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water in engine oil - How Common ?
Hello :
I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:15:56 GMT, Ralph Modica
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email I DAGS for "water ingestion" volvo boat and it was pretty scary. Ho9wever, is your engine still under warranty? Needs pursuit if so. Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph ************************************************** *** Dogs are better than people. People are better than dogs for only one purpose. And then it's only half of ofthe people. And _then_ most of them are only ordinary anyway. And then they have a headache......... |
Common in engines that weren't cared for. Bad in any case. If it's under
warranty, take it back and make them fix it before it completely destroys itself. -- Keith __ I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory. "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
Check the head gasket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Old Nick" ha scritto nel messaggio ... On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:15:56 GMT, Ralph Modica vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email I DAGS for "water ingestion" volvo boat and it was pretty scary. Ho9wever, is your engine still under warranty? Needs pursuit if so. Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph ************************************************** *** Dogs are better than people. People are better than dogs for only one purpose. And then it's only half of ofthe people. And _then_ most of them are only ordinary anyway. And then they have a headache......... |
Your explanation makes sense: I have seen it often in inboards. Since
it is a new engine, there is little chance of a crack in the heat exchanger(s) or head gasket. I do not trust your mechanics explanation, it is NOT NORMAL, never, to have water in the oil. Jacques www.bateau.com Ralph Modica wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
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Ralph,
This valve timing thing is a wives tale. All gasoline engines have some valve overlap. The overlap uses gas inertia to breathe better and increase the vollumetric efficiency. Typically, high performance engines use 106 degree valve centers and torque/ mid-speed work engines use between 108 and 114 degree centers. In all these cases, gas direction reversal only takes place at very low speed and low throttle settings. (idle) The term for this is reversion. This is what causes carborators to become black. It is exhaust deposits. This can be a problem if there is excessive exhaust system back pressure. However, in a marine environment, this would never cause water in the oil, even if water vapor was being ingested at low speed, it would be exhausted on the next cycle. It might make the idle a bit rough, but that is all. My experience indicates a faulty exhaust manifold casting. Many of these are porous or cracked and the water jacket, being higher than the head, allows water to leak into the exhaust ports at shutdown and because the engine is stopped, the water will slowly leak past the rings into the pan. Another responder mentioned a head gasket leak and of course this is possible, but on a relatively new engine, highly unlikely. To test for a faulty manifold casting, it is necessary to use block off plates to the water jacket and charge the water jacket with compressed air and watch for leakdown. Steve "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
Ralph Modica wrote:
Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph Not so uncommon and may be due to a malfunctioning of the exhaust/raw water discharge circuit. Sometimes it is just a vent that is plugged and permits a backflow of water into the cylinders after shutting off the engine. The water, then, seeps between the pistons and the cylinder walls into the sump. Sometimes this problem, if not understood early, may cause the blow up of the engine head at the next attempt to start the engine. Anyway if you realize it right away you may prevent fatal consequences. Flush the oil sump several times with new oil and brand new oil filters letting the engine run between oil changes for few minutes. Repeat until the oil becomes unmistakenly clear of water contamination; usually 2-3 times (or more) right away and then once more after few hours of functioning. Be very careful to watch the oil pressure gauge: one of the problems is that water in the system makes the pressure erratical and you should never let the engine run with no oil pressure for more than few seconds. It happened to my old Perkins 4.108 but, after the cure, the engine continued its normal life (well... hopefully... it happened two summers ago!). Daniel |
Has this engine been overheated? If so all bets are off it could be any
water gasket surface especially the head! Or a cracked block/cylinder wall. It is probably a problem of this nature and the dealer/mechanic is afraid he may have to repair the engine under warranty and he doesn't want to. Have it looked at by an independent mechanic. I have run too many boats with thru transom, over the transom exhausts as well as every conceivable through the leg and silent choice type setup. Water and oil should not mix, period! In older boats, 5+ years old, it is common for the risers to leak. There usually is a rust line at the joint. This will cause water to drip back into the exhaust manifold and eventually will find it's way to the cylinder and the oil. It is normal maintenance to pull the manifolds and risers at 5 years to check. Some say just replace them there going to go soon anyway, even if they look ok now. Salt water of course makes this all that much worse!. John Marine mechanic for too many years "Steve Lusardi" wrote in message ... Ralph, This valve timing thing is a wives tale. All gasoline engines have some valve overlap. The overlap uses gas inertia to breathe better and increase the vollumetric efficiency. Typically, high performance engines use 106 degree valve centers and torque/ mid-speed work engines use between 108 and 114 degree centers. In all these cases, gas direction reversal only takes place at very low speed and low throttle settings. (idle) The term for this is reversion. This is what causes carborators to become black. It is exhaust deposits. This can be a problem if there is excessive exhaust system back pressure. However, in a marine environment, this would never cause water in the oil, even if water vapor was being ingested at low speed, it would be exhausted on the next cycle. It might make the idle a bit rough, but that is all. My experience indicates a faulty exhaust manifold casting. Many of these are porous or cracked and the water jacket, being higher than the head, allows water to leak into the exhaust ports at shutdown and because the engine is stopped, the water will slowly leak past the rings into the pan. Another responder mentioned a head gasket leak and of course this is possible, but on a relatively new engine, highly unlikely. To test for a faulty manifold casting, it is necessary to use block off plates to the water jacket and charge the water jacket with compressed air and watch for leakdown. Steve "Ralph Modica" wrote in message ... Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph |
It took me about a dozen oil changes to get rid of water in a merc 502.
