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Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
I want to tell you a short story to give you background, then ask for
your advice about entering a race series. I have rearranged my schedule so that I can sail next June-October in a Wednesday night "Beer-Can" race series. I'll be sailing a Catalina 250 or 27 in the "Cruiser" class. (No spinnakers) I would like to implement a plan that does the following: 1. Put together a crew. (Or if I can put together two crews, we can practice/race together to keep an edge on and learn together until June.) 2. Begin practicing and learning on Wednesdays until June. 3. Compete and do well in the series. My background/experience: a. Completed beginner, intermediate and advanced U.S. Navy classes (qualified to rent Cat 250's and Cat 27's.) b. Crewed in a few races. c. 100+ hours local sailing experience. I have several books on racing and rules. I understand the basics of rules, but right now, lose most rules in the heat of the moment. I've ordered a bunch of sailing books. I'm getting a feel for rigging and getting in a groove upwind, but have no clue what I'm doing downwind. (If the strategy is anything but head for the downwind mark, I'm not sure what course(s) to steer and why.) I'm starting to build checklists for what to do at the dock, in the hour before the race, etc. so I can get into a structure routine. So..... My questions... How do you like my plan? What is your advice on things to do, include or avoid? What can I do when there are no other boats around to find out how I'm doing? |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Practice, Practice, PRACTICE!
"Richard" wrote in message ps.com... I want to tell you a short story to give you background, then ask for your advice about entering a race series. I have rearranged my schedule so that I can sail next June-October in a Wednesday night "Beer-Can" race series. I'll be sailing a Catalina 250 or 27 in the "Cruiser" class. (No spinnakers) I would like to implement a plan that does the following: 1. Put together a crew. (Or if I can put together two crews, we can practice/race together to keep an edge on and learn together until June.) 2. Begin practicing and learning on Wednesdays until June. 3. Compete and do well in the series. My background/experience: a. Completed beginner, intermediate and advanced U.S. Navy classes (qualified to rent Cat 250's and Cat 27's.) b. Crewed in a few races. c. 100+ hours local sailing experience. I have several books on racing and rules. I understand the basics of rules, but right now, lose most rules in the heat of the moment. I've ordered a bunch of sailing books. I'm getting a feel for rigging and getting in a groove upwind, but have no clue what I'm doing downwind. (If the strategy is anything but head for the downwind mark, I'm not sure what course(s) to steer and why.) I'm starting to build checklists for what to do at the dock, in the hour before the race, etc. so I can get into a structure routine. So..... My questions... How do you like my plan? What is your advice on things to do, include or avoid? What can I do when there are no other boats around to find out how I'm doing? |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Richard wrote:
I want to tell you a short story to give you background, then ask for your advice about entering a race series. I have rearranged my schedule so that I can sail next June-October in a Wednesday night "Beer-Can" race series. I'll be sailing a Catalina 250 or 27 in the "Cruiser" class. (No spinnakers) Which is it? Since you say "Cruiser Class" I'm guessing that you are racing handicap rather than one-design. The Catalina 27 has a one- design fleet in many areas. I would like to implement a plan that does the following: 1. Put together a crew. (Or if I can put together two crews, we can practice/race together to keep an edge on and learn together until June.) That can be a challenge all by itself. Even experienced skippers with more enticing rides can take time to pull together a good crew. 2. Begin practicing and learning on Wednesdays until June. 3. Compete and do well in the series. Check. My background/experience: a. Completed beginner, intermediate and advanced U.S. Navy classes (qualified to rent Cat 250's and Cat 27's.) b. Crewed in a few races. c. 100+ hours local sailing experience. You sound like a well organized & rational person... problem is, this is not a rational sport! I think you would learn a LOT more, a lot faster, by racing in a 1 or 2 person unballasted one-design boats. There are far less uncontrollable or difficult to explain (let alone fix) factors. I have several books on racing and rules. I understand the basics of rules, but right now, lose