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Fishing boats construction certification and design
Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing
in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat, fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to pre designed drawings. Can someone help to guide in the following ? Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape is better? U? Flatbottom? Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India? If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing? For a physics picture of stability: 1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability? 2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations established? Hope not a tall order. TIA for all helpful tips. G.L.Narasimham |
Hi
I will point to a Yahoo group where you can find free/download design of various sizes and different types of construction. What is interesting about the site is that it progress a new building method develobed just to overcome some of the real troubles with ships building and develobed to offer a hull at a third the cost, in modern seaworty design , tree times the strength of tradisional construction methods and acturly using the computer for the lofting and cutting of the only material needed for these designs, sheet material. The plans are free and cover tradisional small dinghies up to ocean going combined sail/speed boats , please notis that as the plans are CAD drawings, you can alter the designs by up or down scaling the intire drawing and from a 12 meter heavy speed boat ,end up with a very attractive and practic hull for a reliable and safe work boat. A tradisional boat of some size simply need ribs or frames even in the building process, so you can fit the unfolded panels onto somthing that show the shape of the craft and act as substructure ---- with these crafts the framework go one step further, as they are aranged in a 3D pattern that make each frame be supported by all others, providing a much stronger hull ,leading to a building technike that make the hull as a thick shell of frames forming a honeycomb structure that covered with the paneling end up as a most rugid construction where sheet materials are the main building material, where nothing in the framework need bending but is cut from sheet materials steel or plywood .. These are most exiting designs in terms of ease of building while the plans in full-scale show each detail, the hull consisting of a thick shell with the perfect framework underneath offer a ready hull where most time comsuming details are removed by design, --------- The full-scale plans can acturly be spray-glued onto the sheet material chosen for panels or framework and cut from the lines on the drawings directly for perfect fit and a garentie of the hull shown in the plans, the stability are better than what Lloyd ask and an option to foam fill the honeycomb cubes promise a hull unable to sink one where you can cut a hole in the back and place a big in-outboard thru an engine well --- after the hull is build and before you chosen the engines. Check the slideshow that show just a fraction of both old and the new 3D-Honeycomb based designs, anyway Cyber-Boat offer free download of true 3D modern designs _and_ the unfolded panels plus building jig and framework assembly, and any material you need, is sheet material of your choice ; that be steel, premade glasfiber sheets with one side nice turning outside making the finish as the first thing and the framework as somthing you can cover with mat and resin and just leave there using it first as building jig and later as permanent honeycomb framework. Now please check the site, there are several orther groups with designs, you will find the links at the main group's homepage --- Btw. check a search about 3D-Honeycomb as the method also build a house at a third the cost four times as strong and only halve the trouble building ; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/ Best regards Per Corell Boatbuilder CAD expert http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/ |
On 15 Jan 2005 08:49:10 -0800, "Narasimham"
wrote: Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat, fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to pre designed drawings. Can someone help to guide in the following ? Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape is better? U? Flatbottom? Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India? If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing? If the density of the new hull materials duplicates the wood, the capsize behavior won't change. If the new hull is thicker or thinner but weighs the same overall the behavior still won't change enough to notice. For a physics picture of stability: 1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability? Yes, it is one factor. 2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations established? The volume of the immersed part of the hull displaces the weight of the vessel in water. That is what displacement means. HTH Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a Capsizing under chute, and having the chute rise and fill without tangling, all while Mark and Sally are still behind you |
Here are some links to local fiberglass ocean going commercial fishing boat
builders. You might try emailing them. http://www.peiboats.com/ http://www.huttboat.ca/ http://www.fourportsmarine.com/ http://www.magnamarine.com "Narasimham" wrote in message oups.com... Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat, fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to pre designed drawings. Can someone help to guide in the following ? Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape is better? U? Flatbottom? Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India? If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing? For a physics picture of stability: 1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability? 2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations established? Hope not a tall order. TIA for all helpful tips. G.L.Narasimham |
If you go to the boatdesign.net forums, there are active threads concerning how
we can help in that area. Try he http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26 Steve Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm |
Hi
I am a danish boatbuilder I build and design from experience and realy none of my boats ever proven wrong, ---- the rules about materials is easy you can find these easy a boat this size ask this thickness of paneling and this amount of frames my buisness is true new building methods and design. The 3D-Honeycomb method offer a boat at a third the cost, much stronger in construction and if you care look into detail in the design, also a boat build much faster and one more very important issue ; the materials do not need to be bended everything also the assembly framework are cut from sheet materials. A boat is structure and panels, this structure are among the most efficient as it involve develobment in digital tools in understanding digital tools in using the technology of the future to replace what I learned being a boatbuilder and what I scrapped measuring it up against the new tools . Materials like sheet material ask only one production line where tradisionaly you need several productions to different types of beams profiles, fittings nuts and bolts, here there are only sheet material that form any round or square form, ready to be covered with the surface digitaly unfolded from the same 3D model that shape the framework in exact measures. The full-scale plans must not be scaled unequaly but to cirtain degrees , a 7 meter can be scaled to 10 meter but ofcaurse not to 20 meter. Now this is my ansver to you, for the Bolger fanatics I will say, that unless you want the fishermen to make their bread from boats made from scratch shut your mouth,. Best regards, ---- the best it can be in honor of a proud old craft. Per Corell Boatbuilder Copenhagen Denmark |
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You might try talking with the fishermen in the area since they have long
experience of what shapes work and which ones don't work well for their waters. Then work from there. Brian |
Hi
Andrew maby you shuld join the Bolger crowd and suggest an elegant Elefant, guess you and the other crowd acturly never reached the hangover supporting oldfasion design pieces of offcut plywood and now as the best skills you know, lead the bullying . Now you done well in this group, being the outmost skilled craftmen in bullying and harrassing displaying hate as the top social skill . ---------- Why do you spill your poison, wasn't it enough to take the bread from some guy better skilled than the average Bolger fanatic ; am I not all-american enough having a strange frensh name or are your ass simply about to burn from anger that now real skills must show it value. Go suggest a Bolger design and laugh the ass out your pans, destroy the reputation of anyone who dare say have visions and master the new tools, but Andrew I build the old way, I even have a good reputation as boatbuilder and you dryass crowd only have a reputation as dryass usenet junkey's allway's on the lookout for somone to harras somone to bully . ---------- Somone who think boats shuld not be build from scratch plywood leftover. You crowd allway's hated the skilled ones didn't you. |
Now Andrew you had your chance to lead out your poison once again, now
tell me what pervert pleasure you display , tell me why you try ruin my reputation spill poison in a discussion --------- is this your best bid in this discussion well go back to hell and charge up your pover. |
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On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:14:52 -0800, "Brian Combs"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email You might try talking with the fishermen in the area since they have long experience of what shapes work and which ones don't work well for their waters. Then work from there. I agree. I see the boats they use, and they look very seaworthy in shape and design. And after all they are the one that are going to use them. It will be easier to persuade them to use the boats, and their lives are the ones at stake. |
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Hi
If you check the Cyber-Boat Yahoo group you will se pictures of several of the small boats I designed, build, sold plans for given plans away for. If you knew the old Cyber-Boat site you would have seen several more boats build ------ Now in this group for some reson innovation and even CAD as how used in industrie is simply not understood ; some people here rather turn a discussion into a personal harasment pointing to "their" favorite designer omitting the progress in digital projecting and how boatbuilding as a craft taken all these new technologies into count --- if you know that a CAD program carry everything from Archimedes to Pascal and know that a CAD program is just the calculations and tools alway's used by boatbuilders and designers, then you also know how silli but also how dirty the discussions in this fora work ; Now you ask and I point you to the last boat I build, you se I alway's combined tradisional craftmanship with modern tools, so what you se is _not_ an old fasion boat acturly everything is made with computer --- that is the design that is an altered Lofoten dinghie, the plans the calculations, just everything is made with computers, --- except building the boat from the ready cut planks, now tell me if I can build a boat, and tell me if you think I can design one. And if you think so please ask the other crowd to show somthing of the same quality ; ---- Please check the Foto's section to se the build boat ; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-...foten-dinghie/ Please check the other Cyber-Boat groups to se those build boats. Per Corell |
After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to
help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Some FAO documents on the subject: http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cd.../W7260E/W7260E 00.HTM http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/T0530E/T0530E00.HTM http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/V9468E/V9468E00.HTM Paolo |
Hi
I must agrea that I do not belive that glasfiber and resin is the only solution. I love to use Epoxies and know that a glasfiber boat offer the top of what boatbuilding achived but I do belive more in other methods and I think that sheet materials is a better alternative even as ready made sheet materials cut after Digital projecting, --- . Still I do belive that a combine of methods, like how you already se bigger glasfiber paneled boats build with wooden frames , but why not take it a step further so the boat only cost a third and is four times as strong, and the builders start using actural digital tools not rewritten old methods. Personaly I find epoxies and polyester to valuable a source and the need for digital manufactoring more important , even in space industrie the best would be metal not epoxy, but anyway if this is about efficiency what\s wrong with pre hardened glasfiber sheets pre. cut to form the framework assembly ready cut panels , and then build up inside that, ---- premade glasfiber sheets already offer one smooth side, why spend the time making an expensive plug to make a form if a new technology offer a much more promising aproach. Why not focus on sheet materials as that cover plastic aswell as metal and steel or plywood. Digital options as we se them today, is rather about making an expensive plug with an expensive 3D router just to support a maby worn out technike ,rather than using and expanding the real digital options. With 3D-Honeycomb my attitude is, that now you have the full freedom forming and a garentie for the strength , but it also is a compleat other world, than just doing what else could be made by hand anyway, realy you don\t use a 3D router for that and it seem that a simple 2D N.C. cutter prove much more efficient forming the pieces for an assembly. Today\s design and architect programs are not about shaping the form and generating the assembly but make a neat account, an account just as 70 years ago , now if we aks new solutions and new jobs it is my belive that this ask a change in perception . We still translate the old methods into computer code and ask a 3D router to router out the plug to make the form so we stay with boatbuilding as how that is today, maby a change in the way to build a boat or a house is what will bring the jobs and the nice boats and houses at a third the cost four times as strong as that ask digital tools. P.C. |
Proposal is for new techniques. Fishermen may not imbibe new ways of
boat construction without training. |
As I understood what you were saying is,
When the CNC machine cut templates by CAD drawings mesh together, a rigid shape boat becomes available already!... and there is no need to have a separate mould,much of drudgery is taken out of forming the hull shape, both the inside and outside shapes are formed and are ready to be filled in and spruced up. It is a logical but advanced continuation of plywood laminating method. Right? This 3D honeycomb technique appears highly productive and cost effective, irrespective of how many boats have so far been made or not made. Regards wrote: Hi I must agree that I do not believe that glasfiber and resin is the only solution. I love to use Epoxies and know that a glasfiber boat offer the top of what boatbuilding achived but I do belive more in other methods and I think that sheet materials is a better alternative even as ready made sheet materials cut after Digital projecting, --- . Still I do belive that a combine of methods, like how you already se bigger glasfiber paneled boats build with wooden frames , but why not take it a step further so the boat only cost a third and is four times as strong, and the builders start using actural digital tools not rewritten old methods. Personaly I find epoxies and polyester to valuable a source and the need for digital manufactoring more important , even in space industrie the best would be metal not epoxy, but anyway if this is about efficiency what\s wrong with pre hardened glasfiber sheets pre. cut to form the framework assembly ready cut panels , and then build up inside that, ---- premade glasfiber sheets already offer one smooth side, why spend the time making an expensive plug to make a form if a new technology offer a much more promising aproach. Why not focus on sheet materials as that cover plastic aswell as metal and steel or plywood. Digital options as we se them today, is rather about making an expensive plug with an expensive 3D router just to support a maby worn out technike ,rather than using and expanding the real digital options. With 3D-Honeycomb my attitude is, that now you have the full freedom forming and a garentie for the strength , but it also is a compleat other world, than just doing what else could be made by hand anyway, realy you don\t use a 3D router for that and it seem that a simple 2D N.C. cutter prove much more efficient forming the pieces for an assembly. Today\s design and architect programs are not about shaping the form and generating the assembly but make a neat account, an account just as 70 years ago , now if we aks new solutions and new jobs it is my belive that this ask a change in perception . We still translate the old methods into computer code and ask a 3D router to router out the plug to make the form so we stay with boatbuilding as how that is today, maby a change in the way to build a boat or a house is what will bring the jobs and the nice boats and houses at a third the cost four times as strong as that ask digital tools. P.C. |
Narasimham wrote:
Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat, fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to pre designed drawings. I think you first have to define the boat and it's mission a bit better - hand (paddle/oar) powered will have to be smaller than sail or outboard power. How much cargo (fish) will it carry? How fast does it need to go? Rigid PU foam is o.k. for insulation and flotation but not structural purposes; it is too brittle and weak. Can someone help to guide in the following ? Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape is better? U? Flatbottom? Hull shape will depend on whether it will be a planing boat (fast with outboard power) or slow (sail or human powered) If you hire a naval architect they will define the shape of the hull and the construction method. If you are building more than a few boats, a female mould (concave shape) is the only way to build efficiently. You may also be able to purchase stock (premade) plans from a plan company. Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India? Yes, Lloyds, DNV (Det Norske Veritas) and ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) are the big ones. But for a third world project they will be costly and probably not worthwhile or needed. If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing? It depends on what the existing shapes are and how heavy they are built and where the weights are located - too complex to give a simple answer here. For a physics picture of stability: 1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability? Yes - higher GM means higher static stability 2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations established? The shape of the waterplane area (cross section of the hull) determines how much it will sink at a given draft. One thought - in Mexico fisherman changed their style of fishing boat over the past 20 years or so. Initally they used dugout canoes with paddles or simple oars and stayed close to shore. Later dugouts had small outboards added, and were sometimes replicated in fiberglass. Then the "panga" appeared, a very shallow deadrise (shallow V shape hull) about 24-26' long. It is built in fiberglass and typically uses a 48,55, or 70 HP outboard motor. These boats are very seaworthy and often venture offshore about 50 miles, catching up to about 1 tonne of fish before returning home at slower speeds. Gill nets are the most used fishing gear. These boats are beached at the end of the day or anchored just off the beach. They are built in solid fiberglass with some wood for rubrails and seats etc. They look like this: http://www.panga.com/pangagallery/pangamex.html I think they are a good solution to Mexican fisherman's needs but the government had to offer low interest loans to allow the fisherman to buy the motor and boat. Good luck. Evan Gatehouse |
Hi
The CNC is the sideeffect the gain but youdo not need a CNC mashin to cut the framework , it can be cut with quite tradisional tools or mashins. The plans can be plottet on paper in full size and in the simplest way to make the boat, you simply spray glue the full scale plans ontop the sheet material and cut from the lines on the drawings, ---- the pieces will fit together perfect. But the technology I point to is the simplest and cheapest way to establish a real digital production, the N.C. cutter is the cheapest N.C. controlled equipment on the marked, but there are much more to it --- the concept is a compleat change of aproach it make 4 boats at the same time as 1 with the old methods. Ontop there are the thing about materials this method ask only one type of material sheet material. Where other methods ask 20 different profiles knees , hangers, stringers nuts and bolts ----- again with the 3D-Honeycomb you do not bend any piece of the ribs or frames , when cut flat they slide together to form a reliable and in terms of design and projecting very rugid and simple structure ; again you do not bend one single piece and pieces when cut fit perfect together, this is very different from the time comsuming aproach you se in other methods where fiddeling and bending acturly is a big and time comsuming part of it. With this method you get the boat in the drawings. and pieces can be made everywhere are easy to transport before assembling . Now did I point to the fact that in easy terms and in a way everyone can understand, computer design and cheap digital projecting make sense and point to other progress such as how to build a house at a third the cost so strong it will resist an earthquake , but if this issue interest you please check the hundreds of structures to explain the 3D-Honeycomb concept, --- how also in architecture the 3D-H structure offer a new aproach a new way to build and project a building by offering the basic structure in a way that promise the new jobs and the cheap strong new houses. This concept do not deal with rebuilding with dirtbags, barbed wire and mud --- it promise the new technology at a state everyone can understand just by looking at it, it acturly make the computer work where today's design and architect applications mainly is about making a digital account , it is so different from the old methods and still it only build ontop and offer just what you can emagine , but in a way you can call digital. P.C. |
Narasimham wrote: Am mechanical engineer with a composites background presently residing in south India. After recent Tsunami disaster, toying with the idea to help make hand /sail/outboard moter powered fiberglass fishing boats of standard 30 feet length. Raw materials .. chopped strand mat, fiberglass cloth, polyester resin and rigid PU foam are commercially available locally, as is semi-skilled labour who could make boats to pre designed drawings. Can someone help to guide in the following ? Shapes: Are drawings available on net? or on payment? What hull shape is better? U? Flatbottom? Do Lloyds or other certifying agencies based in Europe/US have a branch or mechanism to test and certify marine craft after fabrication and testing when involved right from beginning stages in India? If existing wooden hull shapes are duplicated but replaced by solid fiberglass laminate or polyurethene foam (closed cell to keep out water) sandwich, would it serve the purpose with stability resisting wave forces with adequate margin before capsizing? For a physics picture of stability: 1) Is metacentric height a parameter to assess stability? 2) Draft. On what factors is load-depth of immersion relations established? Hope not a tall order. TIA for all helpful tips. G.L.Narasimham |
why don't you just BUILD one of your designs,and stop all the
BULL****??? |
Hi
Alex in all times so many people wished they was the ones one of the small group of listeners "if I could have been there" , "I would have understood" , "I would have understood" Would they ? --- those who talk nicely about their dead prophets and hount the visionary . The fake priests that is better twisting words than offering just one good thought for those who suffer. Then one asked the master, not to get the ansver he presumably expected, but to find just one word to make him a fool . To hount and squeze to do what they alway's did with their prophets. --- Stick deep Eh. |
I failed to enter my message yesterday. I'll try again. Thirty or so
years ago the Constant Camber method of cold-molding boats was invented by some multihull designers who were working for the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and the World Bank to help Third-World fishermen repatriate their boatbuilding, and do it with indigenous materials mostly, and return to easily-propelled forms that might relieve these fishermen from the need for imported motors and fuels. In general, though the method is great for building certains families of forms with any wood you can slash into veneers, and only the glues needed to be imported, the projects in various parts of the world generally faltered: fishermen didn't want to go back to oar and sail, and corruption carried off the money. I don't know who builds in Constant Camber now except a for an occasional big multihull. And myself. I have built about 66 small CC rowing and sailing craft, canoe bodied, and the method is marvelously efficient for such boats, cheaper than making equivalent boats out of purchased flat plywood, and resultes in light, strong, durable, low-maintenance boats, easily driven. But to get to the important part of this note, it's just a warning against trying to deflect the fishermen from their customary boat types. It does seem to be one of the best places to put aid: into restoring the fishing fleet; but I don't know why it can't be done real fast with brute money and available boats that are much like the ones we've all seen trashed by the wave. There must be many with this impulse to help, and I have assumed that people much more knowledgeable than I are on the scene already, bless them. |
Hi
You write it yourself "thirty years ago or so". But this is not what will spark a fast rebuild it will not make the new jobs it is old technikes what do you expect. Now about my role in this please read the following text, please ask yourself what ansver is relevant, protecting the dead profets hounting the real visionary ; "Then one who studied the law come to him and ask --- not to get an ansver but to justify himself, Guess we all know this kind of questions they ask only in the hope that the one who ansver, will ansver in a way that will make him "impossible" in the minds of those who listen, or by twisting the words make the ansver silli ---- and if he do not ansver or ansver somthing they don't expect they will display a head shaking attitude saying "there you se" ." In this group you se the ansver in this tread, this is not about helping those who suffered to make the new hope or create the new jobs, to do that you must invest in the new options realise the digital tools that is so different from old fasion building a boat or building a house , --- now just wait , there will be yet another hatefull usenet fanatic with just another filth ansver somone who will display the social skills that is praised in this group. P.C. |
alex wrote:
why don't you just BUILD one of your designs,and stop all the BULL****??? In such a traditinal field especially when it is expensive in a developing country after disaster one needs to be cautious,proceeding without expert advice could result in part or full b... |
Hi
I only promise that in 3,5 years the issue of rebuilding the structures like boats and houses is already solved, then ontop come the gains of a new technike at it's original form. What can be acomblished in terms of beautifull buildings can't be explained you don't need a naval architect for that, this requier a designer, One that maneage to spell hell in small caps. |
wrote in message
ups.com... Hi I only promise that in 3,5 years the issue of rebuilding the structures like boats and houses is already solved, then ontop come the gains of a new technike at it's original form. What can be acomblished in terms of beautifull buildings can't be explained you don't need a naval architect for that, this requier a designer, One that maneage to spell hell in small caps. Per, Regardless of how advanced your designs may be, it is likely that the fishermen in these countries will be very reluctant to suddenly adopt a type of boat with which they are unfamiliar. They depend on these boats for their lives and livelihood, and must be prepared to maintain them with their own hands and only the most primitive tools and equipment, perhaps performing emergency repairs alone on a remote beach. Most have minimal formal education, because they have been fishing and building boats since childhood. They would have a very hard time reading plans or managing unfamiliar production techniques (e.g. epoxy), etc., and would in all likelihood reject your innovative designs in favor of old, trusted (if technically inferior) favorites. Alex |
Hi
You are quite right, ---- what I notised was that either you se glasfiber hulls small types or fairly old not very well shape old wooden ones, the dameages seen is those you expece on old very old boats, but this is somthing you need a boatbuilder to say , I just was stunned about how wet soft and weak the planks in many of these wecks seemed , as if this was very old hulls patched and paintet but looking worn out in terms of how the wood broke. In these contries anything can be turned into somthing they are very well skilled craftmen . Then what I point to is a technike so much more simple even towerds the technike you would use to rebuild what was there, ---- epoxies from my oppinion is not the right attitude the tradisional glasfiber hulls take lots of time the fumes are not very healty and the stuff is specialised and expensive and ask a huge knowleage, putting together an assembly framework is easy covering it with paneline just as easy, sorry I cant do anything about the cost of the cheapest materials ,but the maerials for the 3D-H concept are the cheapest ones and ptting it together is the simplest technike in boatsbuilding. |
Hi
Sorry forgot to mention ---- with 3D-Honeycomb framework you can take just any shap of boat, just copy the lines into a CAD program and make the accomodations even better arange it smarter with a sense framework forming the boats hull, after you digitised a 3D model of _any_ shape of boat, press the button and the intire framework to form that boat is generated in an instant right away ----- if you already project in 3D assemble the standard geometrics so you think the panels will be easier cut from "known geometrics" , do the design as how you want just by a press of a button the intire structure is ready to be cut as a ready assembly. ------------ This is how 3D-Honeycomb work even in the design process it is a tenth the job and it is perfectly accurate and use one material only sheet material. |
Brian Combs wrote:
You might try talking with the fishermen in the area since they have long experience of what shapes work and which ones don't work well for their waters. Then work from there. Brian They are handed down from experienced masters or just duplicate existing shapes. As marine technology has developed so much, expect that standard/recommended design methodology or practice has become available,one can start from an instruction manual. |
The Pangas are derived from some free FAO designs;
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cd...E/W7260E00.htm Those FAO boats are cheap to build and operate but don't plane. If you sligthly modify the FAO boats by making the aft part of the bottom straight, they plane with larger engines. The similitude between them and "pangas" is striking. Those modified FAO boats are also common in Asia, Indonesia, Philippines etc. It looks like they all derived from the same set of plans. There are also Panga plans for amateurs at our web site: http://boatplans-online.com Per could even build them from 3D honeycomb, we sell that stuff under the name Nidacore ;-) but they would be too light and it would go against the program of the boat: eays to build and maintain with locally available materials and skills. To the original poster, I would say, get the free FAO plans from the link above. Jacques from bateau.com Narasimham wrote: Brian Combs wrote: You might try talking with the fishermen in the area since they have long experience of what shapes work and which ones don't work well for their waters. Then work from there. Brian They are handed down from experienced masters or just duplicate existing shapes. As marine technology has developed so much, expect that standard/recommended design methodology or practice has become available,one can start from an instruction manual. |
Hi
"but they would be too light and it would go against the program of the boat: eays to build and maintain with locally available materials and skills." This is proberly the core issue but please remember how skilled craftmanship you se from these contries, --- My attitude is ofcaurse that to further gain and make a relevant promise of a future that work , these skills shuld be put into digital rather than staying with methods and tools that was relevant 70 years ago. Now please exchouse I repeat but 3D-Honeycomb form any shape, it even prove easyer presing a button to get the intire framework assembly, than adding rib after rib polyline or spline , translate this into somthing that in it's aproach is the same Oak rib as you seen in ships from the 17' century ---- it even is easy for the designer, the one who shuld draw eash frame stringer and rib, to have the computer calculate everything down millimeter accurancy and in only one material sheet material , as this also make the same easy foundations for a house --- now do you read me ? Per Corell |
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Sorry , I didn't ansver this question ; "2) Are displacement/stability parameters easily calculable by a formula or design chart for each scale ratio?" Easy --- as curves describing the exact displacement for stability. Waterlines and secions follow useal drawing rules but 3D-H expand this perception now you can make double hollow structures things you can't emagine but master on a screen, ---- and it will be there when the framework is assembled. For thousands of years naval architecture been in the minds of often totaly unskilled craftmen producing the most beautifull wonders, in the 17' century in this contry, only the king could build knowleage such as top technology naval design was for the few, an academic issue about keeping the secrets to oneself , I build and designed boats none of these failed but beside I am a boatbuilder lectured boatsbuilding acturly, proved my idears and abilities as profesional you can be, being surrounded by famous and known designers and architects --- do I maneage to design a rugid life saving boat do the sun rise every day. What calculations do you want --- acturly it's about doing it simpler avoiding the calculations or make them do somthing , alway's wondered what people want these calculations for, it's all there when you build it. |
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