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alcohol vs gas stoves
What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat
(20')? Thanks, Grainger |
You should post this question to rec.boats.cruising .
Alcohol Pro- It's safer- alcohol will not explode and fires can be put out with water. Some alcohol stoves are simple and compact. Con- Most alcohol stoves don't heat very hot. A few do. Fuel is expensive. It takes a couple of minutes to start a pressurized alcohol stove. It's hard to find a big-oven alcohol stove. Propane- Pro- Fuel is widely available and inexpensive Most stoves heat vigorously Stoves available in small and large sizes, including ovens and broilers Con- Propane is heavier than air and , at the right concentration, can explode. Not a good thing. Making a propane stove system safe on a boat is complicated. The design of tank enclosures, piping, shutoff systems and bilge sniffers is nontrivial and can add significant cost and complication. Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) My knowledge of this is old. Dunno if these are still viable. pro- gas is lighter than air, so much safer than propane The other plusses of propane con- tanks and equipment were expensive and distribution never got widespread. Butane I'll let others fill this in. For some people, kerosene or diesel could be a good solution, too. Grainger Morris wrote: What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? Thanks, Grainger |
on most 20' boats, the very best is a butane chafing stove, available often
under $18 (close out store), and nearly as often for $85 (chandleries) and in between (department stores). An okay second is an Origo 1500 non-pressurized alcohol stove everything else is something else, and not a hell of a lot better than a coffe can filled with sand and some gasoline set on fire (I have cooked on such). What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? Thanks, Grainger |
The $18 solution is appealing. Is butane heavier than air?
JAXAshby wrote: on most 20' boats, the very best is a butane chafing stove, available often under $18 (close out store), and nearly as often for $85 (chandleries) and in between (department stores). An okay second is an Origo 1500 non-pressurized alcohol stove everything else is something else, and not a hell of a lot better than a coffe can filled with sand and some gasoline set on fire (I have cooked on such). What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? Thanks, Grainger |
The $18 solution is appealing. Is butane heavier than air?
yes. it is best to store the cartridges outside the cabin. |
Grainger Morris wrote:
What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? Thanks, Grainger I have used, alcohol wet pot and pressure, kerosene pressure with torch preheaters, and propane camp stoves aboard various sailboats. We also have a sterno swing boiler, but only tried it once. Sterno is, how shall I say, SSSSSSsssssslllllloooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwww. Preheater pressure stoves are OK for cooking, but a royal chore to get going, no matter the type. Alcohol os just as flammable as gas, but cool, and the flame is invisible, until your shirt catched fire. Propane: twist a knob, spark a barbeque lighter, and presto! It's magic! The propane won, 15 years ago, and I'm sticking with it. The small tanks are kept under bungee in the cockpit when not in use. All is well. We camp aboard most weekends or at least have lunch or supper aboard, while fishing at the mooring or watching the sun slide out of the sky behind "our" mountain. Generally, we cook supper, do the dishes, then put the tank outside. Breakfast, we bring in the tank, eat, clean up, stow the tank back in the cockpit, where there is room for four beside the rudder post, put the folded camp stove under a q-berth bin, and that's it. The galley area is not dominated by no stinkin' old stove except during cookery. The stove is also useful in other locations and it serves as a winter spare in case of power outages to keep the coffee hot until the power returns. We actually have about 3 camp stoves, two propane, but I wouldn't take the naptha stove aboard any boat. When we got this boat, a Tyler 29, it had an Origo 2 alky pot screwed to the galley surface. It's replaced by the camp stove, which we can secure for use, but usually just let it sit on the plasic anti skid mat, and which might benefit from coat hanger pot holder wires, but we never bothered. It makes good toast with a beehive grate, and can do a dozen eggs with bacon on a flat aluminium and teflon grill. Excess fat needs to be and is easily drained off. It would serve well to make bread, or fuel a candle pot. I am amazed that someone actually paid a couple of hundred bucks for the barely used Origo. They are 600 bucks in the catalog. Phew! Most sailors must be even crazier than me. Never did get any use out of the kerosene oven, except for storing pots, pans and a pressure cooker. The price of tinned propane is a little high, so I am considering refilling them from a 20 pounder tank, but not for tranport across any legal boundaries. I don't really trust that scheme, but considering, may give it a try. The worst that could happen is my propane trickles down the cockpit scuppers. Sterno sucks, and doesn't even do that very well. 2 0r 3 burner propane stoves are about 20 - 30 loons. If you can't find one that cheap, try http://www.globalsemi.com they had a special last month. I got one as a deal, but haven't needed to use it yet. It is intended for the camper van / granny suite, unfinished out in the yard. YMMV Terry K |
Jim Conlin wrote in message ...
