On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:19:56 +0700, wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:42:06 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:49:24 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they
will sink if they go aglub.

They will unless full of low density water resistant cargo. The doors
on the boxes are not watertight. Electronics, with all that foam, just
won't sink. CRT's are bouyant. So is wood. Depends entirely on the
cargo. With the right cargo a boxboat is basically unsinkable.
Read the empty weight stenciled on one that I spotted on I-80.
Something over 8000 lbs. and they would weigh over 40 tons if full of
water. That is way too heavy for a boxboat, some of those carry 8 000
containers. Those ships will not carry 300 000 tons. that is
ridiculous, so the boxes have to weigh much less. They mostly start
out very bouyant, but they are not watertight, like I said .Even so
they can't be guaranteed to sink. They will take quite a while to,
however. even if they do, eventually. A container washed off a ship
and spilled a cargo of bathtub ducks. Scientists collected data on
currents for years. Had it not come open, it would not have sunk until
it dissolved into rust.
There are the floating oil drums as well.

Casady

Actually container ships are rated in 20 ft equivalent containers,

The figure I gave was for a twenty foot box. Seemed a lot, so I
refigured and got the same forty tons. I used ' The Calculator That
Takes No Prisoners,' the HP 48. The Chinese are building some 90 000
ton boxboats. To big for the Canal.

Casady

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:37:21 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:19:56 +0700, wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:42:06 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:49:24 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

It is my considered opinion that all containers should be made so that they
will sink if they go aglub.

They will unless full of low density water resistant cargo. The doors
on the boxes are not watertight. Electronics, with all that foam, just
won't sink. CRT's are bouyant. So is wood. Depends entirely on the
cargo. With the right cargo a boxboat is basically unsinkable.
Read the empty weight stenciled on one that I spotted on I-80.
Something over 8000 lbs. and they would weigh over 40 tons if full of
water. That is way too heavy for a boxboat, some of those carry 8 000
containers. Those ships will not carry 300 000 tons. that is
ridiculous, so the boxes have to weigh much less. They mostly start
out very bouyant, but they are not watertight, like I said .Even so
they can't be guaranteed to sink. They will take quite a while to,
however. even if they do, eventually. A container washed off a ship
and spilled a cargo of bathtub ducks. Scientists collected data on
currents for years. Had it not come open, it would not have sunk until
it dissolved into rust.
There are the floating oil drums as well.

Casady

Actually container ships are rated in 20 ft equivalent containers,

The figure I gave was for a twenty foot box. Seemed a lot, so I
refigured and got the same forty tons. I used ' The Calculator That
Takes No Prisoners,' the HP 48. The Chinese are building some 90 000
ton boxboats. To big for the Canal.

Casady


If I'm not mistaken the maximum total weight of a 20 ft. container is
35,000 lbs., and a 40 ft. container 45,000 lbs. I believe that the
Emma Maersk is considered the largest container carrier in the world
with a capacity of at least 11,000 TUE's.. Length 396 M, Breadth 56 M,
Draft 30 M. No mention of displacement. 110,000 BHP, a cruising speed
of 27K and a crew of 13.

Maresk has the reputation of under stating the capacity of their ships
and outside estimates of capacity are in the range of 14,000 TEU's
giving a possible cargo capacity of 245,000 tons.




Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

In rec.boats.cruising wrote:

:If I'm not mistaken the maximum total weight of a 20 ft. container is
:35,000 lbs., and a 40 ft. container 45,000 lbs. I believe that the

Gross weight for a 20' ISO 1C container is 52900 lbs, 24,000 Kg. For
a 40' 1A container gross weight is 67200 lbs, 30480 Kg. Typical tare
weights are about 5000 lbs, and 8000 lbs respectively, though there's
a lot of variation. I think Casady was talking about the mass of
water they'd hold, which determines whether they'll sink or not.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:10:59 +0700, wrote:

Actually container ships are rated in 20 ft equivalent containers,

The figure I gave was for a twenty foot box. Seemed a lot, so I
refigured and got the same forty tons. I used ' The Calculator That
Takes No Prisoners,' the HP 48. The Chinese are building some 90 000
ton boxboats. To big for the Canal.

