Fiberglassing my daggerboard?
 

I would like to drill a couple holes in my mahogany daggerboard (on a 13'
boat) and fill them with lead.
Although I am sure the boat can handle it, I am not so sure about the
daggerboard. I am thinking of sanding an 1/8" of an inch off it all around
(or maybe routing it, that should be more precise and faster...) and
wrapping it with fiberglass; a couple inches further up than the lead. It
seems to me that a few pounds of lead at the end of the daggerboard ought to
add significant stability to a small boat.
I figure the fiberglass will add more strength than the holes take away.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about these things, so it is entirely
possible I am overlooking something that will make this a stupid project.
(I have lost 8 pounds this year, and plan to lose some more; so I am not
concerned about the effect of a few pounds of lead on the boat.)

A few pounds of lead added to to your daggerboard on a 13' boat will not
make any significant difference in stability. Hiking out about a
quarter-inch farther will do more for the boat's stability than any
reasonable amount of lead would do.

The reason people used to add lead to centerboards and daggerboards was just
to counteract the buoyancy of the wood, and to keep them from floating up in
the slot.

If you want to do something more useful, shape the daggerboard into a really
accurate NACA foil cross-section. Do the same with your rudder. If the
cross-section of those two foils is kind of crude now, you'll be amazed at
the difference.

Tom Dacon

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I would like to drill a couple holes in my mahogany daggerboard (on a 13'
boat) and fill them with lead.
Although I am sure the boat can handle it, I am not so sure about the
daggerboard. I am thinking of sanding an 1/8" of an inch off it all
around
(or maybe routing it, that should be more precise and faster...) and
wrapping it with fiberglass; a couple inches further up than the lead. It
seems to me that a few pounds of lead at the end of the daggerboard ought
to
add significant stability to a small boat.
I figure the fiberglass will add more strength than the holes take away.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about these things, so it is entirely
possible I am overlooking something that will make this a stupid project.
(I have lost 8 pounds this year, and plan to lose some more; so I am not
concerned about the effect of a few pounds of lead on the boat.)

I'd suggest that the lead will be useful, mainly, for keeping the
daggerboard from floating up. On a small boat, the crew's weight is so much
larger that any moment supplied by the lead will be hard to see (unless you
want the boat to be able to sail away without you like my Sunfish did).

I think you're right about the fiberglass skin being more than adequate for
any lost strength. The material in the middle of a beam is there mainly to
keep the edges apart, and the lead won't compress. You might want to
calculate the areas for various schemes. One slightly larger hole will have
as much area/volume as two smaller holes and it will be easier to key the
edges to hold the lead.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
"John Smith" wrote in message
...
I would like to drill a couple holes in my mahogany daggerboard (on a 13'
boat) and fill them with lead.
Although I am sure the boat can handle it, I am not so sure about the
daggerboard. I am thinking of sanding an 1/8" of an inch off it all
around
(or maybe routing it, that should be more precise and faster...) and
wrapping it with fiberglass; a couple inches further up than the lead. It
seems to me that a few pounds of lead at the end of the daggerboard ought
to
add significant stability to a small boat.
I figure the fiberglass will add more strength than the holes take away.
I am not particularly knowledgeable about these things, so it is entirely
possible I am overlooking something that will make this a stupid project.
(I have lost 8 pounds this year, and plan to lose some more; so I am not
concerned about the effect of a few pounds of lead on the boat.)

"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
...
A few pounds of lead added to to your daggerboard on a 13' boat will not
make any significant difference in stability. Hiking out about a
quarter-inch farther will do more for the boat's stability than any
reasonable amount of lead would do.

The reason people used to add lead to centerboards and daggerboards was
just
to counteract the buoyancy of the wood, and to keep them from floating up
in
the slot.

Well, there's that too; it does tend to float up a 2 or 3 inches unless the
side pressure is enough to keep it down.

If you want to do something more useful, shape the daggerboard into a
really
accurate NACA foil cross-section. Do the same with your rudder. If the
cross-section of those two foils is kind of crude now, you'll be amazed at
the difference.

Thats one thing I will say for the boat; both daggerboard and rudder have
great cross-sections. Don't know why it (Starwing) was a failure; the
workmanship is very good..

Don't know what the numbers are for this case, but the Sunfish is a pretty
good boat, and with well over 500,000 kicking around, it's easy to find a
"class" race or a replacement part. Market timing???

