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Bad design?
These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen |
Bad design?
Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling?
Ellen MacArthur wrote: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen |
Bad design?
"Jeff" wrote Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so it has more reserve buoyancy at the front. Cheers, Ellen |
Bad design?
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
"Jeff" wrote Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so it has more reserve buoyancy at the front. Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. |
Bad design?
"Jeff" wrote in message
. .. Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Ellen MacArthur wrote: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Reminds me of when I was sailing in college... the most fun you can have with your clothes on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Bad design?
Capt. JG wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message . .. Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Ellen MacArthur wrote: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Reminds me of when I was sailing in college... the most fun you can have with your clothes on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Only time I ever sailed a Hobi 16 we pitchpoled it in a thunderstorm that came up suddenly. The shrouds tore out of the hulls and the mast broke. |
Bad design?
Ellen MacArthur wrote:
These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Come on, you can do better than that. Are you still using water state to estimate windspeeds in confined waters? -- Flying Tadpole ---------------------------------- www.flyingtadpole.com |
Bad design?
wrote in message
ups.com... Capt. JG wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message . .. Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Ellen MacArthur wrote: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Reminds me of when I was sailing in college... the most fun you can have with your clothes on. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com Only time I ever sailed a Hobi 16 we pitchpoled it in a thunderstorm that came up suddenly. The shrouds tore out of the hulls and the mast broke. We sailed a larger hobi and a prindle. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Bad design?
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Ellen MacArthur wrote: "Jeff" wrote Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so it has more reserve buoyancy at the front. Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack. Max |
Bad design?
OzOne wrote in message ... On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:02:59 -0500, "Ellen MacArthur" scribbled thusly: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Nope, just exceptionally bad crew work. Bingo. Hit the nail on the head, Oz. Max |
Bad design?
"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net... "Jeff" wrote in message . .. Ellen MacArthur wrote: "Jeff" wrote Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so it has more reserve buoyancy at the front. Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack. Max Jeeez... when I was a kid we used to deliberately turtle the dinghies despite being told not to do it. They would be po'd, because we kept coming back with mud on the masthead. It was a nice mountain lake, and I think they were concerned we'd break the boats on the stumps on the lake bed. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Bad design?
Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Ellen MacArthur wrote: "Jeff" wrote Why do you say that? What's wrong with pitchpoling? Pitchpoling is dangerous. You could break your neck. Did you see some of those people flying off the hull? They were standing way back on the back and the bow still sunk into the water and it was end over end. I think they should re-design the hull so it has more reserve buoyancy at the front. Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack. First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as "high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy." 505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700 respectively, with about the same sail area. Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered "high performance" at the time (470's, 505's). On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would do gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How else to you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't flip a few times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie 16's, I never raced but had access to a one at a club and generally took out recreational sailors with no high performance or racing experience to give them a little thrill. The dock crew would always joke about warming up the crash boat. Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats. In fact, I can remember races when every boat went down! Of course, the better skippers flipped less often than novices, but during practices it was no big deal. (And college racers don't use chutes.) And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when it counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of times while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few sleeping bags and a pack under the bow and head off to the islands! Capsizing in this situation wold not have been a good idea. |
Bad design?
Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then
the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Maxprop wrote: Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I take issue with your taking issue. For one thing, none of the boats you mention are "high performance." The Snipe and the Lightning are designs from the 1930s for pete's sake! Scows and Hobie 16s are sort of performance boats but only from the standpoint of being compared to old kludgy boats.... scows were originated as a type in the 1890s and have not really made any greater strides than conventional boats since then... less so IMHO. Ensigns?!???!? Fun to sail but hardly "performance". And they do capsize, just try broaching one with a chute up in 20+ knot winds. For another thing, any time you are learning & practicing a new technique... such as windward heel on a Laser... then you are liable to blow it and capsize. The only way to avoid this is to never learn to power up the boat or try new techniques. If you never flipped learning to roll-gybe, then you have never learned to roll-gybe. ... I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Damn sure not in a Laser unless you're a fat old duffer. Heck I've flipped twice on the first leg in a Laser and still finished in the hunt. -signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye) |
Bad design?
