looking for sheet flotation foam
 

Hello,

Does anyone know of an inexpensive sheet foam suitable for use as flotation?
Possible sources in the western US?

Thanks

"Ed Lindsey" ) writes:
Hello,

Does anyone know of an inexpensive sheet foam suitable for use as flotation?
Possible sources in the western US?

closed cell rigid foam sheets can be purchased at building supply stores, also
known as home improvement stores. they come in blue and pink (blue for boys?).
but it's cheapest when it's discarded at construction sites.

white styrofoam is cheaper, is not closed cell which means water can get
into it, but might be okay for some situations. I don't know if it's legal
to use or even if there is any law covering what kind of foam you can use
on boats.


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If you are going to put this foam in something else, I wonder if that
expanding "Great Stuff" spray foam would be of help. (home depot,
lowes, etc).

If, for instance, you were thinking of putting your sheet in a hold or
something, you could spray this expandable foam instead.
I don't know if it 'likes' to be wet and turns to a sponge - but that
you could easily test for.

Regards,
Remco

"Remco" wrote in message
oups.com...
If you are going to put this foam in something else, I wonder if that
expanding "Great Stuff" spray foam would be of help. (home depot,
lowes, etc).

If, for instance, you were thinking of putting your sheet in a hold or
something, you could spray this expandable foam instead.
I don't know if it 'likes' to be wet and turns to a sponge - but that
you could easily test for.

Regards,
Remco


No, it doesn't (help/work well). Froth-Pak by Dow, or Fomo Hand-Foam, by
Fomo is closed cell and far cheaper for the volume needed. GS is open cell
and will absorb moisture readily, and be very expensive for any but crack
sealing.

I just went through this for my boat (not for floatation, but for
insulation, but the principle's the same).

From my notes:

froth pak 888-868-1183 option 2 local guy rep sez ok careful about
expansion http://www.dow.com/pusystems/product/fpport.htm will help you
calculate volume needs

fomo.com spray in, $42 for 2cf (where to buy?)

1 330.753.4585, home office

I wound up going with Fomo as it was available in larger (2CF rather than
only 1CF) small sizes, and cheaper, too.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Hi Skip
Thanks for setting that straight and doing the leg work -- I have been
wondering for a while if that stuff is a viable solution and clearly it
isn't.
Regards,
Remco

Ed,

I'm sure that your local foam supplier (see the yellow pages) can get the
foam you need. I went to the one here, "The Foam Man" in Corvallis, Oregon,
and bought several sample of different types of closed-cell foam to test
them. I weighed each piece ahead of time (dry) and measured the dimensions
(rectangular pieces). Then I tied each one to a brick and dropped it in a
bucket of water where I left it for 8 months out in the shop, filling as
necessary to make up for evaporation. With all the dust in the shop and
mosquitoes trying to set up shop in the buckets, there was slime and
who-knows-what growing in it ...short of using seawater and tossing in some
oil and gas, I figured this was a pretty good emulation of a typical bilge
where you might add flotation. After the 8 months, I took the blocks out,
brushed them with a potato brush under running water to remove slime, padded
'barely dry' on the outside with paper towels just to get rid of sheet water
on the foam, then weighed and measured each piece.

I forget now all the types of foam that I tested, but the clear winner was
closed-cell polyethylene (blue). They all absorb water over time, but the
blue poly only gave up 3% of it's flotation capability (3% of the displaced
water) and only swelled up about 3% in volume too. I followed this test by
putting the blocks of foam in Ziploc bags for a couple of weeks, one end
left open, to emulate a little trailer time for 'drying'. The blue poly was
still wet and there was lots of condensation in the bag after a couple of
weeks (not very good ventilation in/out of the bag), but the poly had given
up half the absorbed water anyway.

My conclusion was that the sealed-cell blue poly was an acceptable
flotation foam. In my case, I was looking for something that could be cut
to fit and installed, but could still be removed later on. Can't stand that
expanding polyurethane foam ...everybody that I know that has used it in
their boat has reported that it eventually becomes water logged and sloppy.
It is best used in compartments that normally stay dry, not wet.

