Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

The thing about adding a light glass cloth to the epoxy is not strength
but to get an indicator telling you how much epoxy you have applied.
Wetting out the glass will ensure you got a certain minimum epoxy
thickness everywhere. This is much, much harder to achieve without
the glass.

--
================================================== ==================
Martin Schöön * * * * * * * * * *"Problems worthy of attack
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * prove their worth by hitting back"
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Piet Hein
================================================== ==================

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

=?iso-8859-1?q?Martin_Sch=F6=F6n?= ) writes:
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?

I missed the earlier discussion, but why would you want to coat all the
wood surface?

I assume the previous replies recommended against it because of the lapped
strakes making it too difficult to lay the cloth on the hull.

I think all you really need to worry about is sealing the seam where the
planks overlap and that I assume can be done do with a flexible sealant
and a caulking gun. The wood will flex both from the motion of the boat
and the swelling with moisture. Epoxy might work. I have both epoxy and
polyester sealing seams on my boats but then they are very small so don't
flex, are plywood which is more stable, and are out of teh water when not
in use. You might get away with sealing the seams with epoxy. I spread a
small bead along the seam with a toothpick and do it twice. Then paint or
varnish or whatever. The potential problem with epoxy is that it dries
hard and can crack instead of flex.

Sorry I don't have the definitive answer.

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Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

Martin Schöön wrote:

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.


-------------------------------

Use a flexible epoxy paint and not the clear brittle epoxies used for
laminating and repairing etc. That will seal and waterproof but still allow
all kinds of movement of the wood as the uncoated sections expand,
contract, swell, etc. Such epoxies are generally pigmented so you could
paint and be back in the water in 24 hours or so. Come fall paint over the
'epoxy primer' with whatever you like.

I'm just finishing up the restoration of a rotting 1/4 inch plywood dinghy
in this manner - Even with epoxy inside and out, the plywood still has the
flex it originally did (in the non rotted or repaired spots - cleaning the
boat with a modest water blaster literally shot a 5 inch by 5 inch hole in
the bottom and a few smaller holes too!)


paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."
---------------

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

Bearing in mind that opinions here are sometimes worth about what you
pay for them, for my .02 cents I would encourage you to fill the seams
with a polysulfide caulking like BoatLife or SikaFlex. These products
come in standard cartridges and can be applied with a standard caulking
gun, although in a similar situation I chose to invest in an air driven
caulking gun, because I already owned a compressor and figured my hand
might fall off after i squeezed out 2,700 lineal feet of seams.

These products are made for seams, and they will stay more or less where
you place them, ie since your boat is too big to turn over, you are un
the position of having to force a semi liquid like epoxy mixed with a
filler up hill in order to get it into your seams. The polysulfide on
the other hand is mixed to s consistency, and is sticky enough that you
can work from underneath it without ending up wearing it.

You can get cartridges to fill with epoxy, and you can get slow curing
hardeners, but I still think it would be easier to use a different
product like BoatLife.

If you have some *small* areas of rot, you can solidify them with epoxy
sometimes. You need to drill some holes in the wood, use the plastic
syringes and later heat the area with a heat gun which helps thin the
epoxy a little and drive it deeper into the wood. You can find more
information on that process at www.westsystem.com

Good luck.

Jonathan


Jason wrote:
A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 GMT, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

Why would putting epoxy on the the wood make the boat watertight?
Leaks orginate in _joints_ in wood not the wood itself.

Are you sure the boat will not tighten up in the water? Most will.
Water sprayed inside the boat will hurry things along.

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

P.C. Ford ) writes:

Are you sure the boat will not tighten up in the water? Most will.
Water sprayed inside the boat will hurry things along.

I think the boat under discussion is plywood lapstrake. I realize the
builder of such a boat should be branded and put in stocks in the town
square but I'm not sure that plywood will swell up tight like honest to
goodness real wood. I could be wrong.



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Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

You know where we can find this flexible epoxy paint? i live in
Ontario.

Does the epoxy paint seal the seams where two planks overlap as well?
or do i have to caulk with silicone stuff as well?
please reply, im itchin to get on the water. :)
thanks
-Jay



Use a flexible epoxy paint and not the clear brittle epoxies used for
laminating and repairing etc. That will seal and waterproof but still allow
all kinds of movement of the wood as the uncoated sections expand,
contract, swell, etc. Such epoxies are generally pigmented so you could
paint and be back in the water in 24 hours or so. Come fall paint over the
'epoxy primer' with whatever you like.

