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What would you do?
Boat is overpowered in a gust:
http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
What would you do?
wrote in message
oups.com... Boat is overpowered in a gust: http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Fresh Breezes- Doug King Given the boom can no longer be eased, seems to me the only two things you could do would be to attempt to head up or ease the main halyard. The former would be difficult, given that you'd probably have to move to the low side to get the tiller in the right spot, thus the boat would temporarily heel even more. Dropping the halyard might not be possible very quickly. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
wrote:
Boat is overpowered in a gust: http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Do the opposite of what seems obvious, head down, get under the main, jybe. Cheers Marty |
What would you do?
As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from
most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Martin Baxter wrote: Do the opposite of what seems obvious, head down, get under the main, jybe. Aw, you must have cheated. An asymmetric spinnaker on the end of a long fixed pole or sprit will exert a lot of leverage to make the boat head downwind, even when totally luffing or flogging. Therefore heading up, as becomes reflex for people driving fast monohulls, doesn't work. One thing I have not tried is to let go the pole extending line, letting the sprit retract and taking away the leverage. I suspect the pole might not draw back easily under the circumstances but since it is a common way to capsize, finding ways to get out of that situation. I'd like to try an articulating bowsprit, when in this situation you could dump the guy and let it fold back. As a big plus, a-sails don't make the boat broach and actually help steer downwind. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
What would you do?
Boat is overpowered in a gust:
http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? "Capt. JG" wrote: Given the boom can no longer be eased, seems to me the only two things you could do would be to attempt to head up Nope Trying to head up will lay the boat on it's side, especially once the foils begin to stall. In the pic, the rudder is mostly out of the water too. .... or ease the main halyard. IMHO the sail's not going to come down fast enough to get out of the situation. They're a few seconds from capsizing and the crew has to stay hiked out. I'd like to try it if the water was warm. Boom vang! Releasing the vang, which should be on a split control to either gun'l and easily accessible when hiked out, will let the boom rise and accomplish two things. The boom won't be digging in as hard and the upper sections of the mainsail will open up & luff freely. The problem with easing the vang is that if the boat is acting squirrely and the skipper yanks the boat downwind as soon as she'll respond, the upper part of the main is now uncontrolled and will try to death-roll the boat. The skipper has to stay calm, put the boat onto an easy reach, and tighten the vang again as well as encourage the crew to get the spinnaker under control. One problem I've had with this type of situation is that after one of these incidents, the crew will sometimes be spooked and regard the spinnaker sheets as though they were poisonous snakes. An interesting psychological problem as well as a boat-handling issue. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
What would you do?
In article , Martin Baxter wrote:
wrote: Boat is overpowered in a gust: http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Do the opposite of what seems obvious, head down, get under the main, jybe. Not sure if this would work... looks like the boat is about to capsize... putting more pressure on the main would make it worse... might pitchpole... -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
In article om,
wrote: Martin Baxter wrote: Do the opposite of what seems obvious, head down, get under the main, jybe. Aw, you must have cheated. An asymmetric spinnaker on the end of a long fixed pole or sprit will exert a lot of leverage to make the boat head downwind, even when totally luffing or flogging. Therefore heading up, as becomes reflex for people driving fast monohulls, doesn't work. One thing I have not tried is to let go the pole extending line, letting the sprit retract and taking away the leverage. I suspect the pole might not draw back easily under the circumstances but since it is a common way to capsize, finding ways to get out of that situation. I'd like to try an articulating bowsprit, when in this situation you could dump the guy and let it fold back. As a big plus, a-sails don't make the boat broach and actually help steer downwind. Interesting! -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
Not sure if this would work... looks like the boat is about to capsize... putting more pressure on the main would make it worse... might pitchpole... That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. Cheers Marty |
What would you do?
In article , Martin Baxter wrote:
Jonathan Ganz wrote: Not sure if this would work... looks like the boat is about to capsize... putting more pressure on the main would make it worse... might pitchpole... That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
Capt. JG wrote:
Not sure if this would work... looks like the boat is about to capsize... putting more pressure on the main would make it worse... might pitchpole... Not so likely to pitchpole when going slow, unless there's really big waves. Pitchpoling is more of a hazard of going 'way fast, when the bow digs into a wave. Martin Baxter wrote: That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. Capt. JG wrote: In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. New technology... wetsuits! Some crude people call them "Dinghy Sailors Depends." Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
What would you do?