most rules in the heat of the moment. As long as you have a grasp of the 4 basic situations: port/starboard windward/leeward ahead/astern overlapped at a mark or obstruction and can keep control of the boat & your temper, you'll do fine with rules until you are going to higher level races. I've ordered a bunch of sailing books. Forget "a bunch" of books. Get and read this one "Start To Win" by Eric Twiname. http://www.amazon.com/Start-Win-Eric...1362016&sr=8-1 It is by far the clearest, best-organized, and readable book on how to do well in sailboat races. If you grasp the material in this book, you will be schooling most any local fleet and getting silver in most national fleets. I'm getting a feel for rigging and getting in a groove upwind Pointing versus footing? Shifting gears for lulls, waves, traffic? Depowering when it's gusty? Not ot mention boat-related issues which are all very exaggerated with larger heavier less-uniform boats. You could put Paul Elvstrom in a clapped-out Catalina 27 with a few barnacles and he'll lose to Joe Sixpack with a well tuned C27. Then there's the issue of handicapping..... :( but have no clue what I'm doing downwind. (If the strategy is anything but head for the downwind mark, I'm not sure what course(s) to steer and why.) Again, a complex subject. Basically you maximize VMG according to what options the apparent wind gives you. It's the opposite of sailing upwind (duh) in that you *want* to go into a header. You go up in the lulls, down in the gusts. When the is powered up just aim at the mark. This is one reason why my advice is, if you're serious about learning to race, start off in smaller, simpler, more evenly-matched boats. One reason why most PHRF fleets are such cluster-f*xx is that few of them know how to sail very well, much less untangle a complex set of wind/ boat trim/navigating priorities on the fly. How do you like my plan? Well, for lack of anything better, you'll meet new people and probably have a lot of fun. What can I do when there are no other boats around to find out how I'm doing? Routine drills to learn how to SAIL your boat. For example, pick a mark like a channel bouy (when there's no traffic going by) and practice 1 minute starts. When you can get you bow slicing a few feet from the bouy, close hauled, right at GO, then you will be prepared to get a good start in a racing fleet... provided you can then prioritize getting a spot in a jumbled fleet, something you can't practice alone.... but you stand NO chance of getting a good start until you can get the boat ON the spot, At the second, and MOVING. Tacking should be second nature. By which I mean, bringing the boat around smoothly, getting up to speed & point on the new tack efficiently. Gybing ditto, but that is actually easier at the basic level & with low-powered boats. Practice some man-overboard & reefing drills too. Give the crew something fun to do and let them feel that they have an important part to play (because they DO) in successfully getting the boat thru any potential problems. Build confidence, too. The guy whose advice you really want is Oz1 but he might not be checking in here these days. Fresh BReezes- Doug King |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Richard,
I raced in the Cruising Class for years, finishing as high as third BUT I never had as much fun as when I had a novice female crew. They didn't give a **** where we finished as long as they where sailing and relaxing. There were times when the Tender had to wait for us to turn a mark so that they could pick up the buoy. My advice, for what's it worth is; ENJOY YOURSELF, train your crew but be a easy captain to sail with. Some Downwind tips. In light air, set your Jib & Main wing on wing; set preventer/downhaul on main and Barber downhaul the Jib.(Whisker pole) Sail the Jib enough by the lee to get boat speed.(I use to give my crew cookies and coffee so they'd sit still in the cockpit after they got the sails set) Keep boat speed up until you're in a position to fetch the Lee Mark on a decent Broad Reach. As the wind increases Broad Reaches with a gybe. When you get close to boat speed set course for mark. Downhaul Sails until you're not comfortable with the wind strength. Remember that with increase wind strength you get increase wave size, which can give you a chance to surf. Good luck and in the Cruising Class ENJOYMENT should be your goal as well as low point total. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Isn't that what the New Yorker responded to the tourist who asked:
"How do I get to Carnegie Hall?" [grin] On Oct 2, 2:57 pm, "Big Jon" wrote: Practice, Practice, PRACTICE! |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
WOW! That's a lot of info. Let me take several points...
