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new hull planking method (possibly)....long
YSTay:
You are a day late and a dollar short - look at Derek Kelsal's web site for panel construction method - if he still lists it; he's into the third iteration at this time. Hello all, I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Spray gel coat onto large flat surface. Lay up one (or however many) layers of glass. Lay the resin on really wet such that its really juicy. Then place a layer of core mat (spongy core material used to add stiffness) onto juicy laminate. Gently press into laminate such that the core mat takes some of the resin. Let cure. You should now have a large laminate with hard gel coat on one side and raw, untouched core mat on the other. This will be very floppy, which is the general idea. Now cut the required shapes out of this laminate. This is easily done with a sabre saw or even double action shears. Install onto stringers with gel coat facing outwards. Then lay up lay up on the inside with FRP. You will end up with a very stiff hull because of the sandwich construction. I've done this on small flat sided boxes and had good success. Maybe some one would like to take this on? Pro's: Good where quality ply is not available or too expensive. Cheap! None of that "woody" type issues. Pre-faired hull surface. Extreme hull stiffness Con's: Scantling issues. Possibility of resin starved areas under the core mat. Bonding of hull strakes to wooden stringers prior to interior glassing (Poly resin and wood isn't that great, so I'm told although I have evidence that it can be done). And many others, I'm sure. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Hello all,
I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Spray gel coat onto large flat surface. Lay up one (or however many) layers of glass. Lay the resin on really wet such that its really juicy. Then place a layer of core mat (spongy core material used to add stiffness) onto juicy laminate. Gently press into laminate such that the core mat takes some of the resin. Let cure. You should now have a large laminate with hard gel coat on one side and raw, untouched core mat on the other. This will be very floppy, which is the general idea. Now cut the required shapes out of this laminate. This is easily done with a sabre saw or even double action shears. Install onto stringers with gel coat facing outwards. Then lay up lay up on the inside with FRP. You will end up with a very stiff hull because of the sandwich construction. I've done this on small flat sided boxes and had good success. Maybe some one would like to take this on? Pro's: Good where quality ply is not available or too expensive. Cheap! None of that "woody" type issues. Pre-faired hull surface. Extreme hull stiffness Con's: Scantling issues. Possibility of resin starved areas under the core mat. Bonding of hull strakes to wooden stringers prior to interior glassing (Poly resin and wood isn't that great, so I'm told although I have evidence that it can be done). And many others, I'm sure. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
In "New Plywood Boats" TF Jones gives details of building a Dobbler 16 that way. He sells plans for the Dobbler 16 on his website at www.jonesboats.com. The boat is normally built of plywood. "YSTay" ) writes: Hello all, I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Spray gel coat onto large flat surface. Lay up one (or however many) layers of glass. Lay the resin on really wet such that its really juicy. Then place a layer of core mat (spongy core material used to add stiffness) onto juicy laminate. Gently press into laminate such that the core mat takes some of the resin. Let cure. You should now have a large laminate with hard gel coat on one side and raw, untouched core mat on the other. This will be very floppy, which is the general idea. Now cut the required shapes out of this laminate. This is easily done with a sabre saw or even double action shears. Install onto stringers with gel coat facing outwards. Then lay up lay up on the inside with FRP. You will end up with a very stiff hull because of the sandwich construction. I've done this on small flat sided boxes and had good success. Maybe some one would like to take this on? Pro's: Good where quality ply is not available or too expensive. Cheap! None of that "woody" type issues. Pre-faired hull surface. Extreme hull stiffness Con's: Scantling issues. Possibility of resin starved areas under the core mat. Bonding of hull strakes to wooden stringers prior to interior glassing (Poly resin and wood isn't that great, so I'm told although I have evidence that it can be done). And many others, I'm sure. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
I suggest some experimentation.
Make up test panels of the fiberglass layup you described and a panel of the plywood of your choice. Compare them for weight, stiffness and cost. I suspect that, for a given weight, the FRP will be much less stiff than the ply. Let us know the results. YSTay wrote: Hello all, I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Spray gel coat onto large flat surface. Lay up one (or however many) layers of glass. Lay the resin on really wet such that its really juicy. Then place a layer of core mat (spongy core material used to add stiffness) onto juicy laminate. Gently press into laminate such that the core mat takes some of the resin. Let cure. You should now have a large laminate with hard gel coat on one side and raw, untouched core mat on the other. This will be very floppy, which is the general idea. Now cut the required shapes out of this laminate. This is easily done with a sabre saw or even double action shears. Install onto stringers with gel coat facing outwards. Then lay up lay up on the inside with FRP. You will end up with a very stiff hull because of the sandwich construction. I've done this on small flat sided boxes and had good success. Maybe some one would like to take this on? Pro's: Good where quality ply is not available or too expensive. Cheap! None of that "woody" type issues. Pre-faired hull surface. Extreme hull stiffness Con's: Scantling issues. Possibility of resin starved areas under the core mat. Bonding of hull strakes to wooden stringers prior to interior glassing (Poly resin and wood isn't that great, so I'm told although I have evidence that it can be done). And many others, I'm sure. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Interesting. I'd be concerned about the sandwich properties though.