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Maxprop wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack. First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as "high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy." You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example. :-) 505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700 respectively, with about the same sail area. You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire. Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered "high performance" at the time (470's, 505's). I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never capsized one, however. On the other hand, when not racing, we frequently pushed the limits in stronger wind and capsizes were common. On the windiest days we would do gybing drills, testing how many we could do in a mile run. How else to you learn how to jibe the chute in 25+ knots? If you can't flip a few times on a windy day, what fun is it? In the case of Hobie 16's, I never raced but had access to a one at a club and generally took out recreational sailors with no high performance or racing experience to give them a little thrill. The dock crew would always joke about warming up the crash boat. Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them extensively--just a few times at the local level. Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats. In fact, I can remember races when every boat went down! Of course, the better skippers flipped less often than novices, but during practices it was no big deal. (And college racers don't use chutes.) I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level. And one more thing - we well understood the meaning of staying up when it counted. The same boat that the owner and I flipped a number of times while playing was used of coastal cruising - stuff a few sleeping bags and a pack under the bow and head off to the islands! Capsizing in this situation wold not have been a good idea. No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance. Max |
Bad design?
Maxprop wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message Sailing close to the edge has its risks - if they weren't flipping then the boat was undersailed or not pushed hard enough. Anyone who has sailed high performance dinghies will flip on a regular basis. I'm not sure I ever survived a day on a Hobie 16 without flipping. And capsizing dinks like a 505 was just as common. Hmm. After a couple of decades of racing all sorts of dinghies--Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Lasers, Ensigns, MC Scows, and Hobie 16s--without ever flipping one, I take issue with your contention. I can recall only two capsizes in two-man boats and very few more in the Laser or MC (when racing solo), yet I won my share of hardware. A capsize or flip is essentially a DNF in most boats. Doesn't exactly make sense to be sailing so "close to the edge" if it means not finishing or finishing near the back of the pack. First of all, I was talking about "high performance" dinghies. I really don't think Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, Ensigns, or MC Scows count as "high performance." I've sailed all of them a number of times (except the scow) and while they're all fine boats, I think it's more than a stretch to call a Alberg designed keel boat a "high performance dinghy." You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example. :-) Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me. I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for strong current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge. Our return was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots, until the owner realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and had a long slog back upwind! But we didn't capsize. 505's weigh 280 pounds, the thistle and lightning weigh in at 515 and 700 respectively, with about the same sail area. You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire. As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never seen a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was a lightweight. Secondly, I'll agree that capsizing in a race is not a good thing. In fact, I'm not sure I ever did it, but I moved up to keel boats pretty soon after my college days so I didn't spend much time in what was considered "high performance" at the time (470's, 505's). I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never capsized one, however. Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge. Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them extensively--just a few times at the local level. Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I allowed too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole! Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's) and had never capsized. Also - I worked and volunteered in collegiate sailing for a dozen years or so, and I can say equivocally that capsizes were common in certain boats. .... I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level. Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns, 420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies? ... Capsizing in this situation wold not have been a good idea. No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance. Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all hang out. |
Bad design?
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Maxprop wrote: You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example. :-) Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me. I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse. I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole and back. It was a first for me in Buzzard's Bay, a first for strong current ("why is that buoy sideways?"), the first draw bridge. Our return was a glorious spinnaker run, 12 miles in 20+ knots, until the owner realized we had overshot our home port by 4 miles and had a long slog back upwind! But we didn't capsize. Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for a child. And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio in anything under a gale and monster waves. You did, however, refer to a Hobie 16, as did I. And while that boat can bury a hull rather easily, it really isn't that hard to keep the boat upright with a little alacrity from the skipper and the guy on the wire. As I mentioned, most of my Hobie sailing was with crews who had never seen a trapeze before. I also single handed some, but back then I was a lightweight. I love to singlehand Hobie 16s from the wire in about 10kts. It's fun and fast. I've sailed 470s extensively, but never raced them. Too much spaghetti in the cockpit for my tastes, but they are fun and do plane easily. I've never capsized one, however. Then you never sailed one in extreme conditions, close to the edge. No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out. Gybing is best practiced in a Finn in 15kts. or better. Centerboard *must* be up, and it's a challenge to keep the boom out of the water. But I've never capsized one of those either, although I haven't raced them extensively--just a few times at the local level. Again, if you never flipped a Finn, you never sailed in extreme conditions. Actually, my first capsize may have been in a Finn - it wasn't even very windy but the boat was leaky (it was US-2) and I allowed too much water to slosh forward triggering a pitchpole! No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return. Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's) and had never capsized. I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance. Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake, with a Lightning not far behind. And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470. I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level. Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns, 420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies? I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic. I was simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is an FJ, by the way. No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance. Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all hang out. Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their wake as well. You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water. Max |
Bad design?
Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns,
420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies? Maxprop wrote: I didn't. I never said they were-- Let's review. The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance dinghies, occasional capsizing is part of the process. You "took issue" with that, and listed a lot of dinghies that you'd sailed for years without a single capsize as though holding yourself up as an example. Now you claim that the dinghies you listed were not intended to represent "high performance" classes.... which of course leaves the question, WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies? BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of the pack. And I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their wake as well. Excuse me while I go clean the coffee off my keyboard. You're a stitch, Max. Apparently clueless, but good for a million laughs. Thanks! -signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye) (who also has sailed rings around Flying Scots in a 470 in all kinds of conditions) |
Bad design?
wrote in message Let's review. The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance dinghies, occasional capsizing is part of the process. You "took issue" with that, and listed a lot of dinghies that you'd sailed for years without a single capsize as though holding yourself up as an example. Now you claim that the dinghies you listed were not intended to represent "high performance" classes.... which of course leaves the question, WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies? Really just peferring to irritate bloviating fools like yourself. Without Bubbles around this NG has become interminably boring. You aren't helping much, but you are making an effort, if paltry. BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of the pack. The Laser isn't a good example, but perhaps it has more to do with the ability to keep the boat upright by quick reactions and athletic ability. I've capsized a Laser twice while racing--once in a drifter, having gotten slap-happy and sloppy in the heat and sun and roll-tacking repeatedly just for something to do. The other time was after I got cut off by another boat with no rights at the mark. I chose to capsize rather than collide with another competitor--my boat was brand new. In both cases I was back aboard and sailing within 30 seconds. My reference to DNF was directed more toward Lightnings and Thistles. They can be self-rescued, but you'll be trailing the pack unless you were far ahead to begin with. A Thistle takes about 15 minutes to self-bail with two Elvstrom Supermax bailers. Until then you'll be sailing an 800-to-1200 lb. Thistle. And I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their wake as well. Excuse me while I go clean the coffee off my keyboard. You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air. We were clocked at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon. I have yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed, but then I have no time at all racing them. I do have lots of time sailing them, especially on the wire as crew, but we never came close to 10kts. boat speed. You're a stitch, Max. Apparently clueless, but good for a million laughs. Thanks! You're most welcome. Sadly you aren't good for even a half-hearted chuckle. -signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye) (who also has sailed rings around Flying Scots in a 470 in all kinds of conditions) Well, that's *slightly* funny, if inaccurate. If you'd actually sailed rings around Flying Scots in "all kinds of conditions," the conditions where you sail are, um, limited. Max |
Bad design?
The statement was made that when learning to sail high performance
...WTF did you type out that list in the first place? Just wasting bandwidth on complete irrelevancies? Maxprop wrote: Really just peferring to irritate bloviating fools like yourself. Do tell. You're the one stuck in an unsupportable position, which you got yourself into... I suggest you start accusing other people of ad-hominem attacks.... BTW if you've never capsized in a particular boat, then the odds are that the skill of capsize recovery is also lacking... which explains why you think capsizing a Laser is guaranteed to put you at the back of the pack. The Laser isn't a good example, but perhaps it has more to do with the ability to keep the boat upright by quick reactions and athletic ability. Which also go a long way towards being able to pull the boat upright & get back in the sadlle quickly, too. I've capsized a Laser twice while racing--once in a drifter, having gotten slap-happy and sloppy in the heat and sun and roll-tacking repeatedly just for something to do. The other time was after I got cut off by another boat with no rights at the mark. I chose to capsize rather than collide with another competitor--my boat was brand new. In both cases I was back aboard and sailing within 30 seconds. My reference to DNF was directed more toward Lightnings and Thistles. They can be self-rescued, but you'll be trailing the pack