What does the Starwing weigh? Every year some new graduate of our sailing
class would buy a ??? (Sunfish knockoff), sail it for the season, discover
that it weighed twice what the Sunfish did, and sell it. That particular
boat changed hands some six times in the four years I was sailing there. It
only looked like it would be competitive.

My fat belly meant that the 19 year olds would get up on a plane some ten or
twenty feet before I did and stay on for an additional distance when the
wind faltered. Of course they also could also hike out further and stay
there longer.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
"John Smith" wrote in message
...

Don't know why it (Starwing) was a failure; the
workmanship is very good..

What does the Starwing weigh?

Starwing is a completely different animal. It has a lot of sail (the number
escapes me at the moment) for a boat it's size, with a main and jib. It is
very narrow at the water line, but then swells out broadly above (I figure
that is the "wing"). The wood is all mahagony, and everything is done very
nicely. The fiberglass is very thin, and the boat is light.

At least it was until I "fixed" it. I got it really cheap because it had
cracks in both sides from rough trailering. Since I don't plan on
trailering it ever, I put some fiberglass over the cracks and it is fine
now; if a bit heavier.
Frankly though, I am not much of a sailor, and I couldn't handle it in winds
over 5mph; it was just too responsive and would capsize in a gust before I
knew what happened. It is much better now with a few pounds of new
fiberglass.

However, last week I took it out in 10-15 winds, but headed home when the
winds picked up. Before I could get home a huge gust too it over, despite
my hiking out as far as I could go. I am hoping some weight in the
daggerboard will add a small cushion.

John Smith wrote:
"Tom Dacon" wrote in message
The reason people used to add lead to centerboards and daggerboards was
just
to counteract the buoyancy of the wood, and to keep them from floating up
in
the slot.

Well, there's that too; it does tend to float up a 2 or 3 inches unless the
side pressure is enough to keep it down.

I had a Sailfish that had a short piece of rope that you would secure
over the top of the daggerboard to keep it from floating up. I also
don't think what you propose with thw lead would show any results
comparable to the effort.Sam

On rec.woodworking, I asked about how to drill the holes parallel to the
sides. Someone suggested going in with a hole saw through the sides. That
will weaken the board, but done down low where there is no torque, that
should not matter; expecially if I go over it with fiberglass. And I could
get in more lead.
I suppose my concern there would be after a capsize, when I pulling down on
the board to get the boat back up I would be putting a lot of force on a
weakened area. Hmm..

I know I can't get in enough weight to make it self-righting or anything
like that, but just giving me a little more time to react to gusts would be
nice.

A piece of shock cord from the top of the daggerboard forward and down to
some point on the boat will keep it from floating up in the slot.

Letting out the mainsheet to dump wind will do more for stability than
adding lead to the daggerboard.

Can you reef the sail? Can you add reef points to the sail? Can you wrap
some sail around the mast? Reducing the size of the sail will reduce its
power.

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One should never (hardly ever?) capsize on a beat or a reach. Running
downwind is a different question.

DO NOT CLEAT THE MAIN SHEET FAST. Letting it run in a gust depowers the
sail.

DO NOT TAKE YOUR HAND OFF THE TILLER. Heading up in a gust depowers the
sail. (And gains distance to windward when beating.)

Reducing sail makes life easier, but if you have the sheet free and are
ready to head up with a quick twitch of the tiller, you can unload
instantly. Hiking out is good for boat speed, but not required to avoid a
capsize.

My Sunfish came from the factory with a simple hook on the front center of
the cockpit. Someone had replaced this with a cam cleat, but that's too
risky. I put back the hook. Since I'm lazy, I added clam cleats on each of
the side decks. On a beat or reach these are right under my hand and I can
free the sheet in an instant. Note that's cam = bad and clam = good.

Running down wind is risky. If you have too much sail up you should
consider tacking down wind.

Remember, with the Sunfish we're talking 90+ square feet of sail on a 150 lb
boat that has no reef points and no ballast. Not as "responsive" as a wind
surfer, but it can get exciting. Running before a squall line once I
actually had a rooster tail from the rudder. I didn't capsize but when I
tried to round up and come about to fetch the finish line I slid off into
the water and it sailed away without me. (Didn't matter since the committee
boat broke its anchor rode, the safety boat pitch poled, and those that
didn't capsize ran way up on the shore.)

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Toller" wrote in message
...
snip
Frankly though, I am not much of a sailor, and I couldn't handle it in
winds
over 5mph; it was just too responsive and would capsize in a gust before I
knew what happened. It is much better now with a few pounds of new
fiberglass.

