Diesel Engine Time: Opinions Sought
 

I appreciate that this may unleash the floodgates of opinion and rant,
but that's what I'm looking for...! I'm building a 30' cutter, and am
at the point where I need to get an engine in place. 20 H.P. +/- is
what the plans call for (traditional reduction gear driving prop
shaft).

I've narrowed the field down to the Kubota variants and Yanmar,
specifically:

Universal M3 20B
Beta Marine BD 722
Phasor P3-20-SM
Yanmar 3YM20

The first three are all based on the same 3 cylinder Kubota block
which has been around for a while; the last (also 3 cylinder) is so
new it's not yet shipping. The Universal and Phasor are available for
about $5.7K, the Beta (I assume largely because it's imported from the
UK and the dollar is an also-ran at the moment) about $6.5K. The
Yanmar about spilts the difference at $6.3K (all prices are "boat
show" quotes [!]).

Volvo was not considered because parts price / availability *seems* to
be a major issue.

I'd appreciate any comments on your experience with these or similar
engines from these manufacturers - or any others that I may have
overlooked.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

On 26 Sep 2004 10:51:47 -0700, (mike worrall)
wrote:

I appreciate that this may unleash the floodgates of opinion and rant,
but that's what I'm looking for...! I'm building a 30' cutter, and am
at the point where I need to get an engine in place. 20 H.P. +/- is
what the plans call for (traditional reduction gear driving prop
shaft).

I've narrowed the field down to the Kubota variants and Yanmar,
specifically:

Universal M3 20B
Beta Marine BD 722
Phasor P3-20-SM
Yanmar 3YM20

The first three are all based on the same 3 cylinder Kubota block
which has been around for a while; the last (also 3 cylinder) is so
new it's not yet shipping. The Universal and Phasor are available for
about $5.7K, the Beta (I assume largely because it's imported from the
UK and the dollar is an also-ran at the moment) about $6.5K. The
Yanmar about spilts the difference at $6.3K (all prices are "boat
show" quotes [!]).

I am only familiar with this in the sense that they are quite similar
to the Atomic 4 diesel "drop-in" (yeah, right) line. I am
sticking...barely...to A4s because I have the repair knowledge base,
they are still quite common where I am, I have lots of spares, and
rebuilding the stern tube, mounts, shaft and etc. makes no sense on my
32 year old chunk of Classic Plastic. Better I should deface the stern
with an outboard at this stage, if my adventures with Atomic Bombs
come to naught.

Having said that, I would say that all things being even, your
proximity to a Kubota dealer would be the real question. If the
blocks, crankshafts, rings and gaskets are essentially the same stock
Kubota deal, then compatibility and proximity to Kubota stock--and not
necessarily "marine" parts becomes the distinction.

My information from people doing A4 swaps to diesel is that Beta is
quite good in this regard, and the dealer network, while smaller, is
courteous and knowledgable. Also, there seems to be a effort to make
Beta engines "front-end accessible", which may be a real advantage in
a 30-footer.

Phasor I know nothing about.

Universal spares seem pricier, and what I sense is that the company
isn't what it used to be.

Anyway, if you can use Kubota parts as spares, you are likely to see a
cost saving on those components that are "marinized" (i.e. marked up
in many--not all--cases) to no good purpose.

As for the Yanmar, they may be a good manufacturer and are certainly
popular, but there is no way I would buy the latest redesign of
anything that was "mission-critical'. The best diesel is, after all,
the one you drop in a vessel on Day One and--assuming you maintain it
to spec--starts properly the day 25 years later when you sell it to a
keen younger person who reminds you of you at that age G

Volvo was not considered because parts price / availability *seems* to
be a major issue.

Those damn unionized Swedes and their acceptable pay rates!

I'd appreciate any comments on your experience with these or similar
engines from these manufacturers - or any others that I may have
overlooked.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles

Pardon my ignorance but...if the Universal is a Kubota under the hood,
is there a question of whether he can use Kubota parts ?

I have a neighbor that substituted a Universal, M4-30 I believe it's
called, for an Atomic Four, has had it a long time and is satisfied.

Cordially,
Courtney


rhys wrote:

On 26 Sep 2004 10:51:47 -0700, (mike worrall)
wrote:


I appreciate that this may unleash the floodgates of opinion and rant,
but that's what I'm looking for...! I'm building a 30' cutter, and am
at the point where I need to get an engine in place. 20 H.P. +/- is
what the plans call for (traditional reduction gear driving prop
shaft).

I've narrowed the field down to the Kubota variants and Yanmar,
specifically:

Universal M3 20B
Beta Marine BD 722
Phasor P3-20-SM
Yanmar 3YM20

The first three are all based on the same 3 cylinder Kubota block
which has been around for a while; the last (also 3 cylinder) is so
new it's not yet shipping. The Universal and Phasor are available for
about $5.7K, the Beta (I assume largely because it's imported from the
UK and the dollar is an also-ran at the moment) about $6.5K. The
Yanmar about spilts the difference at $6.3K (all prices are "boat
show" quotes [!]).


