|
Jet Outboard Steering
As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be
really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. |
Jet Outboard Steering
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. |
Jet Outboard Steering
On Sep 25, 2:45*am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and *installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. *Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. *Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. * I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. |
Jet Outboard Steering
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
... If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. I guess the hydraulic steering on my BassCat that swings that 250ProXS around at 70+ mph easy as you please must not be properly installed then. What should it do better? Steer the boat for me? It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. Buy the parts? I already have a dual cable steering system that works perfectly. It would crank a 150 Black Max around just fine at the 55 MPH it was capable of pushing the boat it was on at. I also have single cable steering on two smaller boats that works just fine. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. Ok. So other than lubricating the cables and push rods what OTHER maintenance is there. They aren't electrical so no magic smoke to worry about. LOL. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. No maintenance really? Zero ever? So seals never start leaking, and they never dry rot? And of course the cost of completely tearing down a hydraulic cylinder to replace a seal is zero and takes no time when a seal fails, as opposed to the 50¢ worth of Triple Grease you should use in your steering once a year with cables? Or do you not count that as maintenance? Or do you not believe in doing maintenance to replace seals before they fail and instead call it repairs? If they never need maintenance why do inspections? Even if a seal lasts ten years it will cost more to replace than it cost you to keep your cables lubed properly. Other than that push pull cable steering (not rope on a pulley) sucks according to you, and hydraulics never need maintenance ever, do you see a strong need not to use dual cable steering that adequately moved a 150 around under power for a jet drive lower unit which does not develop any side torque that you need the extra mechanical advantage of hydraulics to overcome? A cable system I already have and won't cost me anything other than a little bit of grease to reinstall in this new project. Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. |
Jet Outboard Steering
"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. |
Jet Outboard Steering
Bob,
My comments apply to the choice between hydraulic vs. cable steering. You certainly have a biased case because you own an unemployed cable system, so your decision of using one over the other, in this case only, is based on "Does the extra value of hydraulics warrant the cost over no cost for the existing cable system?" Your call. My comments about installation and buying parts refer to the design of the hydraulic system. There are several ways to make mistakes. So it is important to do your own arithmetic verifying other's recommendations before buying parts. On the subject of maintenance, failures are very rare if either system is installed correctly. There is simply not enough use time in a season were wear is a cause of failure. What failures I have seen are usually corrosion issues, which resulted in a poor choice of parts and system components. Steve |
Jet Outboard Steering
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
... Bob, My comments apply to the choice between hydraulic vs. cable steering. You certainly have a biased case because you own an unemployed cable system, so your decision of using one over the other, in this case only, is based on "Does the extra value of hydraulics warrant the cost over no cost for the existing cable system?" Your call. My comments about installation and buying parts refer to the design of the hydraulic system. There are several ways to make mistakes. So it is important to do your own arithmetic verifying other's recommendations before buying parts. On the subject of maintenance, failures are very rare if either system is installed correctly. There is simply not enough use time in a season were wear is a cause of failure. What failures I have seen are usually corrosion issues, which resulted in a poor choice of parts and system components. Steve I have seen seals start to leak on several bass boats. Since bass boats are a breed apart with bigger ones really being high speed hulls with fishing platforms they tend to see more abuse than other boats. The bass boats I see tend to be the ones that are used as often as mine. In a good year that's 2-3 days a week. We also fish all year around. This year its only been about once a week. I had a seal start to go on my big boat and replaced the entire steering cylinder with a heavier duty one. (at the same time I upgraded my motor from a 225 to 250 ProXS.) The original was five years old. That is pretty good, but it was about $600 after shopping around for a new cylinder and an hour to swap it. Replacing the seal would have been cheaper, but would have added another hour or two to the cost of fixing it. Now clearly cable steering would have been totally unsuitable for handling this much horsepower, and 225 horsepower produces an incredible amount of side torque to put strain on everything when its run most of the time at 80-90% of redline. (Bass anglers tend to have two speeds. Running down the river like your hair is on fire, and idle.) You might argue of course that because there was a heavier cylinder available that the original was poor selection of components. The boat manufacturer selected it when they built the boat, and the steering components manufacturer said it was fine for the application. On that same 225 outboard I have had to replace trim ram seals twice in the same period. Obviously hydraulics do sometimes need maintenance and the repairs when they do are not trivial for somebody who works for a wage. I'm not arguing your points in particular. I'm just saying that in some applications the maintenance and repairs may be considerably higher than you think. My particular application that I want to build is a 8-10 degree dead rise pocket tunnel with large sponsons and relatively wide beam using my old 225 with a Outboard Jet Company AR lower unit for winter low water level river running. Since as a jet it will have no side torque and the cables worked fine handling a 150 I was wondering if there would be any unexpected problems using them to run a jet. The jet will net about 160 at the pump if general calculations hold true. |
Jet Outboard Steering
"WaIIy" wrote in message
... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. You are the one that asked the question. I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question. Quit being such a dickhead. But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question. Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems in his further reply. Bob La Londe Yuma, Az |
Jet Outboard Steering
On Sep 25, 11:04*pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote:
"deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. *I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. *which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. *Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. *If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. *I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. *Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. *As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. *I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. *With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. *My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. *I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. *He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. *I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. Thanks for the input. Yes this is a fresh installation. Do not currently have a steering system and I am trying to find out which method is better. The cable systems that I am looking at are of the type you described, that being a jacketed cable system. I haven't seen anything in supply store web sites about hydraulic, so the first time heard of them was right here. any other ideas, thoughts or inputs are greatly appreciated. currently the boat is upside-down and slowly getting the battens, sheers, and chine placed so I can shape the stem/keel and get ready to cover it. I have already purchased the plywood (marine grade fir) to cover it, and will be glassing that after finishing up. Steve D |
Jet Outboard Steering
"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
... On Sep 25, 11:04 pm, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. Thanks for the input. Yes this is a fresh installation. Do not currently have a steering system and I am trying to find out which method is better. The cable systems that I am looking at are of the type you described, that being a jacketed cable system. I haven't seen anything in supply store web sites about hydraulic, so the first time heard of them was right here. any other ideas, thoughts or inputs are greatly appreciated. currently the boat is upside-down and slowly getting the battens, sheers, and chine placed so I can shape the stem/keel and get ready to cover it. I have already purchased the plywood (marine grade fir) to cover it, and will be glassing that after finishing up. I'm no expert on hydraulics, although I have had a couple boats with hydraulic steering. If you decide to go that way or atleast investigate it more thoroughly I suggest you start by beginning a new thread here. (since I already torqued Steve L and Wally (pun intended) in this thread.) I do not doubt Steve is well versed in hydraulic steering and could guide you towards the best compromise between price and durability for your application. I suspect that a dual cable steering would probably be overkill for you, but I have not run single cable on anything over 60HP personally. I also think the side torque of two 40s will be greater than that of a single 80 unless they are counter rotating (which I think is unlikely in that size). For that low of an HP rating almost any decent hydraulic will probably allow you to steer with one hand. Teleflex is one company who makes hydraulic steering systems. There may be others, but it's the one I am familiar with. |
Jet Outboard Steering
You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine
controls. I do not know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell you that friction is the killer in control systems. Manufacturers do not recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube. I hate cable....anything else is better. On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to a system being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers. Manufacturers make their profit from selling hulls, not accessories. Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost item. They are always cheap acquisitions, often undersize and made from less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the manufacturer does NOT give it credence in use. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... "WaIIy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. You are the one that asked the question. I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question. Quit being such a dickhead. But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question. Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems in his further reply. Bob La Londe Yuma, Az |
Jet Outboard Steering
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Jet Outboard Steering
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. |
Jet Outboard Steering
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
... You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine controls. I do not know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell you that friction is the killer in control systems. Manufacturers do not recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube. I hate cable....anything else is better. Dang Steve. I gotta respect a response like that. The lubrication point on most steering cables is at the slide mechanism on the outboard, and it's the only point I have ever lubricated. I do it once a year. Just enough to load up my gun. (I hand loaded a gun with marine Triple Grease - never wheel bearing grease for these points) Same as I lubricate the pivot on the outboard. Most people don't even think about it if they have a good marine shop because they do it for them as part of their "annual" service. On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to a system being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers. Manufacturers make their profit from selling hulls, not accessories. Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost item. They are always cheap acquisitions, often undersize and made from less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the manufacturer does NOT give it credence in use. Steve Environment is a contributing factor. Most people don't considered that ambient natural radiation in the desert. Of course most people don't think about people operating boats in the desert either. Plastics and rubbers (generic abuse of the words here) tend to degrade at an abnormal rate in SW Az. And as I have mentioned many of the boats I am familiar push the edge of their envelope as part of their design. Fair enough about manufacturers. I am a communications contractor and I have experienced "uninformed beta testing" once or twice. LOL. "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... "WaIIy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. You are the one that asked the question. I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question. Quit being such a dickhead. But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question. Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems in his further reply. Bob La Londe Yuma, Az |
Jet Outboard Steering
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Jet Outboard Steering
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message . .. On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a manufacturer. |
Jet Outboard Steering
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a manufacturer. Sure and so is Kleenex and like Kleenex teleflex has become a generic name for a push-pull control cable. As has, to almost the same extent. Morse Cable. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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