In article .com,
wrote: Not so likely to pitchpole when going slow, unless there's really big waves. Pitchpoling is more of a hazard of going 'way fast, when the bow digs into a wave. True, but it looks like there's enough to do it to it. In a sense, you'd be going too fast if you tried to head down... at least that's how it looks to me. Martin Baxter wrote: That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. Well, you said they only have a few seconds... I'd try to head up, even if it meant falling on the tiller to get that way. I mean what are the real alternatives? You have to dump the wind somehow or you're doomed for sure. Capt. JG wrote: In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. New technology... wetsuits! Some crude people call them "Dinghy Sailors Depends." Heh... sorry, I don't want to be in water in which I'd want a wetsuit. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to
do, but reaching them might be impossible. Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. I'd probably be preparing to slip a leg over the side to stay dry. * Jonathan Ganz wrote, On 3/7/2007 7:01 PM: In article .com, wrote: Not so likely to pitchpole when going slow, unless there's really big waves. Pitchpoling is more of a hazard of going 'way fast, when the bow digs into a wave. True, but it looks like there's enough to do it to it. In a sense, you'd be going too fast if you tried to head down... at least that's how it looks to me. Martin Baxter wrote: That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. Well, you said they only have a few seconds... I'd try to head up, even if it meant falling on the tiller to get that way. I mean what are the real alternatives? You have to dump the wind somehow or you're doomed for sure. Capt. JG wrote: In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. New technology... wetsuits! Some crude people call them "Dinghy Sailors Depends." Heh... sorry, I don't want to be in water in which I'd want a wetsuit. |
What would you do?
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to do, but reaching them might be impossible. Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. I'd probably be preparing to slip a leg over the side to stay dry. * Jonathan Ganz wrote, On 3/7/2007 7:01 PM: In article .com, wrote: Not so likely to pitchpole when going slow, unless there's really big waves. Pitchpoling is more of a hazard of going 'way fast, when the bow digs into a wave. True, but it looks like there's enough to do it to it. In a sense, you'd be going too fast if you tried to head down... at least that's how it looks to me. Martin Baxter wrote: That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. Well, you said they only have a few seconds... I'd try to head up, even if it meant falling on the tiller to get that way. I mean what are the real alternatives? You have to dump the wind somehow or you're doomed for sure. Capt. JG wrote: In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. New technology... wetsuits! Some crude people call them "Dinghy Sailors Depends." Heh... sorry, I don't want to be in water in which I'd want a wetsuit. All this stupid talk about "what would you do if. . . " Then a picture of an out-of-control sailboat. Nobody even thought of the sensible questions which would have been, "What should have been done to avoid this unfortunate situation?" Instead, what do we get? A prolonged discussion from a couple or three armchair sailors about what to do when it's already too late. Don't even think about closing the barn door. Just keep chasing those cows forever. Man, are you people ever pathetic in your attitude and in your idea of sailing. Just plain disgusting as a matter of fact. Wilbur Hubbard |
What would you do?
In article ,
Jeff wrote: Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to do, but reaching them might be impossible. Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. Interesting... I thought that might be a possibility also, but doubted it could be done in seconds... raising the centerboard that is. I was thinking that the forward crew might be able to pop up on the cuddy and pop the halyard. At least the mast is something you can hold onto as you go over. g I'd probably be preparing to slip a leg over the side to stay dry. There are some pics of people doing just that on much larger boats. It was in Latitude 38 a couple of years ago. You could see the keel root, as the boats skidded downwind. g -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
What would you do?
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
All this stupid talk about "what would you do if. . . " Then a picture of an out-of-control sailboat. Nobody even thought of the sensible questions which would have been, "What should have been done to avoid this unfortunate situation?" Good point. You've avoided that situation very handily, haven't you? OTOH you have also missed the joys & thrills of sailing high performance racing craft. ... Instead, what do we get? A prolonged discussion from a couple or three armchair sailors about what to do when it's already too late. If you can do something, it's not "too late" is it? And if racing a boat of the same type & class as in the picture for 8 years makes me an "armchair sailor" then I guess that makes you a "total landlubber." .... Man, are you people ever pathetic in your attitude and in your idea of sailing. Just plain disgusting as a matter of fact. So why are you hanging around? Fresh Breezes (to them wot want 'em)- Doug King |
What would you do?
Jeff wrote:
Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to do, but reaching them might be impossible. I'm guessing that the crew has already dropped the spin sheet (so as to hang on with both hands). The vang is on a split control right next to the skipper's thigh. Either skipper or crew can reach it easily. ... Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. Agreed. ... The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. Nah, one peculiarity of these boats.. and the skiffs AFAIK... is that they leave the board down. The A-sail likes a hot reach and if you pull the board up, the boat just slides sideways and can't build any apparent wind. The problem was caused by an unexpected gust and/or the skipper heading up when he should have headed down. I've been caught in this situation myself, trying to hold onto a barely-tenable tight reach so as to make it around a gybe mark. Interesting... I thought that might be a possibility also, but doubted it could be done in seconds... raising the centerboard that is. I was thinking that the forward crew might be able to pop up on the cuddy and pop the halyard. At least the mast is something you can hold onto as you go over. g Yeah it's a bummer to bang your shins on the cockpit once the boat's on her side ;) DSK |
What would you do?
* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 3/7/2007 7:27 PM:
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to do, but reaching them might be impossible. Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. I'd probably be preparing to slip a leg over the side to stay dry. All this stupid talk about "what would you do if. . . " Then a picture of an out-of-control sailboat. Nobody even thought of the sensible questions which would have been, "What should have been done to avoid this unfortunate situation?" Actually, I said specifically that I thought the problems was caused by leaving the board down. Doug could tell us is this is appropriate for this class, but in all of the racing dinks I've sailed, if the chute was deployed, the board was partway up. Instead, what do we get? A prolonged discussion from a couple or three armchair sailors about what to do when it's already too late. Spoken by someone who obviously has never been in a boat that can do over 6.5 knots. I don't even think about closing the barn door. I just keep chasing those cows forever. The sheep too, but they run too fast. Man, am I ever pathetic in my attitude and in my idea of sailing. Just plain disgusting as a matter of fact. TMI Wilbur Hubbard |
What would you do?
wrote:
I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. I think you're right, unfortunately it may already be to late if the boom is submerged there may be enough resistance to hold the main tight long enough to go the rest of the way over. I'd be thinking about climbing over the gun'l and jumping on the center board. Cheers Marty ------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------- For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install, fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best! ---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ---- |
What would you do?
* Charlie Morgan wrote, On 3/8/2007 9:17 AM:
On 5 Mar 2007 16:39:01 -0800, wrote: Boat is overpowered in a gust: http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? Order Bobsprit to climb up to the high side. CWM If only hiking out more could help. By the time its over this far, you have almost no lever arm, so adding RB's weight would just drive the rail in further. |
What would you do?
Jeff wrote: Popping the vang??? (maybe, maybe not.) and the spinnaker sheet As I said..... are the only things left to do, Jim |
What would you do?
Why haven't anyone mentioned the kicking strap ?
Peter skrev: Boat is overpowered in a gust: http://i1.ebayimg.com/05/i/000/8f/19/843e_1.JPG Spinnaker flogging, boom dragging in the water and cannot be eased further. In the pic, the boat is still moving forward but very soon the foils will stall and she will be uncontrollable. The skipper has a few seconds to take action or they will capsize. What should he do? As a bonus question, what is different about the boat in the pic from most conventional sloops that might affect the skipper's range of successful options? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
What would you do?
Jeff skrev:
Popping the vang and the spinnaker sheet are the only things left to do, but reaching them might be impossible. Oddly, raising the centerboard might work, but the stress on it now would make that unlikely. The problem is probably caused by having the board all the way down while reaching. I'd probably be preparing to slip a leg over the side to stay dry. * Jonathan Ganz wrote, On 3/7/2007 7:01 PM: In article .com, wrote: Not so likely to pitchpole when going slow, unless there's really big waves. Pitchpoling is more of a hazard of going 'way fast, when the bow digs into a wave. True, but it looks like there's enough to do it to it. In a sense, you'd be going too fast if you tried to head down... at least that's how it looks to me. Martin Baxter wrote: That indeed, is a possibility, no guts, no glory. I think the boat in the picture has gone past the point where the skipper can point downwind and settle things down. But contrary to normal sailing reflex, with an A-sail on a sprit, putting the bow into the wind ain't gonna work. These guys could be trapped. Casting off the vang will take pressure off the upper part of the main, works with conventional sloops too... pretty much their last hope in the pic. Well, you said they only have a few seconds... I'd try to head up, even if it meant falling on the tiller to get that way. I mean what are the real alternatives? You have to dump the wind somehow or you're doomed for sure. Capt. JG wrote: In So. Cal., I wouldn't care so much... up here... too friggin cold to go in the drink. New technology... wetsuits! Some crude people call them "Dinghy Sailors Depends." Heh... sorry, I don't want to be in water in which I'd want a wetsuit. This sounds right to me . Sorry that I answered in an other tread saying: "why haven't any one mentioned the kicking strap ?" (Iasume thet kicking strap =vang , in this case9 Peter |
What would you do?
JimC wrote:
Popping the vang??? (maybe, maybe not.) and the spinnaker sheet As I said..... are the only things left to do, These things don't have cleats on the spinnaker sheet. And it looks like the crew has both hands on the gun'l. And you're right about the vang Peter S/Y Anicula wrote: Why haven't anyone mentioned the kicking strap ? Sorry, should have translated "boom vang" into English for you ;) I spent some time studying the angle of the boat and position of the rudder and what little you can see of the tiller... kinda looks to me as though the skipper was trying to bear away or at least not round up further. Of course, there's also a rocky shore fairly close under their lee so there isn't a whole lot of room to run off downwind and try to settle things down. I'm thinking it may have been a race and these guys got hit by a gust partway into the spinnaker takedown, zooming them past the leeward mark and into trouble. Capsizing would be less of a PITA than planing up onto somebody's lawn, especially when that involves bouncing over a rock seawall. Fresh Breezes- Doug King I spent some time looking closely at the |
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