unless you were far ahead to begin with. A Thistle takes about 15 minutes to self-bail with two Elvstrom Supermax bailers. Until then you'll be sailing an 800-to-1200 lb. Thistle. To some extent, it depends.... but it also shows (to me, anyway) the unwisdom of sailing a non-updated 60 year old design. The only reason at all why Thistles and Lightnings (or for that matter, Flying Scots) can't be better at self-rescuing is the dinosaurs running the class associations. You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air. Depends on what you call "heavy air." I've sailed thim in 25 knot winds and 5 foot waves. We were clocked at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon. WOW!!! ...I have yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed, Really? I have.... many many many times. ... I do have lots of time sailing them, especially on the wire as crew, but we never came close to 10kts. boat speed. Let me put it this way... didn't you claim to have "busted" a spinnaker on a 470? Sounds very doubtful to me, since light boats with little spinnakers don't generally do this unless the spinnaker was a worn-out rag to start with. Now you claim that in sail-busting conditions, the boat didn't hit ten knots... I can only guess that you were either dragging a bucket or two (which would contribute to loading up the sail) or you're completely & totally full of malarkey. Well, that's *slightly* funny, if inaccurate. If you'd actually sailed rings around Flying Scots in "all kinds of conditions," the conditions where you sail are, um, limited. Well, sure. I never raced a 470 against a FS in a hurricane in mid-ocean, for example. But nobody else has either, so I don't feel bad. Pretty much got every other combination covered though. Spent a number of years racing 470s at clubs all over the eastern U.S. back in the day when there was a class of them. Many (perhaps most) of the same clubs had a lot of self-puffed Flying Scot sailors who were convinced their boat was faster too.... of couorse, the fact that the slowest 470 often lapped the fastest Flying Scot seemed to escape their notice, which is the best way to maintain such illusions. Gives "Don't Look, Don't Tell" a new implication. -signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye) PS: Lightnings often lap Flying Scots too. |
Bad design?
Maxprop wrote:
You've obviously never sailed a Flying Scot in heavy air. For what, to measure the tremendous stern wave they pull? .... We were clocked at 10kts.+ on plane by a Boston Whaler driver one 20kt. afternoon. I have yet to see a 470 achieve that sort of speed Easily cured FFwd thru the first minute, then watch these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1QHahNUahs -signed- Injun Ear (formerly known as Eagle Eye) (thanks to Sailing Anarchist EST for the video link) |
Bad design?
I don't think I can add much to FJ's comments, but that won't stop me ...
Maxprop wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message ... Maxprop wrote: You would pick the slowest boat (and the only keelboat) as your example. :-) Uh, Max? You're the one who brought up the Ensign, not me. I mentioned it because it was part of my racing resume. To use the Ensign as your example of a low-performance boat is akin to flogging a dead horse. So you're presenting your "racing resume" as proof of your deep experience, as in: "I race a old Alberg keel boat, so I know all about high performance dinghies." Thanks, now we understand where you're coming from. I have fond memories of the Ensign - a friend bought one and asked me to help with his first cruise. We went from Mattapoisett to Wood's Hole .... Why cruise an Ensign?? It's a daysailer at best, with a cuddy too small for a child. Why not cruise it? It's the boat we had at the time. You seem to have a lot of rules. Actually, this particular "cruise" was a long one day daysail, though it was also used for overnighters. Shortly after that I did a number of long weekend "cruises" in an open daysailer (CC Mercury) accompanied by a Lark (slightly bigger than a 420). Are you saying I should have waited until I had a "proper" cruising boat? And it's no revelation that you didn't capsize. I'm unaware of anyone who ever did capsize a keelboat with a 1:3 ballast/displacement ratio in anything under a gale and monster waves. Hey, you're the one who brought it up! I'm quite happy to leave the Ensign out of discussions of performance dinks. .... Then you never sailed one [470] in extreme conditions, close to the edge. No? How does 25kts with gusts to 35 sound? I was on the wire with a very experienced skipper and, no, we didn't capsize. We did a screaming, planing reach for about 7 miles under chute. That was fun until the chute blew out. And I'm sure he *never* has capsized in his life. Sure, Max, tell us another one. And elsewhere you claim you never came close 10 knots in a 470. If you had a 7 mile spinnaker "screaming, planing reach" in 25 gusting 35 and didn't hit 10 knots, you had a serious problem. Your story is getting mighty shaky here. Are you sure that wasn't really a dream? .... No, I