"W Boat" Design / Build Opportunity
 

Yoav, the "W" Boat designer, has offered to allow, and even assist,
amature boat builders in creating personal craft for their own use
using his patented design. While you wouldn't have the rights to
produce and sell your design utilizing his technology without some
kind of licensing agreement, you would be able to create a boat for
your own use. You get free design assistance, and he gets to see what
kind of ideas others come up with using the technology.

You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.

I have offered my forums at messing-about.com as a meeting place for
those interested in taking Yoav up on the offer. Right now, we're
discussing it in our Design Forum at
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3424 If there's
enough interest I'll form a separate forum for it.

Feel free to take a look and join in if you like. messing-about.com
is free, but we do require registration to post messages (the forums
are moderated). You have to register with an ISP email address, and
not a free email address such as Hotmail, Gmail or YahooMail, or
provide contact information to me separately. Other than that, there
is no obligation in joining in, and everyone is welcome to come and
read the messages without registration.

Frank Hagan
messing-about.com



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Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:37:49 -0700, Frank Hagan
fshagan_at_copper.net wrote:

Yoav, the "W" Boat designer, has offered to allow, and even assist,
amature boat builders in creating personal craft for their own use
using his patented design. While you wouldn't have the rights to
produce and sell your design utilizing his technology without some
kind of licensing agreement, you would be able to create a boat for
your own use. You get free design assistance, and he gets to see what
kind of ideas others come up with using the technology.

You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.

I have offered my forums at messing-about.com as a meeting place for
those interested in taking Yoav up on the offer. Right now, we're
discussing it in our Design Forum at
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3424 If there's
enough interest I'll form a separate forum for it.

Feel free to take a look and join in if you like. messing-about.com
is free, but we do require registration to post messages (the forums
are moderated). You have to register with an ISP email address, and
not a free email address such as Hotmail, Gmail or YahooMail, or
provide contact information to me separately. Other than that, there
is no obligation in joining in, and everyone is welcome to come and
read the messages without registration.

Frank Hagan
messing-about.com



- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper


I was going to build a jon boat that has a hull like your boats. It's
good to see my ideas validated in a way. I built a scale model and
tested it in my pool and a creek and ended up skeptical about it's
benefits. To me it wasn't worth the extra trouble for dubious
results.

I wanted it to ride up on the outriggers at plane so there would be
almost no boat in the water. Instead the rear is still in the water
and the outriggers just dig in deeper causing even more drag. I think
maybe I will build another model that has wider outriggers and see
what that does.

Unfortunately my best testing area was the outflow from draining my
pool. That's 18,000+ gallons that I ain't going to flush down the
creek again this year. I will have to find another place where I can
find high flow water in a small place.

Frank Hagan wrote:

You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.

His design is not even remotely similar to a kayak, nor is it a
substitute for one.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:41:58 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Frank Hagan wrote:

You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.

His design is not even remotely similar to a kayak, nor is it a
substitute for one.

Not sure why this illicited a stident response, but I'm game ...
what's a better way to describe the boat and how it performs?


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Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:46:29 GMT, Ookie Wonderslug
wrote:

I was going to build a jon boat that has a hull like your boats. It's
good to see my ideas validated in a way. I built a scale model and
tested it in my pool and a creek and ended up skeptical about it's
benefits. To me it wasn't worth the extra trouble for dubious
results.

I wanted it to ride up on the outriggers at plane so there would be
almost no boat in the water. Instead the rear is still in the water
and the outriggers just dig in deeper causing even more drag. I think
maybe I will build another model that has wider outriggers and see
what that does.

Unfortunately my best testing area was the outflow from draining my
pool. That's 18,000+ gallons that I ain't going to flush down the
creek again this year. I will have to find another place where I can
find high flow water in a small place.

I guess there are some design considerations for the shape of the amas
(or whatever you call the "pontoons" on a catamaran). The other thing
I would consider is that flowing water may be turbulent and do things
to models that still water would not. One builder I know uses a rig
on his boat to float the model to port, and then powers up his boat.
It took him a while to get the harness right so it wasn't influencing
the model. IIRC, there was some pretty complicated math (at least
for me) to determine what 2 knots was to a 1/4 model. But it gave him
some good information for proceeding (he designed a 26' cabin cruiser
that way).

Don't give up on your idea. The main advantage I can see with the
catamaran style hull is the reduction in wetted surface, which for a
jon boat might be significant when trying to push it with an electric
trolling motor or by oars. You should contact Yoav on the Forum at
http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 Its an
opportunity to leverage off his experiments doing the same thing and
refine your design.
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Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

Frank Hagan wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:41:58 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


Frank Hagan wrote:


You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.

His design is not even remotely similar to a kayak, nor is it a
substitute for one.

Not sure why this illicited a stident response, but I'm game ...
what's a better way to describe the boat and how it performs?

The reason for the response is that Yoav is attempting to market his W
boat as a "safer" alternative to a kayak and as offering the same level
of performance, which is absolute BS on both counts. If one is a
kayaker, the differences are quite obvious, as are the limitations to
his design. However, all that may not be germaine to this discussion,
since the intent is to solicit builders. If the design appeals to you,
by all means build one.