The 8000 pounds figure was empty weight, and the 40 ton figure was the
displacement, the weight, at 63 pounds/cubic foot, of a chunk of water
8x8x20 feet. At 35 000 lbs a 20 would float with half of it out of the
water.
The original question was if the could they be made to sink and I
pointed that if they started out that heavy , the all up weight comes
to a ridiculous total for the ships. As it is, a container of
machinery will slowly sink, but foam packing may keep a box,or enough
of them, the boxboat itself, afloat until it lots of rusting has
occured.

If I'm not mistaken the maximum total weight of a 20 ft. container is
35,000 lbs., and a 40 ft. container 45,000 lbs.

Twice as big as a 20 would translate to 70 000 pounds for a 40, not
35k. 45 000 does sound reasonable for something light enough to be
legal on the roads, however.

I believe that the
Emma Maersk is considered the largest container carrier in the world
with a capacity of at least 11,000 TUE's.. Length 396 M, Breadth 56 M,
Draft 30 M. No mention of displacement. 110,000 BHP, a cruising speed
of 27K and a crew of 13.

Crew of 13? One watch officer, one on the wheel, and one lookout times
three shifts. Plus a cook, the skipper, and the chief engineer. Twelve
right there. The seven masted schooner Thomas Lawson, had steam
winches to work the sails, and a crew of 18, and I believe Lakers
mostly have a crew of 29.

Maresk has the reputation of under stating the capacity of their ships
and outside estimates of capacity are in the range of 14,000 TEU's
giving a possible cargo capacity of 245,000 tons.

Go to www.pancanal.com to watch ships go through the locks in the
Panama Canal. Mostly boxboats.

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
The original question was if the could they be made to sink and I
pointed that if they started out that heavy , the all up weight comes
to a ridiculous total for the ships. As it is, a container of
machinery will slowly sink, but foam packing may keep a box,or enough
of them, the boxboat itself, afloat until it lots of rusting has
occured.


How about passing international law that all shipping containers must be
loaded, either with cargo, mixed cargo or cargo and ballast, so as to make
them negatively buoyant? Might complicate loading a bit, but would increase
safety at sea immensely.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:32:14 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:10:59 +0700, wrote:

Actually container ships are rated in 20 ft equivalent containers,

The figure I gave was for a twenty foot box. Seemed a lot, so I
refigured and got the same forty tons. I used ' The Calculator That
Takes No Prisoners,' the HP 48. The Chinese are building some 90 000
ton boxboats. To big for the Canal.

The 8000 pounds figure was empty weight, and the 40 ton figure was the
displacement, the weight, at 63 pounds/cubic foot, of a chunk of water
8x8x20 feet. At 35 000 lbs a 20 would float with half of it out of the
water.
The original question was if the could they be made to sink and I
pointed that if they started out that heavy , the all up weight comes
to a ridiculous total for the ships. As it is, a container of
machinery will slowly sink, but foam packing may keep a box,or enough
of them, the boxboat itself, afloat until it lots of rusting has
occured.

Yes, I did sort of miss the point there a bit.

According to the Export911.com website the standard dimensions of a 20
ft, container are 19.875 X 8 X 8.5 or 9.5 with the 8.5 dimension
referred to as a "Standard Container".
The standard Tare weight is 1,800 - 2,400 Kg.(3, 968 - 5,291 Lbs.)

So, using your weight of water a 20 TUE would displace 85,145 lbs less
the tare weight of, say 4639lbs and would require need to be nearly
full of water to sink. Empty.

As "stuff" seems to be mostly packed with plenty of styrofoam packing
it is likely that most containers are floating for a substantial
length of time after they are lost.

If I'm not mistaken the maximum total weight of a 20 ft. container is
35,000 lbs., and a 40 ft. container 45,000 lbs.