However, last week I took it out in 10-15 winds, but headed home when the
winds picked up. Before I could get home a huge gust too it over, despite
my hiking out as far as I could go. I am hoping some weight in the
daggerboard will add a small cushion.

DO NOT TAKE YOUR HAND OFF THE TILLER. Heading up in a gust depowers the
sail. (And gains distance to windward when beating.)

Reducing sail makes life easier, but if you have the sheet free and are
ready to head up with a quick twitch of the tiller, you can unload
instantly. Hiking out is good for boat speed, but not required to avoid a
capsize.

by "heading up" he means pushing the tiller away from you as if you were
tacking. :)


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The lead won't help at all.
You have to mold the bottom two-thirds of the board in lead to even feel
a difference, and would not stop a knock down like you describe. It
would make the boat take on roughly twice the added ballast weight
(assumption of typical dingy/daysailor) in water to unload when you try
to right it.

Learn to sail the boat with just enough grip on the main to keep it
trim. Don't lock is down ever. When the wind hits let the main flog
and sail on the jib hold maintain control. That is what you do with
every other "too much sail" dink (the list is long).

Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Pathological Sailor
(of Scotts, Interlakes, Lightnings, Interclub dingys, Sailfish
[not-Sun], Rebels and many other classes)


Toller wrote:
What does the Starwing weigh?


Starwing is a completely different animal. It has a lot of sail (the number
escapes me at the moment) for a boat it's size, with a main and jib. It is
very narrow at the water line, but then swells out broadly above (I figure
that is the "wing"). The wood is all mahagony, and everything is done very
nicely. The fiberglass is very thin, and the boat is light.

At least it was until I "fixed" it. I got it really cheap because it had
cracks in both sides from rough trailering. Since I don't plan on
trailering it ever, I put some fiberglass over the cracks and it is fine
now; if a bit heavier.
Frankly though, I am not much of a sailor, and I couldn't handle it in winds
over 5mph; it was just too responsive and would capsize in a gust before I
knew what happened. It is much better now with a few pounds of new
fiberglass.

However, last week I took it out in 10-15 winds, but headed home when the
winds picked up. Before I could get home a huge gust too it over, despite
my hiking out as far as I could go. I am hoping some weight in the
daggerboard will add a small cushion.

William,

He doesn't stand a snowball's chance.

The boat carries a jib, so he can't do that trick at all. Not to
mention that pulling a reef in under in a small boat just isn't going to
happen (experience speaking here).

He need to learn to dump the main strap in the jib in and head up under
the weather breaks.

Matt Colie

William R. Watt wrote:

A piece of shock cord from the top of the daggerboard forward and down to
some point on the boat will keep it from floating up in the slot.

Letting out the mainsheet to dump wind will do more for stability than
adding lead to the daggerboard.

Can you reef the sail? Can you add reef points to the sail? Can you wrap
some sail around the mast? Reducing the size of the sail will reduce its
power.

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"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
William,

He doesn't stand a snowball's chance.

The boat carries a jib, so he can't do that trick at all. Not to
mention that pulling a reef in under in a small boat just isn't going to
happen (experience speaking here).

He need to learn to dump the main strap in the jib in and head up under
the weather breaks.

What does that mean? In retrospect I probably could have dropped the main
and sailed home with just the jib.

Matt Colie

William R. Watt wrote:

A piece of shock cord from the top of the daggerboard forward and down
to
some point on the boat will keep it from floating up in the slot.

Letting out the mainsheet to dump wind will do more for stability than
adding lead to the daggerboard.

The main was out almost to the point of fluttering when it happened.
Perhaps there was a wind shift with the gust; that is pretty common here.

Can you reef the sail? Can you add reef points to the sail? Can you wrap
some sail around the mast? Reducing the size of the sail will reduce its
power.

The sail has reef points, but I don't go out when the wind is that strong,
and there is no way to reef it if the wind picks up.
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Toller,

I'm glad you asked.

I was telling Willian, that there is no chance you, I or anyone I've
ever known could reef a little boat under deteriorating conditions.
The wrap the mast trick used on a few small boats can't work because the
head stray will prevent a smooth wrap of the mast.

And - Yes this is a skil you should learn.
If you run (release) the main halyard, the boom will fall and the sail
will be loose. This is not a workable situation. If you can maintain
way enough for control, you will not be able to bring the boat about.
The mainsail will end up overboard and that will stop you pretty fast.
You may also get beat up by the boom and sail trashing around on top
of you.

