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epoxy does so pass water
The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
Do you really believe that kind of storage is what the designer of the boat
recommended in his plans? Do you believe that kind of storage is intended on ANY boat, to left outside open side up in the weather. Do you leave your convertible out with the top down? For the intended usage of epoxy sheathed plywood boats, the claim of waterproof is valid. As long as the epoxy is not damaged in such a way as to allow water to reach the ply, it will stay dry. Bill "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
Everybody knows that epoxy is bad, very bad but plain wood is much better.
I heard that story of a guy using a blow torch on his stitch and glue boat and the thing caught fire! "Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. " The older the boat building technique the better. Do not trust resin or fiberglass, these are very dangerous products. Worms will eat polyester, glass will rot. You'll get cancer just from looking at resin and anyway, it would be a sin to make boat building easy and eliminate maintenance. Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment. No? -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
Six years ago my daughter build a Shellback sailboat.
All year round her boat is stored in from of her house on the edge of the LaHave river in Nova Scotia. During the winter its lay outside not covered. Sometime its full of snow and sometime its covered with snow and ice. I told her that she should cover her boat for better winter protection. She replied maybe I should. I look at her boat this last spring and its looks in pristine condition. Only the varnish had faded and needed to be done yearly but the paint is immaculate. The construction method she used is as follows" 1) Marine grade plywood saturated with thin coast of epoxy before cutting to size. 2) All cut out parts impregnated with epoxy before assembly. 3) 3 coats of epoxy after final assembly. 4) 3 coats of premium exterior house latex paint "Jacques Mertens" wrote in message .. . Everybody knows that epoxy is bad, very bad but plain wood is much better. I heard that story of a guy using a blow torch on his stitch and glue boat and the thing caught fire! "Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. " The older the boat building technique the better. Do not trust resin or fiberglass, these are very dangerous products. Worms will eat polyester, glass will rot. You'll get cancer just from looking at resin and anyway, it would be a sin to make boat building easy and eliminate maintenance. Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment. No? -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
"Jacques Mertens" ) writes:
Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment. don't you mean an old fashioned seal skin kayak? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
Epoxy is hydrophobic and permeability is very low. BUT it can slowly absorb water if left submerged for very long periods of time. I had a scarf on a rubrail bust once from the same thing...left out all winter in the rain, unprotected. The paint on the boat was topsides paint, not rated for submersion. I know polyester resin would've been far worse. As with any boat left in water (whether rain collecting in it or floating), an appropriate bottom paint should be used. And yes, I know how very tough it is to find a bottom paint that is legal to apply above the waterline. You have to find a non-antifouling bottom paint to be legal above the waterline. I've heard good things about Devoe 229, which is an industrial grade marine epoxy paint ...used on everything from offshore oil rigs to large commercial ships. The gloss is reasonably good, and the paint is very tough. Saw it first on a Tolman Widebody skiff in Homer, Alaska and the owners (and skiff designer Renn Tolman) were very happy with it. It's what I'm going to use on the boat that I'm building now ....a Tolman Jumbo. I live in Oregon and in spite of drains, water WILL collect in and on the boat. Interlux makes an epoxy paint rated for submersion also. It's called something like 'Progressive' ...you have to call them and ask for it. It doesn't show up in their catalog lists. Brian "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the freeze-thaw cycles? Let's also remember a couple other points: - A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the problem. - Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation would have prevented the problem. The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency on the part of the builder. -- Regards Brian |
epoxy does so pass water
old threads never die, they just unravel .... :)
in small boat projects by amateurs on the Internet you'll find lots and lots of references to brushing a coat of epoxy on plywood panels to seal them. paint and varnish are much cheaper, they are designed to dry smooth unlike epoxy, and they are just as waterproof as a coat of brushed on epoxy. epoxy has some sort of religious hold on amateur boatbuilders. they assume baptizing their boats with a coat of epoxy blesses the boats with impermeability and longevity. how's that kayak design going? Brian Nystrom ) writes: "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the freeze-thaw cycles? Let's also remember a couple other points: - A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the problem. - Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation would have prevented the problem. The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency on the part of the builder. -- Regards Brian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
"Freddie Richard" wrote in message ...
What would you use instead of epoxy? or what would you recommend? Nothing! The brunt of this discussion is that Epoxy is not a miracle cure all, it is however probably the best the average builder has available. The point is that Epoxy can be part of a process that will control water movement, but it is a team effort and it takes paint, fiberglass, proper preperation, proper application, some effort and thought of the builder, and of course dillagence (sp?) on the part of the owner. Scotty from SmallBoats.com -- Thank You, Freddie L. Richard "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
"Freddie Richard" ) writes:
What would you use instead of epoxy? or what would you recommend? on my small plywood boats I painted the exterior and used linseed oil on the interior. those boats are fastened with screwed and glued chine battens. its much cheaper to build that way. epoxy is too damned expensive and is not needed on small plywood boats in my opinion. besides you can't buy a 55 gal drum of epoxy to get a lower price if you're just building a kayak. waste of money. there are photos of my boats on my website. if you do use epoxy you have to also use fibreglass cloth. on big boats they recommend three layers of cloth and resin to "encapsulate" the boat. I've seen a single layer of cloth and epoxy resin on a kayak which didn't do much good at all. -- Thank You, Freddie L. Richard "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
William R. Watt ) writes:
.. if you do use epoxy you have to also use fibreglass cloth. on big boats they recommend three layers of cloth and resin to "encapsulate" the boat. I've seen a single layer of cloth and epoxy resin on a kayak which didn't do much good at all. I should add that once you get three layers of glass and epoxy on a plywood kayak you've got yourself a very heavy kayak. I'd just go with the plywood. However if you're building to someone else's design and it says use epoxy then you should use it. Make sure the finished weigth of the kayak is clearly stated in the plans. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
Correct. That post probably came from somebody who is prejudiced against
modern materials. If an epoxy boat is left out unpainted for years, the UV's will break down and problems will start. Do you know that those Abram's M1 tanks are very weak and unsafe? I heard that one was destroyed last week. See where those generalizations lead us? -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "Brian Nystrom" wrote in message ... "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the freeze-thaw cycles? Let's also remember a couple other points: - A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the problem. - Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation would have prevented the problem. The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency on the part of the builder. -- Regards Brian |
epoxy does so pass water
If you consider how many boats have been coated with epoxy, and how many
complaints of failure that you hear about, I'd say you have a very good chance that epoxy will work as advertised. In fact, failure due to water absorption is so rare, I'd lean towards blaming the builder/epoxy coater rather than the epoxy. Brian "Backyard Renegade" wrote in message om... "Freddie Richard" wrote in message ... What would you use instead of epoxy? or what would you recommend? Nothing! The brunt of this discussion is that Epoxy is not a miracle cure all, it is however probably the best the average builder has available. The point is that Epoxy can be part of a process that will control water movement, but it is a team effort and it takes paint, fiberglass, proper preperation, proper application, some effort and thought of the builder, and of course dillagence (sp?) on the part of the owner. Scotty from SmallBoats.com -- Thank You, Freddie L. Richard "William R. Watt" wrote in message ... The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted, froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
epoxy does so pass water
The point is that Epoxy can be part of a process that will
control water movement, but it is a team effort and it takes paint, fiberglass, proper preperation, proper application, some effort and thought of the builder, And proper storage of the final product doesn't hurt either :o). Greg Sefton |
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