Thinning epoxy barrier coat
 

Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am thinking of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Robert or Karen Swarts wrote:
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am thinking of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.


Denatured alcohol (stove fuel) is the standard epoxy thinner.

About 5% max works for me.

Lew

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:32:13 -0700, "Robert or Karen Swarts"
wrote:

Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am thinking of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

The question is debatable. Some say you should not thin epoxy. I don't
know what you are doing. Can't say.

Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications. The
directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but
I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Hi

Before using that please note that a lot of Denatured alcohol , acturly
contain up to 8 pct. water.
Now there are many way's to take out the water, carbide the stuff that
was used in old acetylen lamps are one of the most eficient , but there
proberly are other chemicals that will react with the water and leave
the alcohol , ---- it is the same problem with frensh polishing , that
you must find Denatured alcohol 99.9 pct alcohol to get the best
results normal Denatured alcohol acturly contain water.

I'm jumping in on this late, so forgive me if I'm off track ..I just saw the
reference to 404/414 Barrier Kote from Interlux, my favorite primer, and it
looks like there's some controversy on what it is. The reason that it's
called Epoxy Barrier Kote is because some coatings, paint that is, get
unhappy with leftover amines and what not on cured epoxy. To paint the
epoxy with such a paint, alkyd enamels for example, you need to sand, wash,
and prime the epoxy with an appropriate barrier coat that sticks well to
epoxy and provides a good substrate that he paint also sticks well to. The
Interlux 404/414 Barrier Kote (stinky but good) makes a very good primer for
protecting paints from epoxy chemistry that might still be on the boat, and
it's very high body (hides defects) and sands well too. Like I said, stinky
but good. Keep the doors open.

Brian D



"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but
I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

Bob Swarts

When thinned as directed, 404/414 is very porous and only prevents the
passage of bacteria and up. 404/414 is not a barrier coating in the sense
that it prevents osmotic blistering ('pox'). Not the usual meaning of
'barrier coat', in spite of interlux's labelling. The Interlux product for
that is Interprotect 2000. . Being epoxy-based, it provides good
mechanical bond for oher finishes.
"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The
directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but
I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently evaporates
too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out well. So --
more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with persistence, fills --
or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the resin base. It dries
quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually using it as a primer under
Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application, but
I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60 miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Unfortunate terms ...what would you call a primer that's designed to act as
a chemical barrier between alkyd enamel and amines on epoxy?

As a point of information, I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with a
paint expert (working for Ameron) once and he explained that topsides paints
work by blocking moisture in the short term but were unable to block it in
the long term. If kept in the water, moisture could get underneath it
eventually, but then not be able to get back out quickly enough to prevent
blistering when heated by the sun. Below the waterline paints he explained,
were designed to allow moisture to flow in and out more easily and this
prevented blistering ...but required a waterproof substrate instead. I'm
confused because I would guess that waterproofness was what determined if a
paint was for below the waterline or not. Or maybe he was implying that
there was no truly waterproof paints? Maybe Awlgrip or Sterling? Anyone??

Brian


"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
When thinned as directed, 404/414 is very porous and only prevents the
passage of bacteria and up. 404/414 is not a barrier coating in the sense
that it prevents osmotic blistering ('pox'). Not the usual meaning of
'barrier coat', in spite of interlux's labelling. The Interlux product
for
that is Interprotect 2000. . Being epoxy-based, it provides good
mechanical bond for oher finishes.
"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The
directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but
I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

In the case of the 404/414, the can is labeled in bold print "Epoxy
Barrier-Kote".

In the case of Interlux's Epiglass epoxy, the ad in Boaters World catalog
describes it as a two-part, high build primer suitable as a coating where
gelcoat has been removed. I called Boaters World and they assured me the ad
was written by Interlux. I called Interlux's tech line and they said that
was not an appropriate application and didn't understand why it was
described as such.

Neither organization seemed much concerned with correcting matters when I
pointed out it would be a good idea. Boaters World, however, did refund the
purchase price of the Epiglass even though it was partly used.

BS

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been described as applicable to things I later found out they were not
truly suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

To me, 'barrier coat' means a coating intended to be seriously impermable in
continuous immersion and an effective barrier against osmotic blistering. I
don't think that there's disagreement that 404/414 is an OK primer under LPU
paints for topsides and intermittent immersion. One thing it's not is
impermeable. It's so loaded with solvents that it's quite porous.
The best guide is the pamphlets published by the paint manufacturers. In
them, they do a pretty good job of descrtibing the 'systems' of coatings,
from bottom to top. They're not ambiguous.