Your thought - though - is mostly correct, but unload the main by
running (releasing) the sheet (yes - the main will get flogged - sorry).
You might also trim the jib about as flat as you can to carry you as
close to the wind as possible. We are talking about little boat
survival sailing here and style points don't count until you are safe.
It is important that you maintain enough headway to have control of the
boat, because as soon as you do not have control the weather will.

You DO want to run into the wind. It is less likely to get you into
trouble because you can go back during the lulls.

Enjoy the boat, I'm here a lot if I can help at all

Matt Colie


Toller wrote:
"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...

William,

He doesn't stand a snowball's chance.

The boat carries a jib, so he can't do that trick at all. Not to
mention that pulling a reef in under in a small boat just isn't going to
happen (experience speaking here).

He need to learn to dump the main strap in the jib in and head up under
the weather breaks.


What does that mean? In retrospect I probably could have dropped the main
and sailed home with just the jib.


Matt Colie

William R. Watt wrote:


A piece of shock cord from the top of the daggerboard forward and down

to

some point on the boat will keep it from floating up in the slot.

Letting out the mainsheet to dump wind will do more for stability than
adding lead to the daggerboard.


The main was out almost to the point of fluttering when it happened.
Perhaps there was a wind shift with the gust; that is pretty common here.


Can you reef the sail? Can you add reef points to the sail? Can you wrap
some sail around the mast? Reducing the size of the sail will reduce its
power.


The sail has reef points, but I don't go out when the wind is that strong,
and there is no way to reef it if the wind picks up.

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The time to reef is before the wind gets too strong. Think of it as
defensive driving. You can sit hove to while reefing. To heave to backwind
the jib and push the tiller right out away from you.

I too think its a better idea to drop the main rather than the jib to
reduce sail in strong wind. That's because the mast is held up by the jib.
There is usually also a forestay but it may only be there to hold the mast up
when not sailing. Sometimes it's strong enough to allow sailing with the
mainsail alone in strong winds but I've seen dingy's where the bottom of a
steel cable forestay is only tied to the boat with a bit of string.
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William R. Watt ) writes:
The time to reef is before the wind gets too strong. Think of it as
defensive driving. You can sit hove to while reefing. To heave to backwind
the jib and push the tiller right out away from you.

BTW these are good things to practice when out for a pleasure sail. For
reefing you can try it with the boat in shallow water or tied to a dock
first. The reef points will probably tie underneath the boom. Sail the boat
with the sail reefed a few times to get used to it. Then sail the boat
reefed at the begining of each season as a refresher. Besides the winds
are usually stronger at the beginning of the season.

You can heave a boat to anytime to clean up, make adjustments, or just to
relax and have a snack. Whole dingy fleets sit hove to waiting for enough
wind to start races at regattas. I've done that, joining others swimming
off their boats while waiting.

You should also learn to tie all your sailor knots one-handed, eyes closed,
while someone tosses buckets of water in your face. :)
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I was under the impression, suggested by 2 experiences, that the jib
alone was sort of a mistake as it moved the center of effort (of the
sails) in front of the centerboard and counteracted the rudder giving
the opposite of weather helm, which is the tendency of the boat to turn
into the wind when the rudder is let loose. As to the original post of
adding lead to make the boat less tippy, if you made the whole
centerboard out of lead, that might help, but I think what would serve
you better is to pay more attention to the ripples indicating gusts of
wind and to be alert and move quickly as small sailboats are tender.
You adjusting to it will probably be more worthwhile than adjusting it
to you. One thing you might possibly do though is install a foot strap
to give you more control while hiking in and out. Sam

A nit maybe, but maybe confusing -- "running" refers to a point of sailing
where you are blowing downwind. The sail is not working as an airfoil.
When one is heading into the wind, or reaching across it, the sail is an
airfoil. The only difference between reaching and beating (or "sailing full
and by" or "tacking" or ... ) is that when you are reaching, the bow is
pointed where you want to go. Beating to windward is a technique for
getting upwind from where you are by zig-zagging across the wind.

"Full and by" -- order to helmsman to keep the sail(s) full and set one's
direction by the wind's direction. The boom should never be brought further
inboard than the corner of the transom.

To "depower" the sail safely one lets it luff (flap at the edge next to the
mast). It's somewhat hard on the sail if kept up too long, but it's better
than capsizing. The bow of the boat needs to be pointing closer than ninety
degrees to the wind's source. (One can luff when on a broad reach, but it's
too easy to end up on a run (see below). Move the tiller to head up into
the wind, then luff.)

