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  #11   Report Post  
Old September 27th 10, 08:21 AM posted to rec.boats.building
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Posts: 430
Default Jet Outboard Steering

You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine
controls. I do not know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell you that friction is the killer in
control systems. Manufacturers do not recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube. I hate
cable....anything else is better.

On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to
a system being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers. Manufacturers make their profit from selling
hulls, not accessories. Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost item. They are always cheap
acquisitions, often undersize and made from less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the manufacturer
does NOT give it credence in use.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message ...
"WaIIy" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:


Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good!

Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable steering,
but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not
dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete
perfectly working dual cable steering system.


You are the one that asked the question.


I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I asked if there was any reason other than side torque not
to use a perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not answer that question.

Quit being such a dickhead.


But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly
incorrect they still really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap of superiority at it and made an
absolute statement that didn't really apply to the question.

Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering systems might need that would cost more to maintain
than hydraulic systems in his further reply.

Bob La Londe
Yuma, Az





  #12   Report Post  
Old September 27th 10, 11:50 AM posted to rec.boats.building
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First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Aug 2009
Posts: 321
Default Jet Outboard Steering

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.


Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.


Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however. If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger, speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables
made to handle the application.



You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is
somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system?

If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull
system isn't used more on sail boats.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
  #13   Report Post  
Old September 27th 10, 04:23 PM posted to rec.boats.building
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Sep 2010
Posts: 19
Default Jet Outboard Steering

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much
less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously
push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too
in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.


Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however.
If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an
issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger,
speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine
with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how
you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore
rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is
that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables
made to handle the application.



You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is
somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system?

If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull
system isn't used more on sail boats.



I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not.
I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards
single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I
did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards
larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a
sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale
boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe.
LOL.





  #14   Report Post  
Old September 27th 10, 04:34 PM posted to rec.boats.building
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Sep 2010
Posts: 19
Default Jet Outboard Steering

"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
You are correct Bob. I didn't answer that question because I don't know
the answer. I don't use cable systems except for engine controls. I do not
know how relevant that experience is to steering systems, but I can tell
you that friction is the killer in control systems. Manufacturers do not
recommend any lubrication as lubricants cause swelling of the liner tube.
I hate cable....anything else is better.


Dang Steve. I gotta respect a response like that. The lubrication point on
most steering cables is at the slide mechanism on the outboard, and it's the
only point I have ever lubricated. I do it once a year. Just enough to
load up my gun. (I hand loaded a gun with marine Triple Grease - never
wheel bearing grease for these points) Same as I lubricate the pivot on the
outboard. Most people don't even think about it if they have a good marine
shop because they do it for them as part of their "annual" service.

On your hydraulic experiences, seal failures should not occur and
certainly not at the frequency you state. Seal failures point to a system
being used beyond its design envelope. Like I said, do your own numbers.
Manufacturers make their profit from selling hulls, not accessories.
Accessories are, to them, a necessary evil because they represent a cost
item. They are always cheap acquisitions, often undersize and made from
less than optimum material. Just because the damn thing came from the
manufacturer does NOT give it credence in use.
Steve


Environment is a contributing factor. Most people don't considered that
ambient natural radiation in the desert. Of course most people don't think
about people operating boats in the desert either. Plastics and rubbers
(generic abuse of the words here) tend to degrade at an abnormal rate in SW
Az. And as I have mentioned many of the boats I am familiar push the edge
of their envelope as part of their design. Fair enough about manufacturers.
I am a communications contractor and I have experienced "uninformed beta
testing" once or twice. LOL.





"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
...
"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 19:52:26 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:


Ugh! Cable bad! Juice good!

Steve. I know properly working hydraulics are superior to cable
steering,
but seriously. Is it an overriding must have or you will die when not
dealing with side torque? Especially if you already have a complete
perfectly working dual cable steering system.

You are the one that asked the question.


I didn't ask if hydraulic steering was superior to cable steering. I
asked if there was any reason other than side torque not to use a
perfectly functional cable steering system already in hand. He did not
answer that question.

Quit being such a dickhead.


But he didn't answer the question I asked, and made some statements that
are not 100% correct. While most were not majorly incorrect they still
really didn't answer the question asked. He just gave the kneejerk slap
of superiority at it and made an absolute statement that didn't really
apply to the question.

Further, he never followed up with what other maintenance cable steering
systems might need that would cost more to maintain than hydraulic
systems in his further reply.

Bob La Londe
Yuma, Az




  #15   Report Post  
Old September 28th 10, 01:50 AM posted to rec.boats.building
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Aug 2009
Posts: 321
Default Jet Outboard Steering

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much
less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously
push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too
in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however.
If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an
issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger,
speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine
with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how
you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore
rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is
that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull cables
made to handle the application.