Brian Nystrom wrote:
Frank Hagan wrote:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:41:58 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


Frank Hagan wrote:


You can see the molded versions of the W Boat at
http://www.wavewalk.com He feels the mini-catamaran style of paddle
boat, similar to a kayak, would lend itself well to ply construction.


His design is not even remotely similar to a kayak, nor is it a
substitute for one.


Not sure why this illicited a stident response, but I'm game ...
what's a better way to describe the boat and how it performs?


The reason for the response is that Yoav is attempting to market his W
boat as a "safer" alternative to a kayak and as offering the same level
of performance, which is absolute BS on both counts. If one is a
kayaker, the differences are quite obvious, as are the limitations to
his design. However, all that may not be germaine to this discussion,
since the intent is to solicit builders. If the design appeals to you,
by all means build one.

BTW, if you want to read something funny, check out all the
pseudo-science, incorrect assumptions and misleading comparisons in his
"speed" section. Amoung other things, he assumes that all kayaks need
rudders and compares his boat to 13' recreational kayaks, which are
known to be slow. If he compared it to a 17' sea kayak (a more typical
length) without a rudder, his boat would not fare well.

On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:35:27 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

The reason for the response is that Yoav is attempting to market his W
boat as a "safer" alternative to a kayak and as offering the same level
of performance, which is absolute BS on both counts. If one is a
kayaker, the differences are quite obvious, as are the limitations to
his design. However, all that may not be germaine to this discussion,
since the intent is to solicit builders. If the design appeals to you,
by all means build one.

OK, I think I get you now. I think it looks like it would compare
favorably to a poly sit-on-top kayak, but I suspect you're thinking of
a traditional kayak, with a spray skirt, etc. I can't say how it
would compare from experience, since I haven't tried either one, but
you might be right that a traditional kayak has performance
advantages. As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I have some experience with poly "sit on top" kayaks. The W boat
design would probably have more initial stability than the
sit-on-tops. He has a lot of pictures of people using it to fish
from, and it looks like it makes sense for that kind of application.
The sit-on-tops have a lot of wetted surface, so if the W boat does
reduce that for the same load, then paddling would be easier.

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.


- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

On Sun, 01 May 2005 18:21:54 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

BTW, if you want to read something funny, check out all the
pseudo-science, incorrect assumptions and misleading comparisons in his
"speed" section. Amoung other things, he assumes that all kayaks need
rudders and compares his boat to 13' recreational kayaks, which are
known to be slow. If he compared it to a 17' sea kayak (a more typical
length) without a rudder, his boat would not fare well.

I usually am not too critical of marketing messages. Otherwise, a
trip to the grocery store would prove to put me into an impossible
ethical dilemma: How can I choose the right soap when they all are
"better", "fresher" and "improved"?

On speed comparisons, the W Boat is less than 13' long, so the "speed"
comparisons make sense. I wouldn't compare a boat 70% longer (there's
that whole "theoretical hull speed" issue).

Designers are usually very proud of thier designs, and tend to think
they are better than other people's designs. I think that's
appropriate; I wouldn't want to buy a design from someone who thinks
his is inferior. Discussion of why they are right or wrong is
appropriate also, but I'm not sure the ad hominem attacks bring more
light to the issue.



- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

Frank Hagan wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 18:21:54 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


BTW, if you want to read something funny, check out all the
pseudo-science, incorrect assumptions and misleading comparisons in his
"speed" section. Amoung other things, he assumes that all kayaks need
rudders and compares his boat to 13' recreational kayaks, which are
known to be slow. If he compared it to a 17' sea kayak (a more typical
length) without a rudder, his boat would not fare well.


I usually am not too critical of marketing messages. Otherwise, a
trip to the grocery store would prove to put me into an impossible
ethical dilemma: How can I choose the right soap when they all are
"better", "fresher" and "improved"?

On speed comparisons, the W Boat is less than 13' long, so the "speed"
comparisons make sense. I wouldn't compare a boat 70% longer (there's
that whole "theoretical hull speed" issue).

Designers are usually very proud of thier designs, and tend to think
they are better than other people's designs. I think that's
appropriate; I wouldn't want to buy a design from someone who thinks
his is inferior. Discussion of why they are right or wrong is
appropriate also, but I'm not sure the ad hominem attacks bring more
light to the issue.

The issue isn't one of pride, it's one of honesty. Misleading people by
telling them that the W boat is a better performer than a sea kayak,
then comparing to recreational "tubs" is simply wrong. If he wants to
bill it as better than recreational kayaks, there may be something to
that claim, but it's not a substitute for a true sea kayak.

Frank Hagan wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2005 17:35:27 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:


The reason for the response is that Yoav is attempting to market his W
boat as a "safer" alternative to a kayak and as offering the same level
of performance, which is absolute BS on both counts. If one is a
kayaker, the differences are quite obvious, as are the limitations to
his design. However, all that may not be germaine to this discussion,
since the intent is to solicit builders. If the design appeals to you,
by all means build one.


