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#11
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine
controls. I do not know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell you that friction is the killer in control systems. Manufacturers do not recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube. I hate cable....anything else is better. On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to a system being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers. Manufacturers make their profit from selling hulls, not accessories. Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost item. They are always cheap acquisitions, often undersize and made from less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the manufacturer does NOT give it credence in use. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... "WaIIy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. You are the one that asked the question. I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question. Quit being such a dickhead. But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question. Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems in his further reply. Bob La Londe Yuma, Az |
#12
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#13
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. |
#14
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
... You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine controls. I do not know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell you that friction is the killer in control systems. Manufacturers do not recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube. I hate cable....anything else is better. Dang Steve. I gotta respect a response like that. The lubrication point on most steering cables is at the slide mechanism on the outboard, and it's the only point I have ever lubricated. I do it once a year. Just enough to load up my gun. (I hand loaded a gun with marine Triple Grease - never wheel bearing grease for these points) Same as I lubricate the pivot on the outboard. Most people don't even think about it if they have a good marine shop because they do it for them as part of their "annual" service. On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to a system being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers. Manufacturers make their profit from selling hulls, not accessories. Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost item. They are always cheap acquisitions, often undersize and made from less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the manufacturer does NOT give it credence in use. Steve Environment is a contributing factor. Most people don't considered that ambient natural radiation in the desert. Of course most people don't think about people operating boats in the desert either. Plastics and rubbers (generic abuse of the words here) tend to degrade at an abnormal rate in SW Az. And as I have mentioned many of the boats I am familiar push the edge of their envelope as part of their design. Fair enough about manufacturers. I am a communications contractor and I have experienced "uninformed beta testing" once or twice. LOL. "Bob La Londe" wrote in message ... "WaIIy" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good! Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering, but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete perfectly working dual cable steering system. You are the one that asked the question. I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question. Quit being such a dickhead. But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question. Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic systems in his further reply. Bob La Londe Yuma, Az |
#15
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
#16
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
news On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message . .. On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a manufacturer. |
#17
posted to rec.boats.building
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Jet Outboard Steering
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message news On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe" wrote: "deerelk4x4" wrote in message ... On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote: If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional inspection. Steve "Bob La Londe" wrote in ... As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic systems. I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in the next couple months and I have a bigger project in mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a time. Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install with least amount of follow-on maintenance. Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use. Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back there. I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables made to handle the application. You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system? If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull system isn't used more on sail boats. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not. I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe. LOL. Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single cable. Less confusion. But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a manufacturer. Sure and so is Kleenex and like Kleenex teleflex has become a generic name for a push-pull control cable. As has, to almost the same extent. Morse Cable. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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