I'm just finishing up the restoration of a rotting 1/4 inch plywood dinghy
in this manner - Even with epoxy inside and out, the plywood still has the
flex it originally did (in the non rotted or repaired spots - cleaning the
boat with a modest water blaster literally shot a 5 inch by 5 inch hole in
the bottom and a few smaller holes too!)


paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."
---------------

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

Jason ) writes:

or do i have to caulk with silicone stuff as well?

I've been advised not to use silicone on wooden boats because nothing else
will stick to it. For example, if the silicone doesn't do the job nothing
else will stick to the wood thereafter.

--
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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Epoxy okay on mahogany?
 

If you use silicon I don't think any paint will ever stick to it. I've
used sikaflex for seam sealing on aluminum aircraft floats and it
works very well. It'll be messy but lay a thin bead along the joint
then force it in with a plastic squeege and scrape off the excess.
You'd be able to paint the next day. I found 2 places in London Ont
that sell it.

You know where we can find this flexible epoxy paint? i live in
Ontario.

Does the epoxy paint seal the seams where two planks overlap as well?
or do i have to caulk with silicone stuff as well?
please reply, im itchin to get on the water. :)
thanks
-Jay



Use a flexible epoxy paint and not the clear brittle epoxies used for
laminating and repairing etc. That will seal and waterproof but still allow
all kinds of movement of the wood as the uncoated sections expand,
contract, swell, etc. Such epoxies are generally pigmented so you could
paint and be back in the water in 24 hours or so. Come fall paint over the
'epoxy primer' with whatever you like.

I'm just finishing up the restoration of a rotting 1/4 inch plywood dinghy
in this manner - Even with epoxy inside and out, the plywood still has the
flex it originally did (in the non rotted or repaired spots - cleaning the
boat with a modest water blaster literally shot a 5 inch by 5 inch hole in
the bottom and a few smaller holes too!)


paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."
---------------

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk (3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing' technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note, you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

One thing nice about marine varnish is that it can be stripped. Some of the
good coatings out there that would replace varnish are unstrippable plastics
....is this Nyalic stuff strippable? What's it like for repair later on?

Brian D


"scott downey" wrote in message
...
I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of
varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off
track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not
sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't
get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary
and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you
can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and
finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings
....much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be
okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just
waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on
traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks
great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test
the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

It does have a solvent and new coats melt into the old.


"Brian D" wrote in message
news:89K_c.135270$mD.91951@attbi_s02...

One thing nice about marine varnish is that it can be stripped. Some of
the
good coatings out there that would replace varnish are unstrippable
plastics
...is this Nyalic stuff strippable? What's it like for repair later on?

Brian D


"scott downey" wrote in message
...
I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of
varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is
expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...

Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off
track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not
sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not
be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish
each
and
every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then
assembled
the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the
bottom
on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good
adhesive/caulk
(3M
5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing
....else
it
costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't
get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any
moisture
in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into
the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check
your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary
and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and
then
keep
it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'
technique
(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out
of
it,
then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a
good
coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious
note,
you
can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of
varnish
for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as
described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you
can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and
finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes
or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but
will
get
you through the first year. You should follow with coating more
varnish
on
each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that,
you
can
expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings
...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats
require.

Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:

A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below
the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be
okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out
of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just
waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason

I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but
I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on
traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and
new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy
to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks
great
at
first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if
it
is
exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow
and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get
rapid
buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then
apply
a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the
epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not
sure
how
this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty
well
for
interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care
about.
Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test
the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac

Ten years ago we used system 3 epoxy over stained mahagony on the stern
of a strip built boat. The system 3 person was dubious, more about the
stain than the mahogony. We coated the epoxy several coats of Zspar
varnish. The epoxy has remained clear and pristine since then. The
glas and epoxy elsewhere on the boat laid over sanded non-stained cedar
has lifted in spots, but the boat gets lots of flex and abuse in those
portions. As the hull is intact I sanded the areas flat and applied a
couple more coats of epoxy to the marred surface areas. The boat is in
the sun a lot and is rowed hard in races...great stuff this epoxy.