You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is
somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system?

If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull
system isn't used more on sail boats.



I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is not.
I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards
single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I
did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards
larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a
sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with sale
boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a canoe.
LOL.

Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single
cable. Less confusion.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


  #16   Report Post  
Old September 28th 10, 03:27 AM posted to rec.boats.building
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Sep 2010
Posts: 1
Default Jet Outboard Steering

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would
never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much
less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications
it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously
push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too
in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time
with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however.
If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an
issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic
steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no
issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger,
speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn
under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons
world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP
motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine
with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how
you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore
rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is
that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s
back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull
cables
made to handle the application.


You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is
somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system?

If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull
system isn't used more on sail boats.



I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is
not.
I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards
single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I
did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards
larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a
sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with
sale
boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a
canoe.
LOL.

Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single
cable. Less confusion.


But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a
manufacturer.

  #17   Report Post  
Old September 28th 10, 01:37 PM posted to rec.boats.building
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by BoatBanter: Aug 2009
Posts: 321
Default Jet Outboard Steering

On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:52 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:23:09 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:04:37 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

"deerelk4x4" wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 2:45 am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
If you ever used a PROPERLY installed hydraulic system, you would
never
use a cable system again. It is easy to make mistakes so
you must do your arithmetic before you buy the parts. In the end, the
cost difference is minimal. your assumption of similar
maintenance between hydraulic and cable is flat wrong. There is much
less
maintenance on hydraulic systems. In fact, if designed
and installed correctly there is No maintenance, just occasional
inspection.
Steve

"Bob La Londe" wrote in
...

As I'm sure you are aware in a lot of bigger outboard applications
it
can be really hard to turn the wheel under high throttle
due to side torque. Its why a lot of (most?) bigger bass boats have
hydraulic steering. Any reason you can see not to go with
dual cable push pull steering on with a jet lower unit? Obviously
push
pull cables require maintenance, but so do hydraulic
systems.

I'm probably going to wrap up the weld & rebuild on The Tin Can Too
in
the next couple months and I have a bigger project in
mind. I already have a decent push pull system laying around from
another boat I cut up and threw in the dumpster a piece at a
time.

Is it recommended to use a cable or hydraulic system with outboard
units. I am building aboat that is supposed to have twin 40's and I
will need a steering system. which is better and easier to install
with least amount of follow-on maintenance.

Hydraulics ARE easier to steer with and require less force to use.
Hydraulics sized properly for your application will last a long time
with
minimal maintenance. Repairs will cost more when it is needed however.
If
you are using counter rotating engines side torque will be less of an
issue
and with the small motors you are using it won't as bad as if you were
running bigger motors anyway. I would still go with a hydraulic
steering
system if I had no steering system already. Tons of bassers had no
issue
steering 150 HP motors with cable steering. As the motors get bigger,
speed
gets higher, and the RPMs climb it becomes harder and harder to turn
under
power with cable steering. I can't imagine driving one of Allisons
world
record setters without hydraulics, but I have two boats with 50 HP
motors
and top speeds of 32 mph and 44 mph respectively that handle just fine
with
cable steering. With two motors as far as I know they only issue is how
you
choose to link your motors together. My dad's inshore / light offshore
rig
has dual motors. I can look at it if you like, but I don't think it is
that
big of a deal. He is running hydraulic steering, but he as dual 150s
back
there.

I would like to point out that when I say cable steering I DO NOT MEAN a
cable drum with ropes and pullys. I mean linear jacketed push pull
cables
made to handle the application.


You seem to be saying that the outboard single push-pull cable is
somehow "better" then a double cable drum and quadrant system?

If this is correct it is a bit confusing why the single push-pull
system isn't used more on sail boats.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that single cable was superior. It is
not.
I was just trying to point out that for smaller (relatively) outboards
single cable steering is adequate, and in another post I referenced that I
did not have personal experience with single cable steering on outboards
larger than 60HP. Also, I would not have a clue what mechanical issue a
sailboat might have to deal with. I have zero personal experience with
sale
boats... well if you don't count the umbrella trick when operating a
canoe.
LOL.

Perhaps we should use the term "teleflex cable" rather then single
cable. Less confusion.


But my hydraulics are "Teleflex" LOL. Teleflex is the name of a
manufacturer.


Sure and so is Kleenex and like Kleenex teleflex has become a generic
name for a push-pull control cable. As has, to almost the same extent.
Morse Cable.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


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