The $18 solution is appealing. Is butane heavier than air? JAXAshby wrote: on most 20' boats, the very best is a butane chafing stove, available often under $18 (close out store), and nearly as often for $85 (chandleries) and in between (department stores). An okay second is an Origo 1500 non-pressurized alcohol stove everything else is something else, and not a hell of a lot better than a coffe can filled with sand and some gasoline set on fire (I have cooked on such). What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? It is my opinion that alchohol stoves are the most dangerous item on most boats. The pressurized ones require priming with fuel whose flame is hard to see insuring that eventually you will attempt to prime a stove that is already (or still) aflame from a previous attempt. Similar situations have arisen with unpressurized alchohol stoves where they have been refueled while still burning because they seemed to be out. I think the alchohol stoves are so dangerous that I took one out of my boat and simply put cans of sterno down into the empty burner wells and this works as well as alchohol and is safer. For real cooking, I favor a Coleman propane stove used in the cockpit only while at the dock or maybe at anchor if it is very calm. I store the cylinders in a net bag hung off the stern below coaming level. Thanks, Grainger |
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 04:47:55 GMT, Jim Conlin
wrote: The $18 solution is appealing. Is butane heavier than air? Butane is about 2.08 x the density of air. The containers used on those chafing stoves hold 220 g. JAXAshby wrote: on most 20' boats, the very best is a butane chafing stove, available often under $18 (close out store), and nearly as often for $85 (chandleries) and in between (department stores). An okay second is an Origo 1500 non-pressurized alcohol stove everything else is something else, and not a hell of a lot better than a coffe can filled with sand and some gasoline set on fire (I have cooked on such). What are the pros and cons of these two types of stoves for a small boat (20')? Thanks, Grainger Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
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The Kenyon pressurized alcohol stoves, which were inexpensive and popular,
had their problems. I recollect one whose tank was small and close to the burners. Having to refill the tank next to a hot burner was unpleasant. There were other good pressurized alcohol stoves.. I had a Shipmate. Its tank was large and several feet away from the stove and needed filling only once or twice a season . Its burners were large enough to provide enough heat to cook on and its priming cups were large enough that spills were rare. It gave little trouble in over twenty years. DSK wrote: (Parallax) wrote: It is my opinion that alchohol stoves are the most dangerous item on most boats. The pressurized ones require priming with fuel whose flame is hard to see insuring that eventually you will attempt to prime a stove that is already (or still) aflame from a previous attempt. Agreed, those old-timey pressurized alcohol stoves were a disaster waiting to happen. Wayne.B wrote: Absolutely correct. It is amazing to me that they were recommended equipment for so long. Well, it was a fad because they required a lot of manly fiddling about, just like an old fashioned campfire. ... For a small boat I like the gimbeled one burner propane stove currently marketed by Force 10. It works well and stows easily and out of the way. Propane stored outside of course. The only thing I don't like about propane is the way it makes the cabin so dank... gives off a lot of water vapor. If you can always cook outside, not a problem. But in cold or rainy weather it is unpleasant. Also it's difficult to tell how much fuel you have left. We used a wick-type alcohol stove (an Origo) for years and found it simple & effective. Never failed, and while many people complain that alcohol "burns too cool" it seemed to cook everything in reasonable times. Excellent for boiling up a kettle for coffee and/or tea. We bought denatured alcohol at the hardware store, much cheaper than camping fuel. If I were outfitting another small cruiser that's exactly what I'd get again. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Jim Conlin wrote:
.... There were good pressurized alcohol stoves.. I had a Shipmate. Its tank was large and several feet away from the stove and needed filling only once or twice a season . Its burners were large enough to provide enough heat to cook on and its priming cups were large enough that spills were rare. It gave little trouble in over twenty years. Shipmate made some good stuff, not surprised their pressure alcohol stove was good too. But I bet it's still prone to more faults than the wick type. BTW the stove I have liked the most is the Shipmate Skipper Junior, a small coal (or other solid fuel) pot-bellied stove/heater. It came out of 1900s era catboat, one of two in the boat; and then for some years it lived in a Harkers Islander. I still have it squirreled away somewhere awaiting just the right vintage style boat to put it in. DSK |
Sterno sucks, and doesn't even do that very well.
