who helped add to this collection. Can anyone add more?

Unless stated otherwise, all prices are without weapons. For a normal
man-o-war the weapons might be 25% of the hull price give or take alot.
Sails might be the same amount.

A Greek Trireme in the ~400BCs cost ABOUT 5,000 drachma and the equipment
for it cost about 2,200 drachma. Each drachma is about a day's salary.
http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowi...me/thesis.html


A medium trader of 40 tons or more carring capacity must have cost about £100 when new
in 1580.

Prince Royal 1610, 114x43ft, 1330 tons, 55 guns:
Overall building cost was 20,000 pounds of which 441 went on carving and 868 7s on painting/guilding

Sovereign of the Seas 1637 of 169 foot on the gun deck and 1461 tons
http://www.kotiposti.net/felipe/England/england.html
Overall building cost 65,586 pounds 16s 9.5d (including guns)
of which 6,691 pounds on carving & decoration.

To build a 'bomb vessel' of about 100 feet in 1692 cost 2828 pounds which was about 120
man-years worth of salary for a skilled laboror, or 283 man-years for a common
sailor.

To build a "Third Rate" in 1692 would have cost about 22,000 pounds which is about
880 man-years salary (skilled) or 2,200 (common sailor)

In 1750 the Infernal bomb ship had a crew of 80 men and was ship-rigged at 96 ft long and 385
tons and cost about 3500 pounds. http://home.wnclink.com/russell/thunder.htm
which is the equivelent of 249,000 pounds in 2002.
http://eh.net/hmit/ppowerbp/pound_re...action=compare

The HMS Victory of 100 guns and 186 foot on the gun deck displacing 2126 tons
cost 63,176 pounds.

A Dainish 70 gunner in 1780 cost 187,000 reichsguilder or 3,000 man-years of
for an ordinary sailor including guns and sails.

A Danish 90-gunner in 1790 cost 212,700 reichsguilder or about 3,500 man-years
for an ordinary sailor including sails and bronze guns.

And the USS Constitution cost $302,718 in 1797 US dollars,
although the Brits could build a 74 gun ship for less.
It took something like 25,000 man-months to build a Constitution (or a British 74).
The Constitution was way over budget, which was only $100,00.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/s...nstitution.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Al...43/supfrig.htm

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

I think the title of this list is "rec.boats.building."

I suspect you may not know were you are.

If this thread has any relavance to building boats, then please carry on.
If not, take it to private e-mail.

You are boring the rest of us, with you endless prattle.

Fred

"Gregg Germain" wrote in message
...
In rec.boats.building Fred Williams wrote:
: Being an ex USN Sailor, I found this discussion semi interesting about
30
: messages ago, but your lack of direct service experience is beginning to
: wear on the thread, IMHO.

Just who exactly are you speaking to?

If me, how did you arrive at the conclusion that I have no direct
service experience?

: Is anyone involved in building a CVN? Will it be a "nuke"?

: I think I should point out the life expectancy of any CVN is
approximately
: 15 minutes in an encounter with any submarine, including the oldest in
: commision.

What has this to do with the discussion at hand? Is it possible you
are replying to the wrong thread?


: Maybe y'all should rethink your plans...

Maybe y'all better regain consciousness and realize where you
are.


: Former FTB2 (SS)
: US Submarine Service
: "We go down for money"

: "Gregg Germain" wrote in message
: ...
: In rec.boats.building Fred J. McCall wrote:
: : "Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
:
: : :Nah, I don't think that adds up.
:
: : So construct your case for why it doesn't.
:
: : :Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing was
: dominated by
: : :the saleries of the crew. I've always assumed without evidence the
: cost was
: : :more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).
:
: : Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
: : to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning
for
: : all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
: : such....
:
: yes and just paying them is not, I believe, the major cost these
: days. You have health care, various allowances, etc. And as you say
: all the suport personnel that are requried (service doctors,
: medicines, buildings, paperwork people, billeting people etc).
:
: Now it's true we take better care of our people than they did back
: then. But we have a much larger economy as well.
:
:
: --- Gregg
: "Improvise, adapt, overcome."
:
: Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
: Phone: (617) 496-1558
:



--


--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."

Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558

Cost of an Ancient Warship
 

In message , Fred J. McCall
writes
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:
:Finally, I would be suprised if the cost of a CVN with airwing
:was dominated by
:the saleries of the crew.

Single biggest cost over the carrier's life.

: I've always assumed without evidence the cost was
:more in parts and mainenence and fuel (for the planes).

Multiply it out. Rough grab of 7,000 crew. Just paying them amounts
to over 1/4 billion dollars per year. Now add in the cost manning for
all of the shore establishment that helps with maintenance and
such....

To add some hard numbers I turned up a while ago...

Predicted lifecycle costs for the REAGAN are that over a fifty-year
service life she'll cost $21,300 million dollars (at constant 1998
value). This cost relates only to the ship, not to her embarked air
wing.

Of that, her initial procurement price is only $4,300 million, or 20% of
the lifecycle cost. Crewing and maintenance through her life account for
over two-thirds of the total cost of ownership ($9.3bn): routine
maintenance clocks at $5.2bn, SLEP for $2bn and disposal for half a
billion.

The airwing won't be cheap, but you see the costs you're up against.
(You also see why crew-reduction is getting popular)
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk