Drop keel won't drop
 

I had asked the same question some time ago. The best response was to run a
saws-all along each side of the keel from below. I would use a caution as to
not cut into the fiberglass trunk. Be sure the support cable is tight, you
don't want the board to shift and hit you or bind the saw.

I still have to extract my center board! t will be a task under taken after
the boat is hauled out of my yard and brought to the marina. They will be
able to block the boat high enough to do the work.
John

"Derek Lawler" wrote in message
...
I have a 1978 Chrysler 26 that has sat on a trailer for the last ten years
after being brought back up from Key West to my house in Pompano Beach. I
intend to re-fit the boat and put it back in the water and go sailing,
however, the 1300 pound drop keel seems to have expanded with rust inside
the trunk and it won't come down. I have put a large crowbar through the
cable hole that I expanded some by chipping out the cement. By beating on
the bar with a sledge hammer I only managed to shake the boat on the
trailer
some without any movement of the keel. I can't be the only one in the
world
with this problem so someone out there might have a solution for me. How
can
I get the keel free? Thanks in advance.

Derek Lawler, Pompano Beach, Florida


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

"Derek Lawler" wrote
I have a 1978 Chrysler 26 that has sat on a trailer for the last ten years
after being brought back up from Key West to my house in Pompano Beach. I
intend to re-fit the boat and put it back in the water and go sailing,
however, the 1300 pound drop keel seems to have expanded with rust inside
the trunk and it won't come down.

Probably the most cost-effective way to repair this would be to sell
this boat and buy one in good working order. You're looking at a huge
hassle. Sorry, I wish I had more cheerful news...

... I have put a large crowbar through the
cable hole that I expanded some by chipping out the cement. By beating on
the bar with a sledge hammer I only managed to shake the boat on the
trailer
some without any movement of the keel. I can't be the only one in the
world
with this problem so someone out there might have a solution for me. How
can
I get the keel free? Thanks in advance.


Rust expands, so you may have a swing keel locked into it's trunk over
it's entire surface. The best way to get it out will be to saw off the
trunk, lower it out of the boat, then saw the trunk in half. You can
then sandblast the swing keel & refinish it, and fiberglass the trunk
back together. In fact you can fiberglass it back together in such a way
that the repair could not be detectable, and it would be stronger than
the original. It's only time & money!


John Cassara wrote:
I had asked the same question some time ago. The best response was to run a
saws-all along each side of the keel from below.

That doesn't sound like a good idea. The odds of damaging the swink keel
& the trunk & hull seem very high... what's going to happen when the
sawz-all brushes against solid iron instead of rust? What sort of
protective gear can your wear to ward off the hi-pressure stream of rust
& iron particles & chips of fiberglass? Are you going to trust life &
limb to the swing keel lifting cable & winch that have not seen service
in 10 years?

Anyway, not to be unduly pessimistic... I wish you luck with the
project. It's potentially a nice boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

"Derek Lawler" wrote
I have a 1978 Chrysler 26 that has sat on a trailer for the last ten years
after being brought back up from Key West to my house in Pompano Beach. I
intend to re-fit the boat and put it back in the water and go sailing,
however, the 1300 pound drop keel seems to have expanded with rust inside
the trunk and it won't come down.

---------------

my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water blaster -enough pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and fall out
of the trunk

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

"Paul Oman" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

"Derek Lawler" wrote
I have a 1978 Chrysler 26 that has sat on a trailer for the last ten
years
after being brought back up from Key West to my house in Pompano Beach.
I
intend to re-fit the boat and put it back in the water and go sailing,
however, the 1300 pound drop keel seems to have expanded with rust
inside
the trunk and it won't come down.

---------------

my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water blaster -enough
pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and
fall out
of the trunk

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers
/////////////////////////
I would soak with a light creeping oil such as paraffin or WD40 for a week
or so, adding daily then try again.

Paul Oman wrote:
my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water blaster -enough pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and fall out
of the trunk

Now that's a pretty good idea. The mess might be easier to deal with and
easier to avoid cutting away too much fiberglass.

Derek Lawler wrote:
I had thought of selling the boat as is and getting another. I happen to
love the design of this boat and its layout.

Well, it's a Halsey Herreshoff design.


... With the board up it seems to go in
water that seems impossibly shallow and is great for Keys back country
gunkholing.

Hush! Relatively few people appreciate the benefits of shallow draft, I
don't want all the best anchorages spoiled!


What I did think of doing is simply caulking in the keel, fixing it in place
and dealing with the problem after using is as a motor sailor for a while,
sailing mostly off the wind.

If you're going to do that, why caulk it? Just leave it.

... I also thought of simply using the keel as
inside ballast and welding a fin on the bottom of it. Does sound a bit
sloppy though.