I am only familiar with this in the sense that they are quite similar
to the Atomic 4 diesel "drop-in" (yeah, right) line. I am
sticking...barely...to A4s because I have the repair knowledge base,
they are still quite common where I am, I have lots of spares, and
rebuilding the stern tube, mounts, shaft and etc. makes no sense on my
32 year old chunk of Classic Plastic. Better I should deface the stern
with an outboard at this stage, if my adventures with Atomic Bombs
come to naught.

Having said that, I would say that all things being even, your
proximity to a Kubota dealer would be the real question. If the
blocks, crankshafts, rings and gaskets are essentially the same stock
Kubota deal, then compatibility and proximity to Kubota stock--and not
necessarily "marine" parts becomes the distinction.

My information from people doing A4 swaps to diesel is that Beta is
quite good in this regard, and the dealer network, while smaller, is
courteous and knowledgable. Also, there seems to be a effort to make
Beta engines "front-end accessible", which may be a real advantage in
a 30-footer.

Phasor I know nothing about.

Universal spares seem pricier, and what I sense is that the company
isn't what it used to be.

Anyway, if you can use Kubota parts as spares, you are likely to see a
cost saving on those components that are "marinized" (i.e. marked up
in many--not all--cases) to no good purpose.

As for the Yanmar, they may be a good manufacturer and are certainly
popular, but there is no way I would buy the latest redesign of
anything that was "mission-critical'. The best diesel is, after all,
the one you drop in a vessel on Day One and--assuming you maintain it
to spec--starts properly the day 25 years later when you sell it to a
keen younger person who reminds you of you at that age G

Volvo was not considered because parts price / availability *seems* to
be a major issue.


Those damn unionized Swedes and their acceptable pay rates!


I'd appreciate any comments on your experience with these or similar
engines from these manufacturers - or any others that I may have
overlooked.

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles




--
s/v Mutiny
Rhodes Bounty II
lying Oriental, NC
WDB5619

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:03:59 -0500, Courtney Thomas
wrote:

Pardon my ignorance but...if the Universal is a Kubota under the hood,
is there a question of whether he can use Kubota parts ?

My impression is that the blocks are Kubota, but there are a number of
parts and design differences that distinguish, say, equivalent
Universal/Westerbeke and Beta diesels.

I have a neighbor that substituted a Universal, M4-30 I believe it's
called, for an Atomic Four, has had it a long time and is satisfied.

I'm not knocking the Universal A4 replacement...but the OP was
comparing diesels, and I have heard enough positive things about how
the Beta is designed for easy access that if I pitch my Atomic 4 for a
diesel, I would likely choose the Beta dimensional replacement over
the Universal.

One man's not particularly strongly held opinion, as I still run an A4
G. But as the years pass, a lot of A4 owners where I said (*still*
about 40%) are choosing to repower with diesel. This can be an
expensive and time-consuming choice, so the OP who wants a diesel
suggestion is avoiding at least that debate.

R.

I am a fan of Yanmar engines, have owned three in the past. All were GM
series, two one cylinder and one three cylinder. Is there a reason you have
not listed the GM series for consideration. The two cylinder should be
about what you are looking for. They are expensive but extremely reliable.
DAve

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:02:53 -0400, "Dave W"
wrote:

I am a fan of Yanmar engines, have owned three in the past. All were GM
series, two one cylinder and one three cylinder. Is there a reason you have
not listed the GM series for consideration.

Yes, because:

"They are expensive but extremely reliable."

I think you can get a similar level of reliability at less cost, or at
least it's worth investigating. Yanmar are pretty well the 'default
setting" of marine diesel auxiliaries at this point, where, say, a
Perkins 4-107 or 4-108 would be in 1980. So they don't need promotion
from me.

If all alternatives are examined, and Yanmar is the best choice, then
I wouldn't suggest other than a Yanmar. However, alternatives do exist
and I encourage alternatives.

I didn't suggest Volvo, either...beautiful diesels that are usually
reliable, but if they break, you better have a mechanic AND a bank
manager...G

R.

Dave wrote:...

"Is there a reason you have not listed the GM series for
consideration."

The only GM series engine still being manufactured is the 9.8 HP
1GM10. The 'Y' series has (apparently) superceded (sp) the GM series,
due - I suspect - to stricter environmental regulations. Since I need
20 HP (per the plans I'm working from), the new 3Y20 seems the only
logical Yanmar choice.

MW

"mike worrall" wrote in message
om...
Dave wrote:...

"Is there a reason you have not listed the GM series for
consideration."

The only GM series engine still being manufactured is the 9.8 HP
1GM10. The 'Y' series has (apparently) superceded (sp) the GM series,
due - I suspect - to stricter environmental regulations. Since I need
20 HP (per the plans I'm working from), the new 3Y20 seems the only
logical Yanmar choice.

MW

Yes, but in this change over from the GM to YM you might still be able to
get a GM at a significant discount.


--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)