The standard for international shipments is 24,000 Kg ( 52.,900 lbs)
and 30,480 Kg. (67,200 Lbs) Can't remember where I got the lower
numbers I initially quoted.

Twice as big as a 20 would translate to 70 000 pounds for a 40, not
35k. 45 000 does sound reasonable for something light enough to be
legal on the roads, however.

I believe that the
Emma Maersk is considered the largest container carrier in the world
with a capacity of at least 11,000 TUE's.. Length 396 M, Breadth 56 M,
Draft 30 M. No mention of displacement. 110,000 BHP, a cruising speed
of 27K and a crew of 13.

Crew of 13? One watch officer, one on the wheel, and one lookout times
three shifts. Plus a cook, the skipper, and the chief engineer. Twelve
right there. The seven masted schooner Thomas Lawson, had steam
winches to work the sails, and a crew of 18, and I believe Lakers
mostly have a crew of 29.

The engine room crew work a standard 8 hour day with annunciators in
the engineer's quarters. Direct engine control from the bridge. At
night, two people on watch., maximum. The "autopilot and the chart
plotter" steer the boat and the O.O.D. writes up reports and MAYBE
there is a man on watch. Say, Captain, two watch keepers X three
shifts, Cook, Two deck hands and a three man engineering crew......

Maresk has the reputation of under stating the capacity of their ships
and outside estimates of capacity are in the range of 14,000 TEU's
giving a possible cargo capacity of 245,000 tons.

Go to www.pancanal.com to watch ships go through the locks in the
Panama Canal. Mostly boxboats.

The world's freight travels by container. Try and get old fashioned
"deck cargo" any more. We were trying to ship a 28 ft. sloop back to
the west coast and "luckily" there was a conventional cargo boat that
ran back and forth between two ports on the east coast and Phuket,
Thailand carrying raw rubber. Otherwise the boat would have to have
been shipped on a container carrier and billed at the cost of the
number of containers displaced by the boat. Plus the cradle would have
to have standard container hold downs and lifting eyes.

It ended up as a "no sale" as we couldn't get it back to the U.S. at a
cost much less then the selling price.

..



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote in news:qaupc3h03p9djjkjr2fidcn3tmfhs02em2@
4ax.com:



Crew of 13? One watch officer, one on the wheel, and one lookout times
three shifts. Plus a cook, the skipper, and the chief engineer. Twelve
right there. The seven masted schooner Thomas Lawson, had steam
winches to work the sails, and a crew of 18, and I believe Lakers
mostly have a crew of 29.

The engine room crew work a standard 8 hour day with annunciators in
the engineer's quarters. Direct engine control from the bridge. At
night, two people on watch., maximum. The "autopilot and the chart
plotter" steer the boat and the O.O.D. writes up reports and MAYBE
there is a man on watch. Say, Captain, two watch keepers X three
shifts, Cook, Two deck hands and a three man engineering crew......


Where you folks get your versions of ship's crew is beyond me.
No such thing as an OOD on Merchant ships. Engineers have alarms in rooms
for duty engineer during night. Auto pilot normally steering but only few
have GPS and waypoints inputed to make course changes. Master does not
spend his day on bridge.



Maresk has the reputation of under stating the capacity of their ships
and outside estimates of capacity are in the range of 14,000 TEU's
giving a possible cargo capacity of 245,000 tons.

Go to www.pancanal.com to watch ships go through the locks in the
Panama Canal. Mostly boxboats.

The world's freight travels by container. Try and get old fashioned
"deck cargo" any more. We were trying to ship a 28 ft. sloop back to
the west coast and "luckily" there was a conventional cargo boat that
ran back and forth between two ports on the east coast and Phuket,
Thailand carrying raw rubber. Otherwise the boat would have to have
been shipped on a container carrier and billed at the cost of the
number of containers displaced by the boat. Plus the cradle would have
to have standard container hold downs and lifting eyes.

It ended up as a "no sale" as we couldn't get it back to the U.S. at a
cost much less then the selling price.