Yep... and you'd have to "Rust Never Sleeps" on the stereo a lot.

Try the water jet idea... I regret not thinking of that myself... and if
all else fails, go ahead and cut the trunk out. That way you can rebuild
it properly, upgrade the pivot bearing & lifting gear, and really finish
up the job properly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Paul Oman wrote:
my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water blaster -enough
pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and
fall out
of the trunk

Now that's a pretty good idea. The mess might be easier to deal with and
easier to avoid cutting away too much fiberglass.

Derek Lawler wrote:
I had thought of selling the boat as is and getting another. I happen to
love the design of this boat and its layout.

Well, it's a Halsey Herreshoff design.


... With the board up it seems to go in
water that seems impossibly shallow and is great for Keys back country
gunkholing.

Hush! Relatively few people appreciate the benefits of shallow draft, I
don't want all the best anchorages spoiled!


What I did think of doing is simply caulking in the keel, fixing it in
place
and dealing with the problem after using is as a motor sailor for a
while,
sailing mostly off the wind.

If you're going to do that, why caulk it? Just leave it.

... I also thought of simply using the keel as
inside ballast and welding a fin on the bottom of it. Does sound a bit
sloppy though.

Yep... and you'd have to "Rust Never Sleeps" on the stereo a lot.

Try the water jet idea... I regret not thinking of that myself... and if
all else fails, go ahead and cut the trunk out. That way you can rebuild
it properly, upgrade the pivot bearing & lifting gear, and really finish
up the job properly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
//////////////////////
Another point, have you ruled out the control being rusted up, if the cable
is rusted theres no way it will move, unless detached.

"Derek Lawler" wrote in message
...
I have a 1978 Chrysler 26 that has sat on a trailer for the last ten years
after being brought back up from Key West to my house in Pompano Beach. I
intend to re-fit the boat and put it back in the water and go sailing,
however, the 1300 pound drop keel seems to have expanded with rust inside
the trunk and it won't come down. I have put a large crowbar through the
cable hole that I expanded some by chipping out the cement. By beating on
the bar with a sledge hammer I only managed to shake the boat on the
trailer
some without any movement of the keel. I can't be the only one in the
world
with this problem so someone out there might have a solution for me. How
can
I get the keel free? Thanks in advance.

Derek Lawler, Pompano Beach, Florida


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Up here, where we have cows, we use Whey instead of WD40.
If you leave metal sitting in Whey, it will actually eat the metal
completely away.
Not hazardous and easy to wash off.
Whey, is the byproduct, left over from making cheese.
Yes I'm a cheesehead from Wisconsin.




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"rebel" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
...

Paul Oman wrote:
my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water
blaster -enough
pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and
fall out
of the trunk

Now that's a pretty good idea. The mess might be easier to deal with and
easier to avoid cutting away too much fiberglass.

Derek Lawler wrote:
I had thought of selling the boat as is and getting another. I happen
to
love the design of this boat and its layout.

Well, it's a Halsey Herreshoff design.


... With the board up it seems to go in
water that seems impossibly shallow and is great for Keys back country
gunkholing.

Hush! Relatively few people appreciate the benefits of shallow draft, I
don't want all the best anchorages spoiled!


What I did think of doing is simply caulking in the keel, fixing it in
place
and dealing with the problem after using is as a motor sailor for a
while,
sailing mostly off the wind.

If you're going to do that, why caulk it? Just leave it.

... I also thought of simply using the keel as
inside ballast and welding a fin on the bottom of it. Does sound a bit
sloppy though.

Yep... and you'd have to "Rust Never Sleeps" on the stereo a lot.

Try the water jet idea... I regret not thinking of that myself... and if
all else fails, go ahead and cut the trunk out. That way you can rebuild
it properly, upgrade the pivot bearing & lifting gear, and really finish
up the job properly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
//////////////////////
Another point, have you ruled out the control being rusted up, if the
cable
is rusted theres no way it will move, unless detached.



I've been sitting back watching this - just have to comment. Assuming that
the pivot and controls are free, then the thing is stuck because the rusted
plate is bigger than the trunk - hence it won't move. Rust is bigger than
the steel it replaces.
So the problem is to remove the rust without taking everything apart. And
ideally without doing too much damage to the casing..
So I'd suggest the water blaster, used to remove and dislodge loose rust
without damaging the casing too much. With some vigorous use of a hammer on
the bottom edge and trying to push the keel UP a little, trying to make some
space for the rust to fall out - followed by more water blasting, repeat
until no more rust is dislodged.
Then I'd think about trying to dissolve or break up the rust chemically -
don't know about the whey idea, but perhaps phosphoric acid. Fumes,
environmental, etc etc issues, but it attacks/dissolves rust and passivates
steel.
I'd stay away from the lubricants, if the rust has expanded so much as to
lock it in place lubricant isn't going to solve the problem - either the
plate and rust has to be made smaller, or the slot has to be made bigger.
And water repellent compounds would preclude using rust dissolvers again.
If you can get it moving even a little, repeat the treatments.