Jim Raney

scott downey wrote:

I wonder if anyone of you have used Nyalic yet on wood instead of varnish..
It is UV proof cystal clear waterproof, nylonic coating. It is expensive.
Someday I will buy some.

"Brian D" wrote in message
news:OWhVc.157060$8_6.56861@attbi_s04...


Jumping in late in the conversation here, so forgive me if I'm off track.

I did manage to build a traditionally constructed boat (see
http://www.reelboats.com ) with epoxy encapsulation one time, but not sure
I'd recommend it. Especially if the boat you are working on will not be
completely disassembled. In my case, I had to cut, fit, and finish each


and


every component and then epoxy encapsulate them individually, then


assembled


the boat with the sealed pieces. In some parts, such as putting the


bottom


on, I still had to resort to standard fasteners and good adhesive/caulk


(3M


5200, Sikaflex 241) as appropriate. If I were to do a traditionally
constructed boat again, I'd stick to the original way of sealing ...else


it


costs you about 3X to 4X the time and it's likely that you still can't get
it all right. Note that since epoxy is 99.99% waterproof that any


moisture


in that gets in the wood will migrate through the wood but run into the
epoxy 'barrier' from the inside. Because of surface states (check your
chemistry book), the water or moisture tends to stay at that boundary and
can lead to rot. It's better to either completely encapsulate and then


keep


it that way -OR- say to heck with epoxy and use the same 'sealing'


technique


(primer, paint, caulks etc) everywhere.

Given the above caveats, if you are only trying to get one month out of


it,


then I guess you can pretty much do what you want ...waterproof with a


good


coat of Grey Poupon Dijon if you want (grinz). On a more serious note,


you


can expect that each coat of epoxy is equivalent to about 3 coats of


varnish


for thickness. If encapsulating on a bright finished boat as described
above, rather than coating the boat with 10- 12 coats of varnish, you can
get away with about 3 coats of epoxy (do not do less than that) and finish
with 4 coats of a good quality UV inhibitive varnish such as Epifanes or
Z-Spar Captains. 4 coats of varnish is a bit on the thin side but will


get


you through the first year. You should follow with coating more varnish


on


each year for the first 2 to 4 years before you relax. After that, you


can


expect 4 to 6 years (depending on sun exposure) between recoatings ...much
better than the annual sanding and coating that varnish-only boats


require.


Brian D


"Mac" wrote in message
...


On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:58:19 +0000, Jason wrote:



A while back i asked about if it is okay to put fibreglass below the
waterline of my 28 foot mahogany lapstraked carver mariner.
Overwhelmingly the response was NO.

heres my next question,
Would just using epoxy to coat all wood surfaces of the hull be okay?
or does anyone see anything wrong with it? i need the quickest,
easiest way to make this boat waterproof so i can get a month out of
it this year at least. it has already been sanded down, just waiting
for my next move.

any help is appreciated.
thanks,
-Jason


I wouldn't normally think of epoxy as a waterproofing material, but I
don't know what kind of boat you have. Here is a quote from _The
Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction_ (fourth edition)

"Most available plans for traditional small craft were drawn many
years before the development of modern resins. They rely on traditional
building techniques ... This sort of construction is not compatible
with our methods and, unfortunately, any attempt to blend old and new
will probably result in an unsuccessful hybrid." (p7)

The Gougeon brothers are the guys behind West System epoxy products.

So I would advise you to seal the boat in the same fashion (more or
less) in which it was designed to be sealed.

I do have a little experience with the aesthetics of applying epoxy to
wood. By itself, epoxy is a terrible varnish substitute. It looks great


at


first, and it is relatively easy to get a nice glossy finish, but it
begins to go milky. It will do this very rapidly (in a few days) if it


is


exposed to direct sunlight. Eventually, it will be kind of yellow and
almost opaque.

What you can do, however, is apply a few coats of epoxy first to get


rapid


buildup and a nearly perfect finish with little or no sanding, then


apply


a standard marine varnish afterwards. (You have to wet sand the epoxy
with very fine sandpaper prior to applying the varnish). I'm not sure


how


this holds up over the course of decades, but it holds up pretty well


for


interior jobs over the course of several years.

Practice on a piece of plywood before you do it on a piece you care


about.


Also, some varnishes may attack the cured epoxy, so be sure to test the
exact combination before using it.

HTH

--Mac