Hope this info helps. For my boat project (see
http://www.reelboats.com ), I'll have cut-to-fit sealed-cell blue
polyethylene foam in the closed compartments, and will be able to remove the
foam via large rectangular deck plates installed in the bottom of cabinets
(not accessible to water on the deck ...deck plates leak). I'm going to run
a nylon strap or rope through the first block that goes in so I can pull the
blocks back out later on. It'll push the others towards the deck plate as I
pull it out.

Brian D




"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Does anyone know of an inexpensive sheet foam suitable for use as
flotation? Possible sources in the western US?

Thanks

First, thanks to everyone who weighed in on floation foam. sounds like the
blue sheet foam is what I need. It will be glued to under gunnels and
inside transom lockers, so expanding foam is ot an option.

Brian, Sounds like you did a lot of work. Thanks for sharing the process
and results. Blue foam it is, and a helluva lot less expensive then the
stuff I was finding.

Ed
"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Ed,

I'm sure that your local foam supplier (see the yellow pages) can get the
foam you need. I went to the one here, "The Foam Man" in Corvallis,
Oregon, and bought several sample of different types of closed-cell foam
to test them. I weighed each piece ahead of time (dry) and measured the
dimensions (rectangular pieces). Then I tied each one to a brick and
dropped it in a bucket of water where I left it for 8 months out in the
shop, filling as necessary to make up for evaporation. With all the dust
in the shop and mosquitoes trying to set up shop in the buckets, there was
slime and who-knows-what growing in it ...short of using seawater and
tossing in some oil and gas, I figured this was a pretty good emulation of
a typical bilge where you might add flotation. After the 8 months, I took
the blocks out, brushed them with a potato brush under running water to
remove slime, padded 'barely dry' on the outside with paper towels just to
get rid of sheet water on the foam, then weighed and measured each piece.

I forget now all the types of foam that I tested, but the clear winner
was closed-cell polyethylene (blue). They all absorb water over time, but
the blue poly only gave up 3% of it's flotation capability (3% of the
displaced water) and only swelled up about 3% in volume too. I followed
this test by putting the blocks of foam in Ziploc bags for a couple of
weeks, one end left open, to emulate a little trailer time for 'drying'.
The blue poly was still wet and there was lots of condensation in the bag
after a couple of weeks (not very good ventilation in/out of the bag), but
the poly had given up half the absorbed water anyway.

My conclusion was that the sealed-cell blue poly was an acceptable
flotation foam. In my case, I was looking for something that could be cut
to fit and installed, but could still be removed later on. Can't stand
that expanding polyurethane foam ...everybody that I know that has used it
in their boat has reported that it eventually becomes water logged and
sloppy. It is best used in compartments that normally stay dry, not wet.

Hope this info helps. For my boat project (see
http://www.reelboats.com ), I'll have cut-to-fit sealed-cell blue
polyethylene foam in the closed compartments, and will be able to remove
the foam via large rectangular deck plates installed in the bottom of
cabinets (not accessible to water on the deck ...deck plates leak). I'm
going to run a nylon strap or rope through the first block that goes in so
I can pull the blocks back out later on. It'll push the others towards
the deck plate as I pull it out.

Brian D




"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Does anyone know of an inexpensive sheet foam suitable for use as
flotation? Possible sources in the western US?

Thanks

"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
First, thanks to everyone who weighed in on floation foam. sounds like
the blue sheet foam is what I need. It will be glued to under gunnels and
inside transom lockers, so expanding foam is ot an option.

Brian, Sounds like you did a lot of work. Thanks for sharing the process
and results. Blue foam it is, and a helluva lot less expensive then the
stuff I was finding.

Just one note - "Blue" is Dow foam; the "Pink" by Owens-Corning is very
similar in most respects The folks in Midland Michigan (Dow country) might
take issue. As I recall, Dow had a number of different blue foams, for
different applications. When I visited them some years back, they were even
developing a vermin/marine growth resistant formulation) Which you choose
depends on what lumberyard you frequent. There may be other brands, as well.