Assuming you can deal with the hazards, it would be easy to set up a drip
system for the acid. I think time and patience may be important here.

Good luck !
David

David Flew wrote:

"rebel" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..

Paul Oman wrote:

my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water

blaster -enough

pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and
fall out
of the trunk

Now that's a pretty good idea. The mess might be easier to deal with and
easier to avoid cutting away too much fiberglass.

Derek Lawler wrote:

I had thought of selling the boat as is and getting another. I happen

to

love the design of this boat and its layout.

Well, it's a Halsey Herreshoff design.



... With the board up it seems to go in
water that seems impossibly shallow and is great for Keys back country
gunkholing.

Hush! Relatively few people appreciate the benefits of shallow draft, I
don't want all the best anchorages spoiled!



What I did think of doing is simply caulking in the keel, fixing it in
place
and dealing with the problem after using is as a motor sailor for a
while,
sailing mostly off the wind.

If you're going to do that, why caulk it? Just leave it.


... I also thought of simply using the keel as
inside ballast and welding a fin on the bottom of it. Does sound a bit
sloppy though.

Yep... and you'd have to "Rust Never Sleeps" on the stereo a lot.

Try the water jet idea... I regret not thinking of that myself... and if
all else fails, go ahead and cut the trunk out. That way you can rebuild
it properly, upgrade the pivot bearing & lifting gear, and really finish
up the job properly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
//////////////////////

Another point, have you ruled out the control being rusted up, if the

cable

is rusted theres no way it will move, unless detached.


I've been sitting back watching this - just have to comment. Assuming that
the pivot and controls are free, then the thing is stuck because the rusted
plate is bigger than the trunk - hence it won't move. Rust is bigger than
the steel it replaces.
So the problem is to remove the rust without taking everything apart. And
ideally without doing too much damage to the casing..
So I'd suggest the water blaster, used to remove and dislodge loose rust
without damaging the casing too much. With some vigorous use of a hammer on
the bottom edge and trying to push the keel UP a little, trying to make some
space for the rust to fall out - followed by more water blasting, repeat
until no more rust is dislodged.
Then I'd think about trying to dissolve or break up the rust chemically -
don't know about the whey idea, but perhaps phosphoric acid. Fumes,
environmental, etc etc issues, but it attacks/dissolves rust and passivates
steel.
I'd stay away from the lubricants, if the rust has expanded so much as to
lock it in place lubricant isn't going to solve the problem - either the
plate and rust has to be made smaller, or the slot has to be made bigger.
And water repellent compounds would preclude using rust dissolvers again.
If you can get it moving even a little, repeat the treatments.

Assuming you can deal with the hazards, it would be easy to set up a drip
system for the acid. I think time and patience may be important here.

Good luck !
David


One choise is to use leeboards for sailing. It may be possible to
get half decent performance that way.

The acid treatment would possibly dissolve fibreglass and iron
together, however there must be some chemical which would
specifically not eat polyglass, while melting rust, like liquid
wrench. If you can decide on a safe compound, could you temporarily
seal the bottom slot, drill a hole or two through the backbone of
the trunk, and dump in a few gallons of the chemical, even circulate
it with a cheap pump? If you give it some time, a week or so, it
might just drop out slick and shiney.

To get my SC22 keel to lower while on the trailer, I had the centre
cut out of the trailer and rigged so it would bolt back in, so I
could easily change the c/b cable while on the yard, every year like
a safety freak.

You do have the cable loosened off, right?

If the keel is a gob of rust, the cable and winch can't be much
better. So, you are into heart surgurey, anyway. If the keel is
free to drop, cable cut, space available, pillow or catcher's mitt
under the heavy piece of steel, you don't want the board to keep
going once it starts to swing down, with no restraint, it would tear
the back end out of the trunk and mangle the pivot bolt and area,
and the sacraficial catcher bolt included for just such an
occurrence, as happenned to me when the cable broke in deep water.
If felt like an earthquake. Get your chainsaw out and slice off at
least part of the top of the trunk near the cable hole so you can
get a real good swing with a big hammer out of the companionway hatch.

Bash the **** out of it for an hour, I bet it'll slide out. If not,
consider a frame rail, get a chain around the keel end attached to
the lifting hole, pulling down to the frame rail, jack up the boat
snug against the chain and then bash the **** out of it some more.
Then reglass the trunk bits back together.

