Powering a boat with AC and DC (was) WTB: Marine Inverter
 

Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, he) Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load. Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are "battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean) circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, he) Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load. Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be adding
a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

The long winded point is that a 900AH Battery and an inverter will not run a
Heater or an Air Conditioner 24/7 through the weekend without being able to
recharge the batteries at substantial rate. A good sized generator will be
needed!


"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...
I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, he) Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load.
Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters
are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if
really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has
that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity
in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be
adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

"John Cassara" wrote in message
...
The long winded point is that a 900AH Battery and an inverter will not run
a Heater or an Air Conditioner 24/7 through the weekend without being able
to recharge the batteries at substantial rate. A good sized generator will
be needed!

Absolutely! No heater or AC can be run off of an inverter in any practical
manner.


"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...
I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, he) Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these
days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This
is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their
own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load.
Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters
are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if
really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has
that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity
in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll
have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be
adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part
I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this
time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in
:

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major,
I don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in
the neighborhood of 500W solar

How big are these solar panels? A Kyocera KC120 panel at 120 watts is:
Max power: 120 Watts
Max voltage: 16.9 Volts
Max current: 7.10 Amps
Dimensions (LxWxD): 56.1" x 25.7" x 2.2"
Weight: 26.3 lbs

4 of those kinda hinders going on deck, I suppose. Or, do you mean 500
watt-hours per day?? 500 watts x 8 hours = 4 KWh/day...pretty nice!

, and a KISS wind generator in the
Caribbean. Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3,
or 4 if really lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input,
daily. My math has that at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown -
but apparently pretty substantial - AH from a KISS.

Solar is useless on cloudy days, but that's when the wind is usually
blowing so you got it covered.

Speaking of wind power, have you see http://www.otherpower.com/
These homebrewers are really producing KWh!


Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for
simplicity in this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our
presumption that we'll have 4-5 days capacity, in the most
unimaginable (in the Caribbean) circumstance of continuous no wind or
sun.

Have I missed something here?

No, not at all. The big inverters are great for QUICK and TEMPORARY loads,
even heavy loads if the battery banks can produce the heavy load currents
without sagging a lot.

Too bad boats don't use 48 volts instead of "car power". The whole thing
becomes much more efficient as the voltage rises.

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Absolutely! No heater or AC can be run off of an inverter in any
practical manner.


You would be amazed at how many sailors buying 4KW inverters cannot
comprehend this concept.....

Of course, these sailors have money (lawyers, doctors, businesspersons).
Ever watch a lawyer load new batteries into a flashlight?...(c;

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

Absolutely! No heater or AC can be run off of an inverter in any
practical manner.


You would be amazed at how many sailors buying 4KW inverters cannot
comprehend this concept.....

No I wouldn't :)

Of course, these sailors have money (lawyers, doctors, businesspersons).
Ever watch a lawyer load new batteries into a flashlight?...(c;

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in
:

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major,
I don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in
the neighborhood of 500W solar

How big are these solar panels? A Kyocera KC120 panel at 120 watts is:
Max power: 120 Watts

Not really. That is advertising hype.

Max voltage: 16.9 Volts
Max current: 7.10 Amps
Dimensions (LxWxD): 56.1" x 25.7" x 2.2"
Weight: 26.3 lbs

4 of those kinda hinders going on deck, I suppose. Or, do you mean 500
watt-hours per day?? 500 watts x 8 hours = 4 KWh/day...pretty nice!

Useful power is more like 4 hours a day. 10AM to 2PM. Before and after
it is vastly reduced.

, and a KISS wind generator in the
Caribbean. Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3,
or 4 if really lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input,
daily. My math has that at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown -
but apparently pretty substantial - AH from a KISS.

KISS is a great generator.

Solar is useless on cloudy days, but that's when the wind is usually
blowing so you got it covered.

Depends upon where you are.

Speaking of wind power, have you see http://www.otherpower.com/
These homebrewers are really producing KWh!

Sure, with 6' or better blades.


Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for
simplicity in this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our
presumption that we'll have 4-5 days capacity, in the most
unimaginable (in the Caribbean) circumstance of continuous no wind or
sun.

Have I missed something here?

No, not at all. The big inverters are great for QUICK and TEMPORARY
loads,
even heavy loads if the battery banks can produce the heavy load currents
without sagging a lot.

Too bad boats don't use 48 volts instead of "car power". The whole thing
becomes much more efficient as the voltage rises.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:23:15 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote:

Too bad boats don't use 48 volts instead of "car power". The whole thing
becomes much more efficient as the voltage rises.

===========================================

It's not unheard of to use a 48 volt inverter bank. You lose the
ability to tie into your alternators for charging but if you have
reduntant generators and inverters that is not really an issue.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:38:13 -0500, "John Cassara"
wrote:

The long winded point is that a 900AH Battery and an inverter will not run a
Heater all weekend.

=================================

That's true but it will run a heater for 7 or 8 hours at night which
is all you really need (assuming you can recharge in the morning).