"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And
the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

I guess the word 'epoxy' in the name can be taken to mean that it *is* epoxy
and is therefore waterproof (albeit not always true either) and works as a
barrier to water ...and it can be taken to mean that it provides a barrier
to the epoxy itself so that certain paint (or other primer) chemistries will
work on the boat. I always took it the second way, but that's probably
because I never keep a boat in the water ...I'm a trailer sailor and can't
afford the upkeep and annual hauling in/out fees that go along with keeping
a boat in the water. At least not yet ...grinz.

Brian



"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
To me, 'barrier coat' means a coating intended to be seriously impermable
in
continuous immersion and an effective barrier against osmotic blistering.
I
don't think that there's disagreement that 404/414 is an OK primer under
LPU
paints for topsides and intermittent immersion. One thing it's not is
impermeable. It's so loaded with solvents that it's quite porous.
The best guide is the pamphlets published by the paint manufacturers. In
them, they do a pretty good job of descrtibing the 'systems' of coatings,
from bottom to top. They're not ambiguous.


"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label
to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could
apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't
want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And
the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water
applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint
and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian



Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy.
Polyurethanes are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ...that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Robert or Karen Swarts wrote:
In the case of the 404/414, the can is labeled in bold print "Epoxy
Barrier-Kote".

It seems that it should be labeled "Barrier Coat for Epoxy".

RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Ooops? I gave away the last of my 404/414 so didn't have can to read. I was 99.9999% sure that 'epoxy' was not listed on the label. My apologies, Jim. Hope I didn't wreck your whole day...

Brian


"Jim Conlin" wrote in message ...
RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Jim Conlin wrote:

*RTFC!*

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies
its ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.


--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........
No doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top. Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414, it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
nk.net...
Jim Conlin wrote:

*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.


--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers

Brian -


have you tried "old fashion oil based/solvent based" 1 part primers in
comparison? Epoxy based primers are becoming more common, but even these
old "oil primers' work well under LPU coatings.

I'll have to get some 404/414 primer and do some tests too. Can we swop
some products?

paul
progressive epoxy polymers



Brian D wrote:

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top. Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414, it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...


Jim Conlin wrote:



*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.



--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers








--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Drive
Pittsfield NH 03263
10:30-3:30 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal

http://www.epoxyproducts.com
============================================

I've had LPU paints alligator alkyd (oil) paints. Only a few don't.

404/414 costs maybe $20/qt.
Paul , someone who was seriously in business could afford that.

"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...
Brian -


have you tried "old fashion oil based/solvent based" 1 part primers in
comparison? Epoxy based primers are becoming more common, but even these
old "oil primers' work well under LPU coatings.

I'll have to get some 404/414 primer and do some tests too. Can we swop
some products?

paul
progressive epoxy polymers



Brian D wrote:

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top.
Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414,
it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline
and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you
have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as
well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs
the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your
product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...


Jim Conlin wrote:



*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies
its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin
system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.



--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers








--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Drive
Pittsfield NH 03263
10:30-3:30 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal

http://www.epoxyproducts.com
============================================

Thinning epoxy barrier coat
 

Robert or Karen Swarts wrote:

In the case of the 404/414, the can is labeled in bold print "Epoxy
Barrier-Kote".

In the case of Interlux's Epiglass epoxy, the ad in Boaters World catalog
describes it as a two-part, high build primer suitable as a coating where
gelcoat has been removed. I called Boaters World and they assured me the ad
was written by Interlux. I called Interlux's tech line and they said that
was not an appropriate application and didn't understand why it was
described as such.

.................




Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

-----------------


Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"R

-----------



A few things worth noting (I'm a marine and industrial epoxy vendor)...

no such thing as expensive solvents (relative to the epoxies) ----

All of our epoxy primers are essentially just solvent thinned epoxy. You
can add about 1 pint of solvent to 1 gal of resin (not including the
curing agent) before you begin to 'damage' the epoxy, but for many
applications no problem with using even a lot more solvent.

no problem with adding solvent to any sort of barrier coat epoxy.
Barrier coat epoxy is generally just industrial epoxy paint (resin plus
pigment plus a thixo agent). Regular marine epoxy will work too but will
probably drip and sag a good bit.


regards

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers
----




















--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Drive
Pittsfield NH 03263
10:30-3:30 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal

http://www.epoxyproducts.com
============================================