-- Keith __ Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world. -- Dave Barry "Daniel" wrote in message ... Ralph Modica wrote: Hello : I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta I/O. Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting the boat in the water at a launch ramp. Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine gasket. IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion. I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further details ? Thanks in advance ! Ralph Not so uncommon and may be due to a malfunctioning of the exhaust/raw water discharge circuit. Sometimes it is just a vent that is plugged and permits a backflow of water into the cylinders after shutting off the engine. The water, then, seeps between the pistons and the cylinder walls into the sump. Sometimes this problem, if not understood early, may cause the blow up of the engine head at the next attempt to start the engine. Anyway if you realize it right away you may prevent fatal consequences. Flush the oil sump several times with new oil and brand new oil filters letting the engine run between oil changes for few minutes. Repeat until the oil becomes unmistakenly clear of water contamination; usually 2-3 times (or more) right away and then once more after few hours of functioning. Be very careful to watch the oil pressure gauge: one of the problems is that water in the system makes the pressure erratical and you should never let the engine run with no oil pressure for more than few seconds. It happened to my old Perkins 4.108 but, after the cure, the engine continued its normal life (well... hopefully... it happened two summers ago!). Daniel |
Daniel wrote in message
Ralph Not so uncommon and may be due to a malfunctioning of the exhaust/raw water discharge circuit. Sometimes it is just a vent that is plugged and permits a backflow of water into the cylinders after shutting off the engine. The water, then, seeps between the pistons and the cylinder walls into the sump. Sometimes this problem, if not understood early, may cause the blow up of the engine head at the next attempt to start the engine. I second that. Also look in an exhaust system design flaw. Could the seawater siphon back? Jacques http://bateau.com |
The same thing applies to fuel in the oil. 4-stroke motors need to run hot
for awhile to get rid of (vaporize) fuel that makes it past the rings and into the oil. 4-stroke motors that are cooled by seawater rather than a separate freshwater system are the most prone to this ...run them too hot and the salt crystallizes in the galleys (must use a cooler thermostat) but if they aren't run hot enough, then fuel ends up diluting the oil. This is one of the best reasons to NOT have a seawater cooling system. A freshwater system can allow the motor to run hotter, thereby vaporizing water and fuel out of the oil, without crystallizing salt in the galleys. Brian D "Dan Thomas" wrote in message om... (Jacques) wrote in message . com... Daniel wrote in message Ralph Not so uncommon and may be due to a malfunctioning of the exhaust/raw water discharge circuit. Sometimes it is just a vent that is plugged and permits a backflow of water into the cylinders after shutting off the engine. The water, then, seeps between the pistons and the cylinder walls into the sump. Sometimes this problem, if not understood early, may cause the blow up of the engine head at the next attempt to start the engine. I second that. Also look in an exhaust system design flaw. Could the seawater siphon back? Jacques http://bateau.com Water is commonly found in engine crankcases where the engine is run for short periods. Water vapour is a byproduct of combustion, and as there's always a bit of combustion gas escaping past the rings into the case, it will condense there and mix with the oil. The engine needs to be run long enough to get the oil up to 180 degrees for a half-hour or better to eliminate water that accumulated during a cold run. What's your block temp like? Too cool? Do you have an oil temp gauge? Are you running the engine for a few minutes in the off-season to "circulate the oil?" Bad deal. Oil breaks down in the presence of water and metals, and forms acids from the sulfur and chlorine compounds in the oil. Corrosion of bearings and other stuff happens. It's what wrecks the engines in older cars and aircraft that have low hours or miles on them: they look good to a buyer, but the damage is inside, unseen. Trying to convince people that short runs are bad is often impossible. Dan |
Jacques wrote:
Daniel wrote in message Ralph Not so uncommon and may be due to a malfunctioning of the exhaust/raw water discharge circuit. Sometimes it is just a vent that is plugged and permits a backflow of water into the cylinders after shutting off the engine. The water, then, seeps between the pistons and the cylinder walls into the sump. Sometimes this problem, if not understood early, may cause the blow up of the engine head at the next attempt to start the engine. I second that. Also look in an exhaust system design flaw. Could the seawater siphon back? Jacques http://bateau.com Ralph, this is exactely what I was trying to say but I missed the proper word "siphon". In my engine there is a vent (actually a small copper tube that goes overboard) in the highest point of the sal****er circuit discharge, before the latter joins the water-cooled/wet part of the exhaust. This vent avoids sal****er siphoning into an engine installed below the waterline. And mind it: the siphoning is not through the exhaust outlet that, usually, is out of the water, but the other way round, through the sal****er pump and its inlet seacock. Regarding moisture condensation in cold engines, this is mainly a problem of muffler rusting in cars. What the starter of the thread had in mind (and me too) was more than a quarter of water emulsioned with oil in the sump. Something that makes you think: "gee, finally my engine has stopped burning oil...!!!!" Daniel |
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