Plenty of "breakbulk" still running.... alternate method to ship yachts
is on an "carcarrier"

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:05:01 -0000, otnmbrd
wrote:

wrote in news:qaupc3h03p9djjkjr2fidcn3tmfhs02em2@
4ax.com:



Crew of 13? One watch officer, one on the wheel, and one lookout times
three shifts. Plus a cook, the skipper, and the chief engineer. Twelve
right there. The seven masted schooner Thomas Lawson, had steam
winches to work the sails, and a crew of 18, and I believe Lakers
mostly have a crew of 29.

The engine room crew work a standard 8 hour day with annunciators in
the engineer's quarters. Direct engine control from the bridge. At
night, two people on watch., maximum. The "autopilot and the chart
plotter" steer the boat and the O.O.D. writes up reports and MAYBE
there is a man on watch. Say, Captain, two watch keepers X three
shifts, Cook, Two deck hands and a three man engineering crew......


Where you folks get your versions of ship's crew is beyond me.
No such thing as an OOD on Merchant ships. Engineers have alarms in rooms
for duty engineer during night. Auto pilot normally steering but only few
have GPS and waypoints inputed to make course changes. Master does not
spend his day on bridge.

Basically you are repeating what I said - explaining how/why the
Maresk boat operated with a crew of 13 people. Annunciators in the
engineers quarters, autopilot steering. I did use the term "chart
plotter" but you will, note the inverted commas" I have no idea how
the bridge crew refer to their electronic navigation system but I'm
certainly not naive enough to think that these ships are navigated by
sextant.


Maresk has the reputation of under stating the capacity of their ships
and outside estimates of capacity are in the range of 14,000 TEU's
giving a possible cargo capacity of 245,000 tons.

Go to www.pancanal.com to watch ships go through the locks in the
Panama Canal. Mostly boxboats.

The world's freight travels by container. Try and get old fashioned
"deck cargo" any more. We were trying to ship a 28 ft. sloop back to
the west coast and "luckily" there was a conventional cargo boat that
ran back and forth between two ports on the east coast and Phuket,
Thailand carrying raw rubber. Otherwise the boat would have to have
been shipped on a container carrier and billed at the cost of the
number of containers displaced by the boat. Plus the cradle would have
to have standard container hold downs and lifting eyes.

It ended up as a "no sale" as we couldn't get it back to the U.S. at a
cost much less then the selling price.

Plenty of "breakbulk" still running.... alternate method to ship yachts
is on an "carcarrier"


Sure, and how many car carriers do you think are running between South
Thailand and the West Coast of the US? The ones that run from around
Bangkok are all under contract to Toyota or one of the other Japanese
companies and they won't talk to you. Their schedules are coordinated
with the factory and the sales forces and they have spare room.

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:05:01 -0000, otnmbrd
wrote:

wrote in news:qaupc3h03p9djjkjr2fidcn3tmfhs02em2@
4ax.com:

Much snipped
cost much less then the selling price.

Plenty of "breakbulk" still running.... alternate method to ship yachts
is on an "carcarrier"


Sure, and how many car carriers do you think are running between South
Thailand and the West Coast of the US? The ones that run from around
Bangkok are all under contract to Toyota or one of the other Japanese
companies and they won't talk to you. Their schedules are coordinated
with the factory and the sales forces and they have spare room.
The line should have read
with the factory and the sales forces and they have no spare room.
Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:05:01 -0000, otnmbrd
wrote:

wrote in news:qaupc3h03p9djjkjr2fidcn3tmfhs02em2@
4ax.com:


Where you folks get your versions of ship's crew is beyond me.

In my case, pure guesswork. I can see getting by without the lookout
and/or the helmsman. The Captain is stuck with all the paperwork.
And that has to be damn near full time? Or is it? Could be a lot less
of that than there used to be, if it is now mostly done on shore.

So, you got in your sneer, now tell us the true facts.

Plenty of "breakbulk" still running...

You see them on the webcam at the canal.

Casady