OK, I think I get you now. I think it looks like it would compare
favorably to a poly sit-on-top kayak, but I suspect you're thinking of
a traditional kayak, with a spray skirt, etc.

Precisely.

I can't say how it
would compare from experience, since I haven't tried either one, but
you might be right that a traditional kayak has performance
advantages.

Trust me, it does.

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims
being made for the W Boat make it seem like it's absolutely safe, which
any experienced boat knows is absolutely untrue. Such claims could lure
someone into getting hurt.

I have some experience with poly "sit on top" kayaks. The W boat
design would probably have more initial stability than the
sit-on-tops.

Definitely.

He has a lot of pictures of people using it to fish
from, and it looks like it makes sense for that kind of application.
The sit-on-tops have a lot of wetted surface, so if the W boat does
reduce that for the same load, then paddling would be easier.

Agreed.

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:07:38 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims

I have seen stats reported for injuries in watercraft, with the
measurement being used stated as "deaths or injuries per mile" (or
some measure similar to that). Kayaks and canoes came out as the most
dangerous.

Anybody ... and I mean anybody ... can rent a blow molded polyurethane
kayak in our local waters and paddle around for an hour or two. They
generally can't get back on them after falling off, so they use the
kayak as a kickboard to get to someplace where they can get back on
top of it. I suspect that type of person would be in a very dangerous
situation in a traditional, sit inside kayak with a spray skirt.

I asked Yoav about getting back onto a W Boat, and he said it might be
a bit easier, but its still an issue (children can come up between the
sponsons and, if they have the body strength, pull themselves up.
Adults find it easier to grip the W Boat, but just like any other blow
molded kayak, its easy to push it away from you when you're trying to
get back up on it).

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.
- - -
http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper

Frank Hagan wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:07:38 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

As to safety, I don't know which would be safer; an
experience kayaker who has trained to roll himself back upright might
be safer than a weekend warrior trying to get back into an open design
like the W-boat.

I would suggest the former, but I'm biased because I fit into that
category. I've also seen exactly how quickly inexperienced/unprpared
kayakers and other boaters can get into serious trouble. The claims

I have seen stats reported for injuries in watercraft, with the
measurement being used stated as "deaths or injuries per mile" (or
some measure similar to that). Kayaks and canoes came out as the most
dangerous.

The stats are somewhat misleading, as on average there are only ~12
paddler deaths per year, nationwide. While it's true that the percentage
is higher based on time, miles, number of boaters or whatever, the
actual number of deaths is a tiny fraction of that of other boater
groups. Interestingly, the paddlers most likely to die are fishermen in
canoes, due primarily to a general lack of PFD use and the likelihood of
alcohol being involved. Whitewater paddlers come next and sea kayakers
are a distant third.

Anybody ... and I mean anybody ... can rent a blow molded polyurethane
kayak in our local waters and paddle around for an hour or two. They
generally can't get back on them after falling off, so they use the
kayak as a kickboard to get to someplace where they can get back on
top of it. I suspect that type of person would be in a very dangerous
situation in a traditional, sit inside kayak with a spray skirt.

That type of person is in a very dangerous situation any time they're in
more than a few feet of water more than a few feet from shore,
particularly if the water is cold. The problem is that they don't
realize the danger they're in. I see clueless people out on the water
all the time. The fact that there isn't an enormous number of deaths per
year is a testament to the seaworthiness of kayaks and just plain dumb luck.

I asked Yoav about getting back onto a W Boat, and he said it might be
a bit easier, but its still an issue (children can come up between the
sponsons and, if they have the body strength, pull themselves up.
Adults find it easier to grip the W Boat, but just like any other blow
molded kayak, its easy to push it away from you when you're trying to
get back up on it).

The extra height of the W Boat does seem like it would make it more
difficult to get back on. With sit-in or sit-on-top kayaks, it's really
a matter or knowing the proper techniques for self-rescue. It's not
difficult, but you need to know how and practice it BEFORE you get into
that situation.

In any case, someone like Ookie who wants to experiment with the type
of design can get some free advice in building one.

Sure. If it suits your needs, build one. Just don't think that it's a
substitute for a kayak. It's simply too different and it has some
serious limitations.

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but small, powered catamarans/twin hulls are
nothing new, right?

On Thu, 12 May 2005 12:12:22 GMT, Brian Nystrom
wrote:

Frank Hagan wrote:

Well, I'm actually thinking of something a little different. I'd like
to see if the W Boat design would lend itself to a low power runabout
type of thing ... a two-seater with a small outboard ... 5 hp? ...
that would get up to 7 - 10 knots. If it remains stable with the 40#
on the stern, then it might be a fun little boat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but small, powered catamarans/twin hulls are
nothing new, right?

Yep, you're right ... they have been made before, but I haven't found
plans for any. And this does give me a chance to work out plans
myself with advice from someone who has toyed with the concept quite a
bit.
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http://www.messing-about.com
Resources for the Boat Builder, Renovator and Small Boat Skipper