I have rearranged my schedule so that I can sail next June-October in a Wednesday night "Beer-Can" race series. I'll be sailing a Catalina 250 or 27 in the "Cruiser" class. (No spinnakers) Which is it? Since you say "Cruiser Class" I'm guessing that you are racing handicap rather than one-design. The Catalina 27 has a one- design fleet in many areas. It's a handicap race. I remember our skipper working hard to cross the finish less than 3-1/2 mins behind the guy in front. We were about 3 mins behind, so beat him. 1. Put together a crew. (Or if I can put together two crews, we can practice/race together to keep an edge on and learn together until June.) That can be a challenge all by itself. Even experienced skippers with more enticing rides can take time to pull together a good crew. I can see that without that, nothing else will follow, so I need a plan there. I do have access to two different marinas with weekly classes at several levels, so a flyer or ad on their bulletin bords seems a good idea. I have several books on racing and rules. I understand the basics of rules, but right now, lose most rules in the heat of the moment. As long as you have a grasp of the 4 basic situations: port/starboard windward/leeward ahead/astern overlapped at a mark or obstruction Got these in my head, but realize in a crowd, I'll have trouble coping until I get more experience/confidence. I've ordered a bunch of sailing books. Forget "a bunch" of books. Get and read this one "Start To Win" by Eric Twiname.http://www.amazon.com/Start-Win-Eric...884/ref=sr_1_1... It is by far the clearest, best-organized, and readable book on how to do well in sailboat races. If you grasp the material in this book, you will be schooling most any local fleet and getting silver in most national fleets. I'll get it right away. Thanks! I'm getting a feel for rigging and getting in a groove upwind Pointing versus footing? Shifting gears for lulls, waves, traffic? Depowering when it's gusty? Let me rephrase: On a beginner *Sailing 101* level, I've got the idea. But in this area, I'm nowhere near ready for the big time. but have no clue what I'm doing downwind. (If the strategy is anything but head for the downwind mark, I'm not sure what course(s) to steer and why.) Again, a complex subject. Basically you maximize VMG according to what options the apparent wind gives you. It's the opposite of sailing upwind (duh) in that you *want* to go into a header. You go up in the lulls, down in the gusts. When the is powered up just aim at the mark. And I've read this, but know that I don't "feel" it yet. Working on this. What can I do when there are no other boats around to find out how I'm doing? Routine drills to learn how to SAIL your boat. For example, pick a mark like a channel bouy (when there's no traffic going by) and practice 1 minute starts. When you can get you bow slicing a few feet from the bouy, close hauled, right at GO, then you will be prepared to get a good start in a racing fleet... provided you can then prioritize getting a spot in a jumbled fleet, something you can't practice alone.... but you stand NO chance of getting a good start until you can get the boat ON the spot, At the second, and MOVING. THANKS! The best practical tip I've gotten so far. I can do this! I'll work on this this weekend. Again, thanks for your time and insights! |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
You read the rules. That's more than most people do before they show
up the first time. Like Doug said you sound like an organized person. Remember it will probably take you an entire season to get the boat up to speed. Don't get frustrated. Don't motor back to the dock ****ed off. Have fun. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... Richard, I raced in the Cruising Class for years, finishing as high as third BUT I never had as much fun as when I had a novice female crew. They didn't give a **** where we finished as long as they where sailing and relaxing. There were times when the Tender had to wait for us to turn a mark so that they could pick up the buoy. My advice, for what's it worth is; ENJOY YOURSELF, train your crew but be a easy captain to sail with. Some Downwind tips. In light air, set your Jib & Main wing on wing; set preventer/downhaul on main and Barber downhaul the Jib.(Whisker pole) Sail the Jib enough by the lee to get boat speed.(I use to give my crew cookies and coffee so they'd sit still in the cockpit after they got the sails set) Keep boat speed up until you're in a position to fetch the Lee Mark on a decent Broad Reach. As the wind increases Broad Reaches with a gybe. When you get close to boat speed set course for mark. Downhaul Sails until you're not comfortable with the wind strength. Remember that with increase wind strength you get increase wave size, which can give you a chance to surf. Good luck and in the Cruising Class ENJOYMENT should be your goal as well as low point total. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- JML Sigs |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... Richard, I raced in the Cruising Class for years, finishing as high as third BUT I never had as much fun as when I had a novice female crew. They didn't give a **** where we finished as long as they where sailing and relaxing. There were times when the Tender had to wait for us to turn a mark so that they could pick up the buoy. My advice, for what's it worth is; ENJOY YOURSELF, train your crew but be a easy captain to sail with. Some Downwind tips. In light air, set your Jib & Main wing on wing; Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Scotty |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Scotty" wrote:
Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Depends on the boat, depends in the conditions. Generally, high-powered boats will benefit from using the sails as foils.... reaching back & forth to get downwind... for example, catamarans get downwind fastest by starting from nearly a beam reach, pulling in the sails enough to fly a hull, then as they accelerate and the wind shift ahead, they bear away gradually until the windward hull is "almost" dropping back in. Iceboats are an even more extreme example. The opposite of a catamaran, say Columbus' Santa Maria, will benefit from spreading out as much square footage of sail as she can and heading straight downwind. A corollary is that the harder the wind blows, the less need there is to reach for power. In 30 knot winds, even the America's Cup guys are happy to just aim the boat straight downwind.... never seen one go wing-and-wing but they probably would DSK |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Scotty" wrote in message
. .. "Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... Richard, I raced in the Cruising Class for years, finishing as high as third BUT I never had as much fun as when I had a novice female crew. They didn't give a **** where we finished as long as they where sailing and relaxing. There were times when the Tender had to wait for us to turn a mark so that they could pick up the buoy. My advice, for what's it worth is; ENJOY YOURSELF, train your crew but be a easy captain to sail with. Some Downwind tips. In light air, set your Jib & Main wing on wing; Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Scotty Not down wind... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Scotty Not down wind... Well Duh! I didn't think he meant W-W close hauled! SBV |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make?
Not down wind... Well Duh! I didn't think he meant W-W close hauled! Jax could do it! DSK |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Doug,
If you Set a Spinn. there isn't a need to Wing out but in the Cruising Class you aren't allowed a Spinn. Scotty, W-W doesn't mean you have to sail Dead Downwind. If you have your sails set properly you can increase Downwind Speed by Broad reaching with your Jib drawing with the wind coming over the leech as the leading edge going Downwind. If you've never done it you've got a surprise waiting for you. Try it! |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Doug,
Ice Boats sail faster than the wind and they're apparent wind is always behind them when they are in a groove. They are always sailing downwind. The wind doesn't shift foreward it shift aft. This doesn't happen with a displacement hull but if you get the Displ. hull going you do get an increase in the Apparent Wind, which will exceed the speed of the true wind. If you don't have to go to far off course to build this higher apparent wind, you can get to the Leeward Mark quicker. Even the America's Cupper, with Spinn. steer off line and Gybe to the opposite Broad reach going downwind. Its faster. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Doug,
I said it wrong. The Apparent wind does swing forward. The Ice Boat never see a run when in the groove. Sorry |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Richard wrote:
It's a handicap race. I remember our skipper working hard to cross the finish less than 3-1/2 mins behind the guy in front. We were about 3 mins behind, so beat him. By that time, the other boat had already had their fun. You can see what I mean about one-design racing being a better learning venue, though... imagaine running a foot race against a guy 3 1/2 minutes ahead of you... you can't tell if you're gaining or losing ground; no feedback. Furthermore, sailing against different types of boats will not show you the best trim & pointing angles at which to sail your own boat. In a one-design class, when somebody is beating you, you copy him. In a handicap class, you might not be better off emulating another's sailing techniques. Difficult. But then that is not helpful advice here, sorry I had to vent a little. ..... I do have access to two different marinas with weekly classes at several levels, so a flyer or ad on their bulletin bords seems a good idea. That will be a good way to get people on the boat. One suggestion