Bare with me as I think "outloud". I'm certaintly not the expert so I'll try to keep my reasoning general. In sanwich construction, the skins are supposed to work together to offset tension and compression in the sandwich. By building the panels flat and then bending them, you're placing the outer skin in tension already. It seems like you'd lose some of the benefits. Someone help me. Am I comparing apples and oranges? -- Matt Langenfeld JEM Watercraft http://jemwatercraft.com YSTay wrote: Hello all, I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Spray gel coat onto large flat surface. Lay up one (or however many) layers of glass. Lay the resin on really wet such that its really juicy. Then place a layer of core mat (spongy core material used to add stiffness) onto juicy laminate. Gently press into laminate such that the core mat takes some of the resin. Let cure. You should now have a large laminate with hard gel coat on one side and raw, untouched core mat on the other. This will be very floppy, which is the general idea. Now cut the required shapes out of this laminate. This is easily done with a sabre saw or even double action shears. Install onto stringers with gel coat facing outwards. Then lay up lay up on the inside with FRP. You will end up with a very stiff hull because of the sandwich construction. I've done this on small flat sided boxes and had good success. Maybe some one would like to take this on? Pro's: Good where quality ply is not available or too expensive. Cheap! None of that "woody" type issues. Pre-faired hull surface. Extreme hull stiffness Con's: Scantling issues. Possibility of resin starved areas under the core mat. Bonding of hull strakes to wooden stringers prior to interior glassing (Poly resin and wood isn't that great, so I'm told although I have evidence that it can be done). And many others, I'm sure. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:27:05 GMT, Matt Langenfeld
wrote: In sanwich construction, the skins are supposed to work together to offset tension and compression in the sandwich. By building the panels flat and then bending them, you're placing the outer skin in tension already. It seems like you'd lose some of the benefits. Someone help me. Am I comparing apples and oranges? ========================================== I think that the proposal was to build a "single skin" laminate, bend it into place, and then add the inner skin as a last step. Could be wrong, but that's how I interpreted it. |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
YSTay wrote: Hello all, I've been working alot with fibreglass lately and this idea popped into my head: Say you want to plank a hull with ply sheets, traditionally, you would cut out the strakes and fit them onto stringers. Instead of using ply, I'm thinking that I could use pre-made fibreglass sheets instead of ply. Here's the kicker; Instead of just laying up large sheets of FRP, I suspect that one could get better results from the following method ; Sounds a bit like: http://www.glen-l.com/supplies/cflex.html Dale |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Hello all,
Sure seems that there's never anything new under the sun! No worries that this has been done before. I just thought I might put this out there and create some discourse. Who knows where it may lead. Anyway, cheers, Arnold |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:54:32 +0800, "YSTay"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Speak for yourself. I would need _perfect_ dust control. BTW, complaining that FRP is horrible itchy stuff is not valid! Good dust control takes care of everything. I look forward to all comments. Cheers, Arnold ************************************************** *** It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it rammed down our throats. |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Hi
Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote in message . .. On 30 Jul 2004 02:02:45 -0700, (Per Corell) wrote: Hi Perhaps a language problem? In any case, it is hard to see how one usenet group could ruin your opportunity to build boats. No , and as I acturly had been building many, the reson to instantly bully any new prototype any new concept also surprised me at start, but you se when I interduced the idea of full/scale develobed panels. made as one large roll of paper ready to display mount onto whatever sheet material ----- I found one danish caravan factory that sold 3mm. ,one nice side ,ready made glasfiber sheet white gelcoat at very low cost, ----- but what it seemed, was that the actural concept and the difference from tradisional scaled down plans ,the fact that here was somthing that was not the tradisional trouble of re-calculating and upscaling to even transfere to just a building jig, where I offered the actural panels in full-scale drawings ready to cut from the lines, ---- this was seemed to be the actural offence. An offence towards those at that time maby 50 or 70 year old designs found in P.M and simular , even anyone shuld think that it would be more obvious to support a real living and innovative boat designer that proved skills develobing exiting new design tools, ----- but try go back as you say yourself ; first pfull-scale plans was no good even a few years the jokers interduced them as their own invention, then full-scale plans was no good as the paper would scrink in moisture even then with scaled planes and paper the foult would be ten fold, but ontop and even I showed