Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.


I've heard it referred to as brightwork?

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:25 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.


I've heard it referred to as brightwork?

I think that "brightwork" usually refers to varnished or gilded trim.
Perhaps "coachwork", but it is a guess.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:25 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.

I've heard it referred to as brightwork?

I think that "brightwork" usually refers to varnished or gilded trim.
Perhaps "coachwork", but it is a guess.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I think I picked that up from Patrick O'Brien.
The gilded part is the trick he was referring to.

Paint, in the olden days, wasn't used all that much.
Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

And varnish? Never heard of.
Lacquer, yes, but seldom on ships.


Richard

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Do you mean the gilded carved work which was often referred to as
‘gingerbread’?


Dec 30, 9:19*pm, Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:25 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.

I've heard it referred to as brightwork?

I think that "brightwork" usually refers to varnished or gilded trim.
Perhaps "coachwork", but it is a guess.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I think I picked that up from Patrick O'Brien.
The gilded part is the trick he was referring to.

Paint, in the olden days, wasn't used all that much.
Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

And varnish? Never heard of.
Lacquer, yes, but seldom on ships.


Richard

Red not available? Red is one of the more common colors available to
primitive people. Iron oxide in one form or another. Barn paint was
ferrous oxide or even red laterite, lime and sour milk. However this
was hardly a bright, vibrant red :-)

Varnishes were available and used to protect paintings since at least
the 1400's and consisted of natural resins. But unlikely to have been
used aboard ship, other then perhaps the captains personal
furnishings.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:25 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.
I've heard it referred to as brightwork?
I think that "brightwork" usually refers to varnished or gilded trim.
Perhaps "coachwork", but it is a guess.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

I think I picked that up from Patrick O'Brien.
The gilded part is the trick he was referring to.

Paint, in the olden days, wasn't used all that much.
Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

And varnish? Never heard of.
Lacquer, yes, but seldom on ships.


Richard

Red not available? Red is one of the more common colors available to
primitive people. Iron oxide in one form or another. Barn paint was
ferrous oxide or even red laterite, lime and sour milk. However this
was hardly a bright, vibrant red :-)

Varnishes were available and used to protect paintings since at least
the 1400's and consisted of natural resins. But unlikely to have been
used aboard ship, other then perhaps the captains personal
furnishings.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

And red ochre used by many tribes around the world.

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Gingerbread! I knew it was something along those lines!

Thanks!

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:27:25 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Every time wrote:
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.
I've heard it referred to as brightwork?
I think that "brightwork" usually refers to varnished or gilded trim.
Perhaps "coachwork", but it is a guess.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

I think I picked that up from Patrick O'Brien.
The gilded part is the trick he was referring to.

Paint, in the olden days, wasn't used all that much.
Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

And varnish? Never heard of.
Lacquer, yes, but seldom on ships.


Richard

Red not available? Red is one of the more common colors available to
primitive people. Iron oxide in one form or another. Barn paint was
ferrous oxide or even red laterite, lime and sour milk. However this
was hardly a bright, vibrant red :-)

Exactly. The really really reds came from Germany just before WW-1

Varnishes were available and used to protect paintings since at least
the 1400's and consisted of natural resins. But unlikely to have been
used aboard ship, other then perhaps the captains personal
furnishings.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Dec 31 2009, 11:02*am, Every time wrote:
Gingerbread! I knew it was something along those lines!

Thanks!

No, that is not it.

Its called the Taffrail.

Look in wikipedia for a picture of a "taffrail."

The term comes from the Dutch word for an ornately decorated stern of
a ship

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

"Every time" wrote in message
...
My question might be too estoteric for this group, but thought I'd
give it a try anyway.

I am trying to think of the term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc. It's on the tip of my tongue - I used to know what it
was called - but it just won't come to me.

Not fretwork, or cottagework, or Tudorwork, but something along those
lines.

Any help appreciated.

The whole elaborately decorated stern area of a ship like the Victory was
collectively called the "stern galleries". There was generally a stern
gallery for each deck, with the lowest one enclosed behind the stern windows
(yes, that's what they were called, not ports).The galleries above on ships
with more decks were open, allowing the officers to step out onto them. All
the elaborately carved decoration was called, in those days, "carved works".
On the two aft sides of this ship just forward of the stern galleries were a
pair of enclosed quarter-galleries, one of which used as the captain's
bathroom.

By the 1790's that elaborate carved work was beginning to fall out of favor,
as a cost savings, and subsequently it was limited to simpler bas-relief
carving and paint instead of gilding. Also by that time it was beginning to
be common to paint the sides of the ships. Ocher was popular, and red also
began to appear. After the Battle of Trafalgar, it became popular to paint
the strakes containing the gun ports in a checkerboard yellow and black
pattern, called "Nelson's chequer" after his origination of the style, and
ships that had been in the battle, and their captains, were often called
"Nelson's chequer players".