Running before the wind is dangerous and jibing and/or broaching is very
easy when running. If you broach, you will probably capsize. If you jibe,
either you will probably break part of the boat or the head of someone in
the cockpit. If you are running downwind and the sail lifts (starts to come
toward you -- beginning of a jibe), meet the boom with the tiller, NOW.
Running demands more attention from the helmsman than any other point of
sail, but it feels so safe and easy because the boat's speed reduces the
apparent wind.

Note that the amount of sheet trim is dependent on the point of sail.
Beating, one can make a significant difference with an inch or two of trim.
Running, the sheet adjustments are measured in feet.

A somewhat advanced skill is sailing backwards. If the boat is moving thru
the water stern first, point the RUDDER where you want the stern to go.
(This is usually the opposite of the tiller.) This is useful if you get
caught "in irons;" i.e. pointed into the wind without enough forward speed
to carry you on thru onto the other tack. One should not use this too close
to rocks or anchored boats. Practice in light airs.

If you want to drop the sail, first turn the boat's bow into the wind. Then
release the halyard. If the sail/boom goes into the water, it becomes a
very effective sea anchor and steering is impossible. It's a kerfluffle
either way, but if the sail can be kept in the boat, you have a chance of
controlling it.

Rig one or more "tell tales" to let you see the direction of the apparent
wind. I make mine out of stainless fishing leader and discarded cassette
tapes. A lifetime supply of tape can usually be found by the side of the
road within a very short drive. One telltale goes on the mast head for
running. Two more go on either side of the boat for reaching. (The one on
the masthead quickly generates a stiff neck.)

Note sailing in very light airs demands much more skill than sailing with a
decent breeze. It's harder to tell the difference between the true and the
apparent wind, and it's easy to mistake a lull for a header.

Keep at it. You'll never learn it all, but once things begin to fall into
place, it's the best way to live.

Roger

http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Your thought - though - is mostly correct, but unload the main by running
(releasing) the sheet (yes - the main will get flogged - sorry). You might
also trim the jib about as flat as you can to carry you as close to the
wind as possible. We are talking about little boat survival sailing here
and style points don't count until you are safe. It is important that you
maintain enough headway to have control of the boat, because as soon as
you do not have control the weather will.

You DO want to run into the wind. It is less likely to get you into
trouble because you can go back during the lulls.

you better is to pay more attention to the ripples indicating gusts of
wind and to be alert and move quickly as small sailboats are tender.

I used to sail a 16' with a friend and he would warn me of gusts and wind
shifts by the water ripples. I just can't see the darn things. Obviously
it is a skill I have to develop!

He also drives at 85mph, steering with his knees while opening food
packages; skis straight down black diamonds; and free climbs 40' shale
cliffs. I can't do those either.

On 27 Aug 2005 22:46:50 GMT, William R. Watt said:

DO NOT TAKE YOUR HAND OFF THE TILLER. Heading up in a gust depowers the
sail. (And gains distance to windward when beating.)

Reducing sail makes life easier, but if you have the sheet free and are
ready to head up with a quick twitch of the tiller, you can unload
instantly. Hiking out is good for boat speed, but not required to avoid a
capsize.

by "heading up" he means pushing the tiller away from you as if you were
tacking. :)

A manoeuvre also known as "luffing".

--Damian

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:06:15 GMT, Toller said:
...
He also drives at 85mph, steering with his knees while opening food
packages; skis straight down black diamonds; and free climbs 40' shale
cliffs. I can't do those either.

Heck, I'd do those things, if the event of them going wrong did not turn
my wife into a widow and me into a smear on the road/slope/cliff.

Doing this stuff doesn't indicate skill so much as indifference to the
consequences of failure.

--Damian

"Damian James" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:06:15 GMT, Toller said:
...
He also drives at 85mph, steering with his knees while opening food
packages; skis straight down black diamonds; and free climbs 40' shale
cliffs. I can't do those either.

Heck, I'd do those things, if the event of them going wrong did not turn
my wife into a widow and me into a smear on the road/slope/cliff.

Doing this stuff doesn't indicate skill so much as indifference to the
consequences of failure.

Well, he has been doing them for 55 years. That must indicate some degree
of skill.
But you are right; I am a better skier, but can't keep up with him because I
won't risk the consequences.
But on the other hand (isn't there always another hand) being relaxed
(being indifferent to the consequences) radically improves capabilities.