both a load of acturly build boats, and scaled models, then even a scale model wasn't a prove of nothing even that's what boatbuilders allway's used. --------- Anyway the 3D-Honeycomb method at the same time got the FAA aproval and was pointed to as "an exiting new innovative method sor small sports and beach planes", so being up against a crowd of fanatics of aincient plywood boat designers didn't bother as much as the obvious harm to a promising new boatbuilding concept, where digital design tools was develobed to the benefit of amature builders but obviously they also made the old fasion plans obsulute, unless you by all means wanted to defend what was not even the noble wooden boat building crafts, but cheap plybox designs 50 year old. I often at those times wondered if it had to do with copyright but acturly it was a battle between somthing that was not the old boatbuilding crafts --- I am acturly a woodenboat builder --- and the obvious options develobing new exiting design tools, guess who won. Anyway the arguments was so hysterical that you had to give up when somone claimed that a 3D model wasn't a "prove" for anything, even a scale model was no use towards an elegant elefant, and I simply gave up ontop the vaste of what shuld be my family's bread. -------- If you check the Cyber-Boat remains you will se some nice designs though ,but the 3D-H method that everyone could have profited from, was not develobed further within the noble boatsbuilding craft, but Im'e not to blame for that. P.C. http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/index.htm |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Per Corell ) writes: Hi Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote in message . .. On 30 Jul 2004 02:02:45 -0700, (Per Corell) wrote: Hi Perhaps a language problem? In any case, it is hard to see how one usenet group could ruin your opportunity to build boats. No , and as I acturly had been building many, the reson to instantly bully any new prototype any new concept also surprised me at start, That is not true. Several people looked at your material. What they objected to was your everlasting postings promoting your ideas in this newsgroup. Many people have described new techniques in this newsgroup but they (we) don't go on and on about them until everyone gets fed up with them. That is what people objected to and that is what made your postings unpopular. If you think society will immediately see one of your ideas as the great new earth-shattering thing you, and other people who come up with ideas often do, then you are wrong. Adoption of new ideas comes slowly. There are significant costs invovled. It takes time to prove a new idea. If you think your ideas are worthwhile then develop and prove them yourself, and do not complain when other people are unwillign to devote their time and money to it. In any engineering discipline new ideas are a dime a dozen. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
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new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Per, you remind me of a fellow pilot work with, whom I used to call "60
grit". He was honestly amazed at how many people got so offended by his remarks, and how people would "attack him" for his "honest opinions". He seems to have gotten over it, though, having gone from people declaring they wouldn't fly with the guy, to handling a big political mess on a recent 1,400 mile rescue mission. Most people tend to look at the world through a one way mirror. They see the other guy as much darker, and can't see their own reflection very well. Try flipping it around. Imagine they are trying to help you. Think they are trying to help you succeed by focusing you on your core capabilities instead of thinking you are going to change the world. That's because they are. Personally, I have gotten far more from Devil's advocates than cheerleaders. For example, I blew $1,600 and months of frustration on a College project I funded. I got caught up in the teams enthusiasm and wound up with a pile of junk instead of my goal. Speaking of which (and back to planking methods) your CAD work is great. What I am interested in is an easy way to turn a CAD design into a decent mold. CAD has gotten cheap, trying to get cheap CAM is the issue now. "Per Corell" wrote in message om... Hi (William R. Watt) wrote in message ... That is not true. Several people looked at your material. What they objected to was your everlasting postings promoting your ideas in this newsgroup. Realy -- well I notised that round 1700 members in the Cyber-Boat Yahoo group don't complain about new idears and smart way's that make no bad craftmanship out of the fantastic new options combining a noble old craft with today's obvious options . Many people have described new techniques in this newsgroup but they (we) don't go on and on about them until everyone gets fed up with them. That is what people objected to and that is what made your postings unpopular. My posting never was unpopular except among a small crowd that all the time was talking about a specific designer who some 70 years ago didn't make beautifull vessels and nice craftmanship, but forced cheap materials into lazy drawings that often made problems for those who was actural amature builders who just wanted a cheap boat for the summer, from scrap sheet. ---- please don't make that better than geniune wooden boatbuilding and the noble arts and skills of exelent craftmen. If you think society