Tom Dacon

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:27:38 -0800 (PST), "jim.isbell"
wrote:

On Dec 31 2009, 11:02*am, Every time wrote:
Gingerbread! I knew it was something along those lines!

Thanks!

No, that is not it.

Its called the Taffrail.

Look in wikipedia for a picture of a "taffrail."

The term comes from the Dutch word for an ornately decorated stern of
a ship


I did as you directed and read, "A Taffrail is the aftermost railing
around the stern of a ship, often, but not always, ornately carved. A
taffrail log is an object dragged from the stern ..."

Note the "often, but not always, ornately carved".

Try
http://images.google.co.th/images?q=... d=0CCIQsAQwAw
more information on taffrail.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Jan 1, 6:34*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:27:38 -0800 (PST), "jim.isbell"

wrote:
On Dec 31 2009, 11:02*am, Every time wrote:
Gingerbread! I knew it was something along those lines!

Thanks!

No, that is not it.

Its called the Taffrail.

Look in wikipedia for a picture of a "taffrail."

The term comes from the Dutch word for an ornately decorated stern of
a ship

That is the "newer" definition. It comes from the original Dutch
which SPECIFICALLY refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.
Wikipedia shows a picture of the stern of such a ship in their
definition. Later it came to refer to ONLY the upper rail. But the
original poster wanted to know the term to refer to the ornately
decorated stern. Taffrail IS that term. Gingerbread is a landlubber
term for the decorations under the eves of the house often seen at the
peak of the roof. It does not refer to a boat.


I did as you directed and read, "A Taffrail is the aftermost railing
around the stern of a ship, often, but not always, ornately carved. A
taffrail log is an object dragged from the stern ..."

Note the "often, but not always, ornately carved".

Tryhttp://images.google.co.th/images?q=taffrail&oe=utf-8&rls=com.ubuntu:...
more information on taffrail.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 08:16:41 -0800 (PST), "jim.isbell"
wrote:

On Jan 1, 6:34*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jan 2010 08:27:38 -0800 (PST), "jim.isbell"

wrote:
On Dec 31 2009, 11:02*am, Every time wrote:
Gingerbread! I knew it was something along those lines!

Thanks!

No, that is not it.

Its called the Taffrail.

Look in wikipedia for a picture of a "taffrail."

The term comes from the Dutch word for an ornately decorated stern of
a ship

That is the "newer" definition. It comes from the original Dutch
which SPECIFICALLY refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.
Wikipedia shows a picture of the stern of such a ship in their
definition. Later it came to refer to ONLY the upper rail. But the
original poster wanted to know the term to refer to the ornately
decorated stern. Taffrail IS that term. Gingerbread is a landlubber
term for the decorations under the eves of the house often seen at the
peak of the roof. It does not refer to a boat.

First you state that taffrail comes from the Dutch word for an ornate
stern of a ship and then you state that it comes from the word that
specifically refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the term applies to a
stern or a rail.

The closest word in Dutch might be "tafel" - which means table.
Gebeeldhouwd means carved and a carved railing would be gebeeldhouwd
hekwerk.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 07:57:22 +0700 Bruce In Bangkok
) wrote:
First you state that taffrail comes from the Dutch word for an ornate
stern of a ship and then you state that it comes from the word that
specifically refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the term applies to a
stern or a rail.

The closest word in Dutch might be "tafel" - which means table.
Gebeeldhouwd means carved and a carved railing would be gebeeldhouwd
hekwerk.

Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel": http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail

--
Richard
e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 13:59:14 GMT, Richard van den Berg
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 07:57:22 +0700 Bruce In Bangkok
) wrote:
First you state that taffrail comes from the Dutch word for an ornate
stern of a ship and then you state that it comes from the word that
specifically refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the term applies to a
stern or a rail.

The closest word in Dutch might be "tafel" - which means table.
Gebeeldhouwd means carved and a carved railing would be gebeeldhouwd
hekwerk.

Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel": http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail


Yes, tafereel translate to " picture, scene, description" in modern
Dutch,

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

Richard van den Berg wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 07:57:22 +0700 Bruce In Bangkok
) wrote:
First you state that taffrail comes from the Dutch word for an ornate
stern of a ship and then you state that it comes from the word that
specifically refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the term applies to a
stern or a rail.

The closest word in Dutch might be "tafel" - which means table.
Gebeeldhouwd means carved and a carved railing would be gebeeldhouwd
hekwerk.

Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel": http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail


Ha! Bruce has many fine qualities, among which, the ready acceptance of
a better answer than the one on which he has settled, does not show up.
He will continue to argue the merits to unusual lengths. Watch!

Brian W

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:56:54 -0600 brian whatcott
) wrote:
Richard van den Berg wrote:

Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel": http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail


Ha! Bruce has many fine qualities, among which, the ready acceptance of
a better answer than the one on which he has settled, does not show up.
He will continue to argue the merits to unusual lengths. Watch!