I have for practice sails- have some definite drills & goals, but also mix it up and have fun. Rotate positions on the boat. You'll learn a lot by standing back, giving somebody else the helm, and watching what happens either good or bad. Another thing that may be possible is to get a winning skipper to come for a few sails with you as an informal coach. I'm getting a feel for rigging and getting in a groove upwind Pointing versus footing? Shifting gears for lulls, waves, traffic? Depowering when it's gusty? Let me rephrase: On a beginner *Sailing 101* level, I've got the idea. But in this area, I'm nowhere near ready for the big time. Pointing means to go at a tighter angle into the wind; footing means to bear away a little and let the boat go faster (but at a wider angle). Somewhere between is the fastest course upwind. From a dead-in-water stop, obviously the boat will accelerate more on a reach than pointed up onto a tight close-hauled course. Intuitive! But it also reveals a good way to get upwind the fastest... accelerate the boat then slowly trim slightly tighter and point slightly higher while trying to lose no speed. When the boat slows a tiny bit, bear away a little and re-accelerate the boat, repeat the proces of 'squeezing' the boat upwind. It takes constant attention to helm and sail trim, which is the difference between racing sailing and daysailing... but it's also many boatlengths of distance at the windward mark. When you hit a lull in the wind, or some bigger waves, again- acclerate the boat then bring it to a higher pointing angle in tiny increments. Most beginning sailing classes teach to pull the sails in tight, cleat them, then point the boat upwind until they luff slightly, then bear away until they stop luffing. That will in fact get you upwind, but in a race you'll be looking at a lot of transoms. Constant easing & trimming also gives the crew something to do. but have no clue what I'm doing downwind. (If the strategy is anything but head for the downwind mark, I'm not sure what course(s) to steer and why.) Again, a complex subject. Basically you maximize VMG according to what options the apparent wind gives you. It's the opposite of sailing upwind (duh) in that you *want* to go into a header. You go up in the lulls, down in the gusts. When the is powered up just aim at the mark. And I've read this, but know that I don't "feel" it yet. Working on this. Have you heard "when in doubt, let it out?" Age-old rule of thumb for downwind sailing. A more advanced technique is to sail upwind the reverse of the way you sail downwind. Instead of looking for lifts, you follow headers. You bring the boat to a reach for acceleration, then try to get the boat aimed as much downwind as you can without losing that speed. Going upwind, when you hit a lull, you bear away. Going downwind, when you hit a lull, you head up.... in both cases you are looking for speed which you can then turn into VMG towards the next mark or bouy. A big difference in upwind vs downwind sailing is that this little game of zig-zag never stops when beating; for going downwind it gets easier the stronger the wind blows. When the boat can go hull speed DDW then you will be looking for waves to surf and thinking about reefing, not reaching up for better VMG. Again, thanks for your time and insights! You're welcome. The next best thing to sailing is talking about it. Ringmaster wrote: You read the rules. That's more than most people do before they show up the first time. Like Doug said you sound like an organized person. Remember it will probably take you an entire season to get the boat up to speed. Don't get frustrated. Don't motor back to the dock ****ed off. Have fun. WINNING IS FUN, DAMMIT! But you're right, enjoy the whole experience. There is absolutely nothing that is half so much worth doing as piddling around racing sailboats. BTW Richard, you could do well to get Ringmater's advice on finding & training a crew. C'mon Loco helo the guy out! DSK |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Scotty" wrote in message
. .. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Scotty Not down wind... Well Duh! I didn't think he meant W-W close hauled! SBV You didn't? -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
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Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ... Doug, Ice Boats sail faster than the wind and they're apparent wind is always behind them when they are in a groove. They are always sailing downwind. The wind doesn't shift foreward it shift aft. This doesn't happen with a displacement hull but if you get the Displ. hull going you do get an increase in the Apparent Wind, which will exceed the speed of the true wind. If you don't have to go to far off course to build this higher apparent wind, you can get to the Leeward Mark quicker. Even the America's Cupper, with Spinn. steer off line and Gybe to the opposite Broad reach going downwind. Its faster. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaha hahahahhahahahahahahahah! What a retard. Claims to have sailed 67 years and never managed to realize what apparent wind is. No wonder a pilothouse motor sailer was the boat of choice. Only in Thom's world is the wind always coming from behind. In other words - La la land! Wilbur Hubbard JML Sigs |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