never sailed a Finn in anything over 15kts, which is plenty in that boat. The Finn death roll happens so fast that it takes an athlete to correct for it before the mast passes the point of no return. So that's your secret! You never actually go out when there's a risk. Before that I had always sailed low performance boats, like Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns (actually, mostly Cape Cod Mercury's) and had never capsized. I don't consider a Thistle or a Lightning to be low-performance. Mid-performance, perhaps, but hardly slow or unexciting boats. A planing Thistle will leave a planing 470 in its wake, In lighter winds, the Thistle is faster; in fact, the Thistle is impressive (compared to other boats) in a Force 1. However, in a strong breeze, the 470 has the edge. And a 505 would walk away from both in any condition beyond a drifter. with a Lightning not far behind. Well, a Lightning is 19 feet so it might even have the edge on the 14 foot 470 upwind. But certainly not off the wind. And it takes athleticism to keep a Thistle from capsizing, unlike those so-called "high-performance" boats with wide side-decks that roll into flotation tanks. Hell, a 505's decks hang over the water so much that you really have to bury that rail to capsize. And there's damn little cockpit to fill with water if you do, not to mention that most of it will exit the transom flaps in an instant once you get the boat upright. Same with a 470. In other words, the 505 and 470 were designed to accommodate easy recovery from a capsize. I wonder why that is? The Thistle, on the other hand, probably comes up with a few hundred gallons - hardly incentive to push the boat to its limits. And you seem to be playing both sides of this, at one time claiming you never capsized a Thistle, but then bragging about the athleticism required to avoid flipping. Claiming no one flips a 505, then pointing out the wide decks and stern flaps, specifically designed in to facilitate recovery. I raced FJs and 420s in college. My experience with that genera of racing is that collegiate sailors are, as a rule, not terribly experienced or adept in higher winds. I include myself in that description, as it was really at the beginning of my serious pursuit of sailboat racing. Capsizes were not uncommon at the college level. Your story is getting shaky here, Max. If you have sailed 470's, Finns, 420's and FJ's, then why would you even think of referring to Snipes, Thistles, Lightnings, and Ensigns as high performance dinghies? I didn't. I never said they were--you made that leap of illogic. You're a real funny guy. Let me paraphrase your claim: "I've sailed an Ensign so I know your claim that flipping 505's is common is bogus." Sure thing, Max. I'm the one who is "illogical." I was simply reciting my *racing* resume. But your contention that a high-performance dinghy is more likely to capsize than, say, a Thistle or Snipe is ludicrous. And a Finn is hardly a high-performance dinghy, nor is an FJ, by the way. Clearly, the Finn is dated, but its still pretty fast compared to other singlehanded dinks. Actually the Finn held the speed record for small boats for a number of years. Also the FJ isn't in the same class as the 505, but its a lot closer in design to them then to the Ensign! No doubt you sailed more conservatively in that circumstance. Of course. There are time to be conservative, and times to let it all hang out. Ever sailed a Contender? I have. How about a Flying Dutchman? Ditto. And I'll bet the Flying Scots I've sailed in heavy air will leave a 470 in their wake as well. You might have a case with the FD, a truly fast boat, but the Flying Scot would have trouble keeping a 470 in sight. It would even have trouble keeping a Lightning in sight. And the 505, which I was using as my "benchmark" high performance boat of 30 years ago, would leave them all (except maybe the FD) in the dust. You make the same mistake that BB makes--you place all your faith in numbers (weight vs. sail area, etc.) and ratings. While they do give a relative means of comparing boats in typical conditions, they don't cover the entire spectrum of a boat's performance in various sea and wind conditions. For example: would you rather sail a 505 or a Thistle in big seas with 30kts.? I'll take the 505 any day. It'll have a far better chance of returning to the dock without a hull full of water. I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that you'd rather sail the 505 because its faster, more fun, and easier to recover from a capsize? I'll agree on all counts. Remember, the actual issue here is whether it OK to flip a real high performance boat in a non-racing, controlled environment as seen in the video of the Spitfires. These boats are probably 25% faster than any of the boats we've discussed, and were being sailed in a protected harbor with a chase boat. Further, these boats were specifically designed as trainers for young, lightweight sailors who are too small to hold down a Tornado. It takes real stick-in-the-mud to say "I sailed for 20 years and never did that." |
Bad design?