Sal's Dad

"Sal's Dad" ) writes:

Just one note - "Blue" is Dow foam; the "Pink" by Owens-Corning is very
similar in most respects The folks in Midland Michigan (Dow country) might
take issue. As I recall, Dow had a number of different blue foams, for
different applications. When I visited them some years back, they were even
developing a vermin/marine growth resistant formulation) Which you choose
depends on what lumberyard you frequent. There may be other brands, as well.

The home improvent stores around here sell regular and high density. I'd
use the regular. It's cheaper and lighter so it has more floatation. The
higher density board is stronger, heavier, and costs more.


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The blue closed-cell polyethylene is great for under decks, but I wonder how
well it will glue to something. You might try Liquid Nails or similar I
suppose. OTOH, there's another foam which is a high density closed-cell
polystyrene ('styrofoam') that's coated with primer type coating ready for
painting. Builders use it for something. Can't remember the name, but it
struck me as something that could look nice under a gunnel since it's above
the waterline. You can epoxy and paint right over it. Note that the blue
foam does distort a little when it stays wet for weeks or months at a time.
I'm going to use it under the decks, but haven't made a final decision on
other flotation in the boat. I need to calculate how much I need and figure
out where to hide it.

Brian D




"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
First, thanks to everyone who weighed in on floation foam. sounds like
the blue sheet foam is what I need. It will be glued to under gunnels and
inside transom lockers, so expanding foam is ot an option.

Brian, Sounds like you did a lot of work. Thanks for sharing the process
and results. Blue foam it is, and a helluva lot less expensive then the
stuff I was finding.

Ed
"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Ed,

I'm sure that your local foam supplier (see the yellow pages) can get
the foam you need. I went to the one here, "The Foam Man" in Corvallis,
Oregon, and bought several sample of different types of closed-cell foam
to test them. I weighed each piece ahead of time (dry) and measured the
dimensions (rectangular pieces). Then I tied each one to a brick and
dropped it in a bucket of water where I left it for 8 months out in the
shop, filling as necessary to make up for evaporation. With all the dust
in the shop and mosquitoes trying to set up shop in the buckets, there
was slime and who-knows-what growing in it ...short of using seawater and
tossing in some oil and gas, I figured this was a pretty good emulation
of a typical bilge where you might add flotation. After the 8 months, I
took the blocks out, brushed them with a potato brush under running water
to remove slime, padded 'barely dry' on the outside with paper towels
just to get rid of sheet water on the foam, then weighed and measured
each piece.

I forget now all the types of foam that I tested, but the clear winner
was closed-cell polyethylene (blue). They all absorb water over time,
but the blue poly only gave up 3% of it's flotation capability (3% of the
displaced water) and only swelled up about 3% in volume too. I followed
this test by putting the blocks of foam in Ziploc bags for a couple of
weeks, one end left open, to emulate a little trailer time for 'drying'.
The blue poly was still wet and there was lots of condensation in the bag
after a couple of weeks (not very good ventilation in/out of the bag),
but the poly had given up half the absorbed water anyway.

My conclusion was that the sealed-cell blue poly was an acceptable
flotation foam. In my case, I was looking for something that could be
cut to fit and installed, but could still be removed later on. Can't
stand that expanding polyurethane foam ...everybody that I know that has
used it in their boat has reported that it eventually becomes water
logged and sloppy. It is best used in compartments that normally stay
dry, not wet.

Hope this info helps. For my boat project (see
http://www.reelboats.com ), I'll have cut-to-fit sealed-cell blue
polyethylene foam in the closed compartments, and will be able to remove
the foam via large rectangular deck plates installed in the bottom of
cabinets (not accessible to water on the deck ...deck plates leak). I'm
going to run a nylon strap or rope through the first block that goes in
so I can pull the blocks back out later on. It'll push the others
towards the deck plate as I pull it out.

Brian D




"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
Hello,

Does anyone know of an inexpensive sheet foam suitable for use as
flotation? Possible sources in the western US?

Thanks

I wonder where one could get some of the vermin/growth resistant variety?
I'll check around ...thanks for the heads up.

