I've been perusing some old boat plans, and have a question regarding the
sizes of boards. "Back in the day" when some of these plans were written,
lumber was actually the size it was sold to be. Now, a 1x4 may be as little
as 3 1/4 in. wide (as measured at local Lowe's home improvement center).
How does one compensate for this when building from old plans?

I was also apalled by the prices for REALLY knotty boards labelled as "top
choice". By the way, what is "white wood" anway??? Is good lumber really
that scarce? About 20 years ago I worked in home construction during the
summers, and even the cheapest boards we used as bracing were longer,
straighter, and a whole lot clearer than the junk I saw at Lowe's.

Russ B

Hi

"Russ B" skrev i en meddelelse
...

By the way, what is "white wood" anway???

Sab wood ?
The outher rings of quite a few species are useless for boat boulding , where
others species like spruce , you acturly prefere the sab (sap) wood .
With Oak the white wood will be the sab wood that you cut off in boat building.
Acturly chemical wood protection, was kind of invented to make the whole tree
usefull including the useless sabwood.
P.C.
( don't hope that word have a particular other meaning ,as with english as
second language I would not know)

Uhhh "sab wood" is actually "sap wood" and sap wood is typically considered
the "juvenile" wood that makes up the outer "skin" of a tree (the layers
just under the bark) whose purpose is to carry sap to the canopy. Heartwood
is found nearer the center of the tree and does not carry wood and as such,
tends to be far more stable and darker in colour. "typical" hardwood found
in boats/fine furniture is heartwood. Regardless, that's not what "white
wood" is.

White wood is a mix of whatever softwood the mill happens to be running at
that time. Pine, fir, hemlock, balsam etc....all are classified as white
wood. As for boat building/repairing and Lowes/Home Depot, don't mix them.
The lumber you get at any big-box will simply not be suitable for marine
use. Actually, it's rarely suitable for anything other than fence building
and even that's questionable..

If you need to purchase wood for marine repairs, do so from a reputable
supplier of product designed/procured for that purpose. If none are in your
neighborhood, there are many good sources via the mail. Here's a great place
to start.

http://www.woodfinder.com/

Good luck
Rob

"P.C." wrote in message
k...
Hi

"Russ B" skrev i en meddelelse
...

By the way, what is "white wood" anway???

Sab wood ?
The outher rings of quite a few species are useless for boat boulding ,
where
others species like spruce , you acturly prefere the sab (sap) wood .
With Oak the white wood will be the sab wood that you cut off in boat
building.
Acturly chemical wood protection, was kind of invented to make the whole
tree
usefull including the useless sabwood.
P.C.
( don't hope that word have a particular other meaning ,as with english as
second language I would not know)

Hi

"Rob Stokes" skrev i en meddelelse
s.com...

Pine, fir, hemlock, balsam etc....

Ok I se, but each specie have specific ability , Oak is not best suieted for a
boat deck and Spruce , or fastgrown Douglas also in specific use be the best
specie for that.
My argument is, that I rather se a mixed Ash , Oak forest mixed other leaf
trees, but to do so, Chipwood sheets from fast grown forest groth is the best
protection of the species left. From a Design stand point, things just get
easyer with worse sheet than Douglas, ------- still Chipwood can be produced
from straw ,producing just the right material for Digital use, sheet material.
Protect the forest ,produce what technology provide and this reduce the demand
for Timber. Today Timbers are all about strait frame and sheet material anyway
so why not protect the good use of the Forest we humans have. Still
Boatbuilding is not the only craft, that made profit of 3D calculations
Carpenters even would say a boat, with crossing members of wood that expand and
scrink, must not be done as in a boat, ------------------- sort of the
difference between a boatbuilder and a Carpenter. Guess you can be both . Still
a Boatbuilder must have a different Vision doing boat hulls in wood, that's
nothing but planks, ribs and nails.
Still if industries can't se the direction technology is providing the Oak and
Ash will suffer so will the Redwood and the tropical , on Borneo in the 30'
there was 4000 species of "Mahogony" , we boatbuilders was responsable to know
what from what.
Still if anyone want to make money today, it's out of the Pyramides, and se a
promise of a bright future, jobs and progress.
Due new obvious technology, protecting homeland Forest with top technology .
3D-H provide a nice cutting edge technology to provide 3D structures from sheet
material please follow the links and you wioll se that with the options in
Digital production and standard sheet materials , you can still find new
designs. Highrise like WTC one and two proberly would not be rebuild in the
same way, but if what is build must point to the future, it is my oppinion ,that
the Design must some way carry this promise of a bright future, protecting the
Oak and Ash trees is enough reson for me, Anyway please check a few links if
3D-H and direct link production methods sound interesting ;

http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2663.html
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2648.html
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2649.html
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2647.html

Now if you ask the modern paralell for a small house ,in the framework 3D-H
provide as an assembly for a Cabin at a third the cost, four times as strong, in
steel sheet assembly framework full scale ,an assembly house if this is what you
want but be aware it cheap and good ;

http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2573.html

Click her ;
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2577.html

P.C.
Reson Dinusaurs get rusty is that they are made out of steel.