I have heard owners of genuine SeaSwing stoves who have both Sterno and kero/alc stoves say they prefer Sterno by a wide margin. Of course, those guys may be using a SeaSwing in a seaway rather than tied to a dock. |
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Agreed, those old-timey pressurized alcohol stoves were a disaster
waiting to happen. just like the pressue kero stoves of the time, 40 years ago, except the kero stove sooted up everything in sight, plus were worthless for anything but boiling water [scorched everything else]. |
Well, it was a fad because they required a lot of manly fiddling about,
just like an old fashioned campfire. like kero, and just about CNG. |
Having to refill the tank next to a hot burner was unpleasant.
and stew ped. dum-dum, you were supposed to let the stove cool down to room temp first. were you unable to read the directions? |
The containers used on
those chafing stoves hold 220 g. for $1.45 per cartridge in Chinatown NYC. Takes about 90 seconds to heat water to boiling to make a cup of coffee. |
JAXAshby wrote: The $18 solution is appealing. Is butane heavier than air? yes. it is best to store the cartridges outside the cabin. |
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:08:14 -0400, DSK wrote:
(Parallax) wrote: It is my opinion that alchohol stoves are the most dangerous item on most boats. The pressurized ones require priming with fuel whose flame is hard to see insuring that eventually you will attempt to prime a stove that is already (or still) aflame from a previous attempt. Agreed, those old-timey pressurized alcohol stoves were a disaster waiting to happen. Wayne.B wrote: Absolutely correct. It is amazing to me that they were recommended equipment for so long. Well, it was a fad because they required a lot of manly fiddling about, just like an old fashioned campfire. ... For a small boat I like the gimbeled one burner propane stove currently marketed by Force 10. It works well and stows easily and out of the way. Propane stored outside of course. The only thing I don't like about propane is the way it makes the cabin so dank... gives off a lot of water vapor. If you can always cook outside, not a problem. But in cold or rainy weather it is unpleasant. Also it's difficult to tell how much fuel you have left. We used a wick-type alcohol stove (an Origo) for years and found it simple & effective. Never failed, and while many people complain that alcohol "burns too cool" it seemed to cook everything in reasonable times. Excellent for boiling up a kettle for coffee and/or tea. We bought denatured alcohol at the hardware store, much cheaper than camping fuel. If I were outfitting another small cruiser that's exactly what I'd get again. If I were ever to use alcohol again it would be the Origo, but it makes just as much water vapor as propane for the same amount of heat. The only problem I ever had with an Origo was one where the rivet was broken at the pivot for the on-off cover. I had one smolder all night once. Otherwise it is simple, and makes enough heat to steam lobsters. Fresh Breezes- Doug King Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:08:14 -0400, DSK wrote: (Parallax) wrote: It is my opinion that alchohol stoves are the most dangerous item on most boats. The pressurized ones require priming with fuel whose flame is hard to see insuring that eventually you will attempt to prime a stove that is already (or still) aflame from a previous attempt. Agreed, those old-timey pressurized alcohol stoves were a disaster waiting to happen. Wayne.B wrote: Absolutely correct. It is amazing to me that they were recommended equipment for so long. Well, it was a fad because they required a lot of manly fiddling about, just like an old fashioned campfire. ... For a small boat I like the gimbeled one burner propane stove currently marketed by Force 10. It works well and stows easily and out of the way. Propane stored outside of course. The only thing I don't like about propane is the way it makes the cabin so dank... gives off a lot of water vapor. If you can always cook outside, not a problem. But in cold or rainy weather it is unpleasant. Also it's difficult to tell how much fuel you have left. We used a wick-type alcohol stove (an Origo) for years and found it simple & effective. Never failed, and while many people complain that alcohol "burns too cool" it seemed to cook everything in reasonable times. Excellent for boiling up a kettle for coffee and/or tea. We bought denatured alcohol at the hardware store, much cheaper than camping fuel. If I