Brian D



"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...

"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
First, thanks to everyone who weighed in on floation foam. sounds like
the blue sheet foam is what I need. It will be glued to under gunnels
and inside transom lockers, so expanding foam is ot an option.

Brian, Sounds like you did a lot of work. Thanks for sharing the
process and results. Blue foam it is, and a helluva lot less expensive
then the stuff I was finding.

Just one note - "Blue" is Dow foam; the "Pink" by Owens-Corning is very
similar in most respects The folks in Midland Michigan (Dow country)
might take issue. As I recall, Dow had a number of different blue foams,
for different applications. When I visited them some years back, they
were even developing a vermin/marine growth resistant formulation) Which
you choose depends on what lumberyard you frequent. There may be other
brands, as well.

Sal's Dad

If they did go forward with that product, it would probably be in the big
billets they sell for dock floats. Your local distributor will probably
have no clue; my information came from a Dow product manager, 6 or 8 or 10
years ago; at that time they were working on development.

Sal's Dad

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I wonder where one could get some of the vermin/growth resistant variety?
I'll check around ...thanks for the heads up.

Brian D



"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...

"Ed Lindsey" wrote in message
...
First, thanks to everyone who weighed in on floation foam. sounds like
the blue sheet foam is what I need. It will be glued to under gunnels
and inside transom lockers, so expanding foam is ot an option.

Brian, Sounds like you did a lot of work. Thanks for sharing the
process and results. Blue foam it is, and a helluva lot less expensive
then the stuff I was finding.

Just one note - "Blue" is Dow foam; the "Pink" by Owens-Corning is very
similar in most respects The folks in Midland Michigan (Dow country)
might take issue. As I recall, Dow had a number of different blue foams,
for different applications. When I visited them some years back, they
were even developing a vermin/marine growth resistant formulation) Which
you choose depends on what lumberyard you frequent. There may be other
brands, as well.

Sal's Dad

I built a failed experimental dory using Pink foam - 1" and 2", sheathed
with epoxy/glass. More than 15 years later, it's still deteriorating in the
yard - the epoxy/foam bond was never a problem. Very
expensive/time-consuming for trying out a lousy design. But it was light,
strong, and unsinkable!

As I recall, my brother built a pink foam kayak, maybe sheathed in
polyester/glass. I vaguely remember problems with the polyester bond in a
structural application.

I've used foam/epoxy in a number of applications, including a sponsons on my
daughter's kayak. Glue it on, as many layers thick as you like, and then
shape with a razor knife or electric sander. My guess is you'll be able to
find a good cheap primer or paint for it. Or just leave it "bright"!


And be careful with terminology - I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of
products out there, and most people use incorrect names for them.

Sal's Dad

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

The blue closed-cell polyethylene is great for under decks, but I wonder
how well it will glue to something. You might try Liquid Nails or similar
I suppose. OTOH, there's another foam which is a high density closed-cell
polystyrene ('styrofoam') that's coated with primer type coating ready for
painting. Builders use it for something. Can't remember the name, but it
struck me as something that could look nice under a gunnel since it's
above the waterline. You can epoxy and paint right over it. Note that
the blue foam does distort a little when it stays wet for weeks or months
at a time. I'm going to use it under the decks, but haven't made a final
decision on other flotation in the boat. I need to calculate how much I
need and figure out where to hide it.

Brian D

"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...
I built a failed experimental dory using Pink foam - 1" and 2", sheathed
with epoxy/glass. More than 15 years later, it's still deteriorating in
the yard - the epoxy/foam bond was never a problem. Very
expensive/time-consuming for trying out a lousy design. But it was light,
strong, and unsinkable!

(snip)

If it was light, strong and unsinkable, why was it a "failed" experiment?

"Sal's Dad" wrote in message
...
I built a failed experimental dory using Pink foam - 1" and 2", sheathed
with epoxy/glass. More than 15 years later, it's still deteriorating in
the yard - the epoxy/foam bond was never a problem. Very
expensive/time-consuming for trying out a lousy design. But it was light,
strong, and unsinkable!