will immediately see one of your ideas as the great new earth-shattering thing you, and other people who come up with ideas often do, then you are wrong. And you are here to fight "them" --- now except the obvious harm you want to put onto somone and his family by bullying and hate, what's your income ? Do you just hate anyone skilled to work with , develob and ignite the positive spirit and wanting to create somthing nice, are you just hating anyone skilled to develob the new computer tools so to bring a bit of beauty and develobment in a dying craft. Or maby boatsbuilding for you mean staying with plywood designs as you can not cope with nothing more complicated than bullying -------- what did you show, was it a nice display of exiting possibilities or was it nothing but bullying anything that was different than what you can grasp, all "modern" and "different" -------- then "different" from what ,the elegant elefant ? Adoption of new ideas comes slowly. There are significant costs invovled. It takes time to prove a new idea. If you think your ideas are worthwhile then develop and prove them yourself, and do not complain when other people are unwillign to devote their time and money to it. ------ What an arogant statement, some guy profesionaly skilled and with a load of fantastic new drive, able to create the wonders and proven top skills come and "think he is anything" , 1700 members steady and thousands floating in and out get all the inspiration that is my only intention to bring, the exiting new computer tools on display in a way that in actural pictures 3D show different technikes for the ones who don't want to project a boat as they did since 1740, then you sit at a computer and claim that lame plywood designs made from scrap, shuld be better than geniune noble crafts and quality, safety and thought. You got a lot of things wrong, but it seem that your own shouting and dirt throwing made you blind. Did you realy think I was some Hippie that played with a computer, or is that just the hate picture you used to promote the tradisional boatplans that in this fora was God, the old fasion technikes that you had to defend with bullying and making a fool out of anyone "who think they are anything" or "is better than us" ----- well that's not what boatbuilding is for me, for me it is about craftmanship nice design ,and actural develobment of a noble old craft. In any engineering discipline new ideas are a dime a dozen. Realy,--- now please remember that they also said that a ship made out of Iron could never float, that nothing heavier than the air would never fly and that infront a car, there shuld be a man with a gun and a huge flag. Engineering is full of just that deadend conservatism you progress but tell me what you contribuated. -- P.C. |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
I was tinkering with that idea. Eric at Rainbow Boat Works
(www.rainbowboats.com) does the CNC kits for my plans. He has a Shopbot CNC router. I e-mailed Shopbot and asked if a Rhino3d (Rhino3D is the design software I use) file can be dumped into their Shopbot control program and cut a mold. Here's what they said: "The combination of Rhino and Mill Wizard is popular for the type of work you describe. Check the forum www.talkshopbot.com - search for those names. And you might want to contact in tech support for more specific info." I'm not sure how easy or hard this is to do but maybe that'll point you in the right direction. Matt Langenfeld JEM Watercraft htpp://www.jemwatercraft.com Robert Haston wrote: Speaking of which (and back to planking methods) your CAD work is great. What I am interested in is an easy way to turn a CAD design into a decent mold. CAD has gotten cheap, trying to get cheap CAM is the issue now. |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
Greg Carlson sells a CNC cutter and his free plywood boat design program is meant to work with it. The CNC output which I don't understand might be an industry standard. Take a look at www.carlsondesign.com. The program is limited in the hull shapes it can handle - hard chined with only 5 stations if I remember correctly. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned |
new hull planking method (possibly)....long
(William R. Watt) wrote in
: Greg Carlson sells a CNC cutter and his free plywood boat design program is meant to work with it. The CNC output which I don't understand might be an industry standard. Take a look at www.carlsondesign.com. The program is limited in the hull shapes it can handle - hard chined with only 5 stations if I remember correctly. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned Go to www.cnczone.com and have a look at the home built wooden router forum. People there (including me) are building/have built all sorts of home built cnc machines. The CAM has definitely caught up with the CAD, you just need to know where to look. As to CAD, Rhino produces 3D surface models, you cannot go direct from there to develop and cut the composite 2d parts. Once you get the idea of 2d, 2 1/2 d and 3d machining then its all possible and there's even freeware/shareware to drive a machine, interpret cad output to gcode and the like. My 2'x4'x14" machine has a 3 1/2 hp Portercable router and can cut wood or Aluminum, cut up to 120inches pm, can cut 3d direct from rhino, 2 or 2 1/2 d from Autocad or drill circuit boards to 0.001" with #80 drills. All up costs excluding router was about $900. |
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