were outfitting another small cruiser that's exactly what I'd get again. If I were ever to use alcohol again it would be the Origo, but it makes just as much water vapor as propane for the same amount of heat. The only problem I ever had with an Origo was one where the rivet was broken at the pivot for the on-off cover. I had one smolder all night once. Otherwise it is simple, and makes enough heat to steam lobsters. Another enthusiastic vote for the Origo. The last boat I delivered from Hawaii had one and that worked well enough for bread and cake baking (using an unregulated pressure cooker as a Dutch Oven)... Never gave any trouble and seemed nearly as fast as LPG for water heating. Brian Cleverly Fresh Breezes- Doug King Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a "Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music." |
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hey, ah, weenyne? do you not remember it was you making the claim that reading
directions is too tough for you to do and therefore did the stew ped thing the stove manufacturer told everyone else not to do? From: Wayne.B Date: 10/23/2004 1:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: On 23 Oct 2004 02:03:39 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote: and stew ped. ========================================== Once again reminding us that stupid is as stupid does. |
DSK wrote:
The only thing I don't like about propane is the way it makes the cabin so dank... gives off a lot of water vapor. I have seen this being said about both propane and alcohol, and it does not make much sense to me. As long as you are not using coal, you will get water as a combustion product. The difference between propane (C3H8) and alcohol (C2H5OH) for Hydrogen content is small/negligible. You will produce a lot more water vapor if you use the heat to cook water, or a product with high water content. And that is exactly what you are doing when cooking food. If you don't ventilate enough you will get a damp cabin, no matter what fuel you use. (unless it is coal, then you will not get much water vapor, but you will die of carbon monoxide poisoning if you don't ventilate) So the lesson is: install some means of ventilation over the stove to get rid of the watervapor. -- vriendelijke groeten/kind regards, Jelle |
DSK wrote:
The only thing I don't like about propane is the way it makes the cabin so dank... gives off a lot of water vapor. Jelle wrote: I have seen this being said about both propane and alcohol, and it does not make much sense to me. As long as you are not using coal, you will get water as a combustion product. The difference between propane (C3H8) and alcohol (C2H5OH) for Hydrogen content is small/negligible. Maybe so. In my experience, the effect is much more noticable with propane. Using the Origo alcohol stove in a small boat, it never fogged up the windows whereas one of those small camping propane stoves would, even with no kettle on it. ... You will produce a lot more water vapor if you use the heat to cook water, or a product with high water content. And that is exactly what you are doing when cooking food. That's true. If you don't ventilate enough you will get a damp cabin, no matter what fuel you use. (unless it is coal, then you will not get much water vapor, but you will die of carbon monoxide poisoning if you don't ventilate) So the lesson is: install some means of ventilation over the stove to get rid of the watervapor. And the CO2. But it's somewhat of a dilemma, if it's cold outside you don't want to let in too much cold air. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
DSK wrote:
If you don't ventilate enough you will get a damp cabin, no matter what fuel you use. (unless it is coal, then you will not get much water vapor, but you will die of carbon monoxide poisoning if you don't ventilate) So the lesson is: install some means of ventilation over the stove to get rid of the watervapor. And the CO2. But it's somewhat of a dilemma, if it's cold outside you don't want to let in too much cold air. Y'all are overlooking one more factor in using a flame for heat: flames consume oxygen. So unless you want to axphysiate yourselves, it's necessary to provide a source of fresh air no matter what type of flame-burning heater is used. Since heat rises and cold air falls, cracking open a deck hatch should do it without losing too much cabin warmth...only the amount that rises to the "ceiling." -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1 |
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