(snip)

If it was light, strong and unsinkable, why was it a "failed" experiment?


It was expensive and time-consuming. And oh yes, the hull shape was very
unstable, inefficient, slow, and one or two other problems.

But upside down under a tree, it makes a nice warm winter home for
porcupines.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:20:09 -0800, Brian D wrote:

[snip]

I forget now all the types of foam that I tested, but the clear winner was
closed-cell polyethylene (blue).

Are you sure it wasn't polystyrene? I haven't shopped foams too much, but
in my limited meanderings I haven't seen polyethylene foam for sale.

Just wondering.

--Mac

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think it'll be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D



"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:20:09 -0800, Brian D wrote:

[snip]

I forget now all the types of foam that I tested, but the clear winner
was
closed-cell polyethylene (blue).

Are you sure it wasn't polystyrene? I haven't shopped foams too much, but
in my limited meanderings I haven't seen polyethylene foam for sale.

Just wondering.

--Mac

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam
known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think it'll
be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D


I'd bet he meant polyurethane. "Blue" and "Pink" board are that - and epoxy
does just fine with them.

L8R

Skip, using it for the reefer/freezer rebuild

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:25:09 -0500, Skip Gundlach wrote:

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam
known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think it'll
be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D


I'd bet he meant polyurethane. "Blue" and "Pink" board are that - and epoxy
does just fine with them.

L8R

Skip, using it for the reefer/freezer rebuild

You can buy blue styrene foam, too. At this point, I believe Brian D that
the foam is polyethylene.

--Mac

Yes, my foam supplier is very knowledgeable (even if I'm not) and I've
talked to him about the foam several times in addition to buying some and
testing it. It is closed-cell polyETHYLENE foam. Do a web search. It is
also used for filling mat-type boat fenders, plastic kayaks, and several
other marine related applications. And no, epoxy won't stick to it worth a
darn.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:25:09 -0500, Skip Gundlach wrote:

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam
known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think
it'll
be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D


I'd bet he meant polyurethane. "Blue" and "Pink" board are that - and
epoxy
does just fine with them.

L8R

Skip, using it for the reefer/freezer rebuild

You can buy blue styrene foam, too. At this point, I believe Brian D that
the foam is polyethylene.

--Mac

Hey ...look what I found:

http://www.fluidzone.com/pages/?pageID=558&wordsID=812

Great info on a variety of closed-cell polyethylene (and polypropylene)
foams.

Brian D




"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:25:09 -0500, Skip Gundlach wrote:

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam
known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think
it'll
be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D


I'd bet he meant polyurethane. "Blue" and "Pink" board are that - and
epoxy
does just fine with them.

L8R

Skip, using it for the reefer/freezer rebuild

You can buy blue styrene foam, too. At this point, I believe Brian D that
the foam is polyethylene.

--Mac

I just stepped out to the garage to look at some of the rigid blue house
insulation foam. It says Dow styrofoam, extruded polystyrene. Different
animal but closed cell.

"Brian D" ) writes:
Yes, my foam supplier is very knowledgeable (even if I'm not) and I've
talked to him about the foam several times in addition to buying some and
testing it. It is closed-cell polyETHYLENE foam. Do a web search. It is
also used for filling mat-type boat fenders, plastic kayaks, and several
other marine related applications. And no, epoxy won't stick to it worth a
darn.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:25:09 -0500, Skip Gundlach wrote:

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

Nope. Polyethylene for sure. The local guy sells every kind of foam
known
to man and if it's not in the shop, he can get it. He told me it was
closed-cell polyethylene. I doubt epoxy sticks to it. But I think
it'll
be
fine for cut-to-shape blocks below the deck (large enough pieces so they
don't get lost on a bad holing of course ...grinz).

Brian D


I'd bet he meant polyurethane. "Blue" and "Pink" board are that - and
epoxy
does just fine with them.

L8R

Skip, using it for the reefer/freezer rebuild

You can buy blue styrene foam, too. At this point, I believe Brian D that
the foam is polyethylene.

--Mac





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