The good wood you and I remember from years ago was from big trees.
Those have mostly been cut down years ago, and the rest are in
protected areas so our grandkids will believe us when we tell them
that we had spruce and fir trees ten feet in diameter. Clear-cutting
practices leave us with a lot of small trees (the larger stuff is
either shipped to Japan or made into plywood), and small trees are
full of knots throughout their length, unlike the really tall ones
that had no branches in their lower reaches. Shoot, I've seen
two-by-fours that had bark on all four corners. We're getting
desperate.
In aircraft homebuilding, we buy wood from the aircraft suppliers.
It's really expensive, and getting worse all the time. Most builders
are switching to composite or aluminum. For boats, I have sought out
the smaller, friendly lumberyards (try the small towns) and those
fellas will often let you pick through the stuff to find better wood.
For my son's Squirt, we have found decent spruce and pine in
two-by-eights, since they have to come from larger trees, and we've
been able to rip them up to get the clear lengths we need. Some wooden
airplanes are still built this way.
There has been a "synthetic" wood developed that shows promise. By
cutting trees into long, slender slivers, like long toothpicks, and
laying them into moulds and adding waterproof binders, a clear, strong
(but a bit heavier) lumber is produced. I haven't seen it yet, but
there has been debate among aircraft homebuilders about trying it.
It's disadvantages are the weight, a tendency to fail suddenly when
overstressed, and the cost, although I imagine it would be much
cheaper than aircraft-grade spruce.

Dan

What are the dates on these plans? If they are after 1940 (or so) they
are (most likely) for "nominal sized" lumber... i.e. a 2x4 is 1.5-1.625
x 3.5-3.625.

As others have stated, good wood just doesn't exist (or isn't allowed to
be cut) anymore. Something to do with depletion of natural resources.
If you take your time, you can find good boards. I've had to go through
10 bundles of 1x6 (about 100 boards) to find 6 good boards but they are
there.

Ed

Russ B wrote:
I've been perusing some old boat plans, and have a question regarding the
sizes of boards. "Back in the day" when some of these plans were written,
lumber was actually the size it was sold to be. Now, a 1x4 may be as little
as 3 1/4 in. wide (as measured at local Lowe's home improvement center).
How does one compensate for this when building from old plans?

I was also apalled by the prices for REALLY knotty boards labelled as "top
choice". By the way, what is "white wood" anway??? Is good lumber really
that scarce? About 20 years ago I worked in home construction during the
summers, and even the cheapest boards we used as bracing were longer,
straighter, and a whole lot clearer than the junk I saw at Lowe's.

Russ B

"Russ B" writes:

Snip some observations.

About 20 years ago I worked in home construction during the
summers, and even the cheapest boards we used as bracing were longer,
straighter, and a whole lot clearer than the junk I saw at Lowe's.

Maybe this will put it in perspective.

I'm building a fiberglass boat. I also buy a lot of construction grade
lumber from Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

I use this lumber to build forms for the fiberglass.

It is a one shot deal.

Think back to your days in construction and the wooden forms required for
concrete.

Same-o, same-o.

You go to there garbage store to buy garbage materials for a garbage job.

You want to build a boat, that's not garbage is used.

You buy full size quality rough lumber such as Honderous Mahogany, finish it
as req'd, and like the gambler, you don't cry when it's time to settle up.

HTH

A rough cut 2x4 from the saw mill is 2x4. After kiln drying and planing,
its 1.5 x 3.5. They arn't cheating you, that's just the way it is.
Suitable wood for your project depends specifically on what your project
is. I have found totally clear, white spruce 2x10's at Home Depot but
they are rare. I pulled these aside when buying lumber for the house.
Now they are a mast on a small sailboat.
The gunwales on my Adirondack Guideboat are old growth douglas fir,
industrial grade flooring salvaged from an old factory.
Here in Vermont you can still buy pretty good White Cedar planks but
they are hard to find. I own 10 acres of woods and have a bunch of
Tamarack trees, the bottom of which make pretty nice small boat stems,
if you don't mind grubbing them out of the dirt and roughing them out
with a chain saw. An awful lot of work. A local saw mill has
occasionally had some black
locust boards, great for light steam bent ribs.
The problem with wood is that people are so removed from the source
that they think they can just go down to Lowes and buy wood that
the guy working there has never even heard of. White Wood, Hem Fir, etc
are an insult to the intelligence of a craftsman.
You have to get in touch with your materials if you want to build a
boat. Wood comes from trees, not Lowes.
One way to deal with the wood problem when building an older design is
to adapt the design to epoxy/strip built construction where the wood is
cut into smaller stips, the bad parts culled out, and glued back together.
Regarding lumber grades..I think most states establish standard grading
rules that dealers must follow or they are liable for misrepresentation
and fraud. There are seperate grading standards for hard woods and soft
woods. For instance, a white pine board that is Graded SELECT can have
no more than one knot on the face. If it's nine feet long, its counted
as 8 ft long. Sellers violate the rules all the time and negotiating a
fair price for locally produced lumber is kinda like dealing with a new
car dealer.


Russ B wrote:
I've been perusing some old boat plans, and have a question regarding the
sizes of boards. "Back in the day" when some of these plans were written,
lumber was actually the size it was sold to be. Now, a 1x4 may be as little
as 3 1/4 in. wide (as measured at local Lowe's home improvement center).
How does one compensate for this when building from old plans?

I was also apalled by the prices for REALLY knotty boards labelled as "top
choice". By the way, what is "white wood" anway??? Is good lumber really
that scarce? About 20 years ago I worked in home construction during the
summers, and even the cheapest boards we used as bracing were longer,
straighter, and a whole lot clearer than the junk I saw at Lowe's.

Russ B