Maxprop wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:02:59 -0500, "Ellen MacArthur" scribbled thusly: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Nope, just exceptionally bad crew work. Bingo. Hit the nail on the head, Oz. Max I think a bit of both, wave piercing hull tends to pierce in a straight line, a bit more flare high up on the bows would do wonders. Pushing any Cat to the limits you can expect to pitch pole and flip, not as much as the weekend warriors in Ellens flick, but often. I think the Earthrace boat is in for a rude awakening dealing with the same issue. http://www.earthrace.net/ They do not have enough power to punch thru big waves, and a big wave that envelopes the boat will snuff out the engines. Wave piercing is great to a point, but ability to rise submerged and not just drive forward is just as important. Joe |
Bad design?
Hey Joe,
Just to set all of your minds at ease, we have been through some nice big waves (14m) and faired nicely. With 1200 HP with our updated 8.3 Cummins QSC's we will have no proplem. Craig Loomis is a masterful ship designer and many have staked their reputations, careers, and (gulp) lives on this design and feel quite confident. Keep an eye on us and wish us luck! Thanks! Anthony Distefano Earthrace Engineer Joe wrote: Maxprop wrote: OzOne wrote in message ... On Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:02:59 -0500, "Ellen MacArthur" scribbled thusly: These multihulls pitchpole in smooth water. What's with that? Bad design? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSKI1RN9Co Cheers, Ellen Nope, just exceptionally bad crew work. Bingo. Hit the nail on the head, Oz. Max I think a bit of both, wave piercing hull tends to pierce in a straight line, a bit more flare high up on the bows would do wonders. Pushing any Cat to the limits you can expect to pitch pole and flip, not as much as the weekend warriors in Ellens flick, but often. I think the Earthrace boat is in for a rude awakening dealing with the same issue. http://www.earthrace.net/ They do not have enough power to punch thru big waves, and a big wave that envelopes the boat will snuff out the engines. Wave piercing is great to a point, but ability to rise submerged and not just drive forward is just as important. Joe |
Bad design?
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Bad design?
"Joe" wrote Tell that asshole taking applications he should follow up with anyone who takes the time to apply. (deleted some) BTW tell that fellow accepting applications that I'm still interested in crewing. Uh, Joe. First you call him an asshole. Then you expect him to hire you. Are you on drugs? Cheers, Ellen |
Bad design?
Ellen MacArthur wrote: "Joe" wrote Tell that asshole taking applications he should follow up with anyone who takes the time to apply. (deleted some) BTW tell that fellow accepting applications that I'm still interested in crewing. Uh, Joe. First you call him an asshole. Then you expect him to hire you. Are you on drugs? Cheers, Ellen Not following up on a request you made of applicants, shows that you have no respect for others efforts and time. I could understand not following thru if you did not request applicants, but thats not the case. A thank you for your application, or acknowledgement of receipt and consideration is in order. If they do not like that opinion then they can kiss my ass anyway. Respect is a two way street. I'm willing to give the sloucher a second chance, I'm sure he's quite busy, but thats not an excuse to act like an asshole. Joe |
Bad design?
"Joe" wrote A thank you for your application, or acknowledgement of receipt and consideration is in order. I agree with you. If they do not like that opinion then they can kiss my ass anyway. Respect is a two way street. I'm willing to give the sloucher a second chance, I'm sure he's quite busy, but thats not an excuse to act like an asshole. The *sloucher* could be related to the owner. Would you really lower yourself to work for an outfit like that? If they're unprofessional at one level it's probably that way all the way up and down. Cheers, Ellen |
Bad design?
Ellen MacArthur wrote: "Joe" wrote A thank you for your application, or acknowledgement of receipt and consideration is in order. I agree with you. If they do not like that opinion then they can kiss my ass anyway. Respect is a two way street. I'm willing to give the sloucher a second chance, I'm sure he's quite busy, but thats not an excuse to act like an asshole. The *sloucher* could be related to the owner. Might be a paper pushing, gate keeper as well. Would you really lower yourself to work for an outfit like that? Sure, everyone makes mistakes and has to set priorities. I see the attempt as worthy of the adversity and personal expences and risk involved. If they're unprofessional at one level it's probably that way all the way up and down. I'm sure it's just a matter of someone plowing thru huge piles and piles of administrative and logistical prep work. But you are correct, it could make you wonder what other small detail was overlooked. They need my fresh critical eye, advice and experience. With it they have a better chance of success ;0) Joe Cheers, Ellen |
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