Already at the start i found taffrail very much sounding like tafereel,
but my translation would be "scenery", not very shiplike.
The ongoing discussion made me put the two words in Google with a "what
the heck" with a kind of surprising answer and some history.
I'll wait if better explanations emerge ;-)

--
Richard
e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

I submit that the original poster asked, "I am trying to think of the
term used to describe the ornate sterns of
ships such as the HMS Victory, with the windows and the gold
scrollwork, etc." He was NOT looking for something to describe the
top rail.

Thus, according to this current post, "Yes, tafereel translate to "
picture, scene, description" in modern
Dutch, ", shows its descendancy.

I believe that my comment that Taffrail was the correct term is
correct. The sterns of ships were pictures or scenes, just as you
would suspect. The more modern use of the word in marine environment
is for the upper rail. BUT that is not what the poster asked for.
He asked for the term to describe the ornate sterns of the ships and
Taffrail is that term. AND, Gingerbread is definitely NOT.




On Jan 4, 6:56*am, brian whatcott wrote:
Richard van den Berg wrote:



On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 07:57:22 +0700 Bruce In Bangkok
) wrote:
First you state that taffrail comes from the Dutch word for an ornate
stern of a ship and then you state that it comes from the word that
specifically refers to an ornately decorated stern rail.

I don't think you can have it both ways. Either the term applies to a
stern or a rail.

The closest word in Dutch might be "tafel" - which means table.
Gebeeldhouwd means carved and a carved railing would be gebeeldhouwd
hekwerk.

Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel":http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail

Ha! Bruce has many fine qualities, among which, the ready acceptance of
a better answer than the one on which he has settled, does not show up.
* He will continue to argue the merits to unusual lengths. Watch!

Brian W

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Jan 4, 3:02*pm, Richard van den Berg
wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 06:56:54 -0600 brian whatcott

) wrote:
Richard van den Berg wrote:
Taffrail sounds also very much like "tafereel" and guess what Google
gave with "taffrail tafereel":http://www.dictionary.net/taffrail

Gingerbread Hatches: Luxurious quarters.

Gingerbread Work: Profusely carved decorations of a ship.

Taffrail, or Taffarel: The upper part of a ships stern, a curved
railing, the ends of which unite to the quarter-pieces.

Definitions from;

The sailors Lexicon, The Classic Source for More Than 15,000 Nautical
Terms. by Admiral W. H. Smyth (1788-1865), first issued 1867, 1996
edition, Published 2005, Hearst Books, New York. ISBN 1-58816-281-8.



Ha! Bruce has many fine qualities, among which, the ready acceptance of
a better answer than the one on which he has settled, does not show up.
* He will continue to argue the merits to unusual lengths. Watch!

Already at the start i found taffrail very much sounding like tafereel,
but my translation would be "scenery", not very shiplike.
The ongoing discussion made me put the two words in Google with a "what
the heck" with a kind of surprising answer and some history.
I'll wait if better explanations emerge ;-)

--
Richard
e-mail: vervang/replace invalid door/with NL.net

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

Red was the most available color of them all because it is the
cheapest. Barn paint has iron oxide for a pigment and is cheaper than
white or anything else. That is why they use it.

Casady

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:50:12 -0600, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

Red was the most available color of them all because it is the
cheapest. Barn paint has iron oxide for a pigment and is cheaper than
white or anything else. That is why they use it.

Casady

In the days of wooden ships, the most common color was black, because
that is the color of the tar they slathered on the hull.

Red tar was pretty hard to find.

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 18:28:16 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:50:12 -0600, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

Red was the most available color of them all because it is the
cheapest. Barn paint has iron oxide for a pigment and is cheaper than
white or anything else. That is why they use it.

Casady

In the days of wooden ships, the most common color was black, because
that is the color of the tar they slathered on the hull.

Red tar was pretty hard to find.

Ok smartass. Where did they get the tar base white and blue? They used
huge quantities of linseed oil based paints.. Lampblack is not cheaper
than iron ore. The white pigment was lead carbonate and lead has never
been cheap

Term for the ornate stern of ships like HMS Victory
 

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:17:53 -0600, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 18:28:16 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:50:12 -0600, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:07:12 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Mostly for trim coloring, ala the Nelson Checker (black and white) with the
occasional blue or yellow. Red wasn't really available.

Red was the most available color of them all because it is the
cheapest. Barn paint has iron oxide for a pigment and is cheaper than
white or anything else. That is why they use it.

Casady

In the days of wooden ships, the most common color was black, because
that is the color of the tar they slathered on the hull.

Red tar was pretty hard to find.

Ok smartass. Where did they get the tar base white and blue? They used
huge quantities of linseed oil based paints.. Lampblack is not cheaper
than iron ore. The white pigment was lead carbonate and lead has never
been cheap


Lead based white paint was what painted all the picturesque buildings
in New England and most of the red barns were covered with a red lead
based paint, at least in modern times, and New Englanders are noted
for being "close with a dollar".

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)