I don't know if trying to cut the rust with a diamond saw would work
out, but big saws can be rented, and guides constructed to allow a
diamond blade to do it's worst. You will want to arrange for
cooling water flow to protect the nearby glass and the blade. Bring
a leather apron, strong boots, gloves, hard hat, ear defenders, a
mask and googlies. You will likewise want to restrain a board come
free unexpectedly.

Oh, by the way, before you start....

My c/b was hung up on the cable clamp and wear bolt, it had been
tightened up too much, and unfortunately snagged. I beat on the
keel using a punch down from the cable hole. Three little taps and
a wiggle and it fell out like, ..the infinite? Lumber? Gravity
a'home? There was a few inches slack and even at that, there was
quit a thump when it fetched up.

'course, yours is jammed tight, won't even wiggle, right? can't even
get a handsaw in there, or a sawzall? Must be an awful mess. Is it
rust or a mix of rust and banacles? Vinegar will dissolve barnacles.

I though once that it would have been nice to have a big C clamp
rigged to stop the wobbly-bonkers from fighting in a rolly sea. I
had at least an inch each side of the board.

Good luck!

Terry K

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:57:32 +1100, "David Flew"
wrote:
///
So the problem is to remove the rust without taking everything apart. And
ideally without doing too much damage to the casing..
So I'd suggest the water blaster, used to remove and dislodge loose rust
without damaging the casing too much. With some vigorous use of a hammer on
the bottom edge and trying to push the keel UP a little, trying to make some
space for the rust to fall out - followed by more water blasting, repeat
until no more rust is dislodged.
Then I'd think about trying to dissolve or break up the rust chemically -
don't know about the whey idea, but perhaps phosphoric acid.
///
Good luck !
David

Another tried and trusted rust breaker is saturated salt in vinegar.
It can be cheaper than Phosphoric, and it is slimming, Where
phosphoric leaves a phosphate coat, salt n vinegar leaves shiny
metal..

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Derek Lawler wrote:

Thanks a lot for all the creative ideas from a crew of sailors. If the keel
does come loose it only has a foot to fall onto a steel box girder running
lengthwise of the tandem trailer. The cable had been cut and the cable hole
enlarged to accept a large crowbar---next time a bigger sledge hammer. I
had tried to insert a hand saw to no avail---no room for it.
One thing I attempted was to drill and tap the trailing edge of the keel and
put in a ring bolt, hook it up to a "come along" secured to the trailer with
a snatch block and tighten it up so the downward force of the "come-along"
would keep on tension and at the same time beat on a steel rod aimed down
the cable hole on top of the keel.
I couldn't get a drill bit into the keel so I am going to try and grind off
enough rust (to bright metal) and use a tungsten tipped bit. I didn't think
a casting would be so hard to drill.
This method is just using brute force to move it and if that doesn't work I
will try some of the chemical/solvent or high pressure water jet methods
suggested. Thanks again.
Derek

--------------

please keep us posted as to the progress you make. We are all interested!

paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:05:51 -0500, DSK wrote:


Paul Oman wrote:
my suggestion would be a high pressure water jet - water blaster -enough pressure
and enough water and all the expanded rust would, I think, come off and fall out
of the trunk

Now that's a pretty good idea. The mess might be easier to deal with and
easier to avoid cutting away too much fiberglass.

Derek Lawler wrote:
I had thought of selling the boat as is and getting another. I happen to
love the design of this boat and its layout.

Well, it's a Halsey Herreshoff design.


... With the board up it seems to go in
water that seems impossibly shallow and is great for Keys back country
gunkholing.

Hush! Relatively few people appreciate the benefits of shallow draft, I
don't want all the best anchorages spoiled!


What I did think of doing is simply caulking in the keel, fixing it in place
and dealing with the problem after using is as a motor sailor for a while,
sailing mostly off the wind.

If you're going to do that, why caulk it? Just leave it.

... I also thought of simply using the keel as
inside ballast and welding a fin on the bottom of it. Does sound a bit
sloppy though.

Yep... and you'd have to "Rust Never Sleeps" on the stereo a lot.

My boat had an external cast iron keel with a steel plate centerboard that
retracted into it. I ended up dropping the keel, using a sawsal with a long
bimetalic blade to cut the centerboard and its bronze hinge pin loose working
from above. The replacement centerboard is being made up of solid fiberglass.
At least it wont rust.

JJ

Try the water jet idea... I regret not thinking of that myself... and if
all else fails, go ahead and cut the trunk out. That way you can rebuild
it properly, upgrade the pivot bearing & lifting gear, and really finish
up the job properly.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


James Johnson
remove the "dot" from after sail in email address to reply