DID NOT write this
crap: even the America's Cup guys are happy to just aim the boat straight downwind.... never seen one go wing-and-wing but they probably would Bloody Horvath wrote: Never! They use spinnakers. What I wrote- "In 30 knot winds, even the America's Cup guys are happy to just aim the boat straight downwind.... never seen one go wing-and-wing but they probably would" In fact, among the Louis Vuitton series in Auckland, they had a few races with gusts in the upper 20.... the leaders of those races were happy to take their chutes down as early as they could without blowing their lead. It wouldn't surprise me if there had been some wing-and- wing-ing during that action. It would probably surprise Horvath though.... he apparently can't read but maybe he can watch TV. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Bloody Horvath" wrote in message ... I also know what "chicken ****" is. I've been in races where I was blowing so bad that people died laughing. no doubt. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
Sorry I made a wrong statement and let Neal get he personal ya-ya in,
Good Luck and have fun. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
wrote in message ups.com... Isn't W-W the slowest sail set one can make? Not down wind... Well Duh! I didn't think he meant W-W close hauled! Jax could do it! DSK Whatever happened to JAX? |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"jlrogers" wrote in message Whatever happened to JAX? he sailed, under bare poles, to the furthest downwind port and bought a cheap yacht, where he is currently writing his 7th definitive book. SBV. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"Scotty" wrote in message . .. "jlrogers" wrote in message Whatever happened to JAX? he sailed, under bare poles, to the furthest downwind port and bought a cheap yacht, where he is currently writing his 7th definitive book. SBV. Does he have the same publisher as Bobsprit? |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
"jlrogers" wrote in message et... "Scotty" wrote in message . .. "jlrogers" wrote in message Whatever happened to JAX? he sailed, under bare poles, to the furthest downwind port and bought a cheap yacht, where he is currently writing his 7th definitive book. SBV. Does he have the same publisher as Bobsprit? yes, Phantom Books. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
BTW Richard, you could do well to get Ringmater's advice on
finding & training a crew. C'mon Loco helo the guy out! Most of my crew have been on the boat for around 8 years. When starting out I went through a few friends and neighbors. Lesson: Don't talk anyone into racing. Find people who are interested. When you get friends and neighbors who are not into it they will be the ones who you will have to call every week to see if they are going to sail or if they will be going to the mall with their wife. My philosophy on crewing on a boat is that it is the same as being on a softball team or a bowling league. You show up. Some people seem to think that because it's sailing they don't always have to show and they don't bother to call. I tell my crew it's not a job but if you can't make it please call on Monday not Tuesday night or Wednesday afternoon. You can look for people who are interested on local club websites. Sometimes they have a forum where interested people leave their contact information. Even after you have a full crew you should contact new people every year to see if they would like to sub for regulars who can't make it from time to time. Benifits of doing this are you have a group of subs and secondly you get to meet people before you commit. How to keep crew: Only yell when someone is about to do something stupid and break something. Also, tell every new crewmember that you expect them to treat the boat as if it were there own. Don't throw stuff around, don't break stuff and they are expected to "clean up" the boat after the race. After you have been racing awhile your good crewmates will know other people who are interested when you need someone to fill in or replace someone who is leaving. Keep it fun. Never sail back to the dock in a bad mood because you didn't do well. |
Requesting advice on my sailboat racing plan
I forgot to mention. My motto has always been "There are no cash
prizes" In other words missing out on a trophy or plaque ain't worth getting ****ed off about. On Ringmaster we like to win but we try to keep it casual. Seems to work. Between 2 boats I have 32 plaques on the wall plus a few other little cups etc. |
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