sailtrain
 

hello all,

I'm not much of a sailor sorry about that but I would like to hear what
you think of this idea.

Thanks in advance :-)

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/sailtrain

sailtrain
 

I guess it depends on what's between the stations...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
hello all,

I'm not much of a sailor sorry about that but I would like to hear what
you think of this idea.

Thanks in advance :-)

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/sailtrain

sailtrain
 

wrote:
hello all,

I'm not much of a sailor sorry about that but I would like to hear what
you think of this idea.


How do you accerate? Partly gravity and partly wind hitting the sails?
What are you going to do if you are heading into the wind - tack the
tracks? That's at best a one way trip if the wind is at your back. If
you are heading into the wind, the wind will dissipate the action of
gravity and you'll get stuck at the bottom.

Back to the drawing board.

sailtrain
 

I did once consider a similar question regarding hydrogen fuel celled
vehicles and thier associated systems: solar shingles, electrolysis of
water to hydrogen at home, storage in a gasbag in the attic or in a low
pressure balloon tethered up the chimney, etc.

It seemed to me that high pressure H2 tanks were self defeating because
of thier weight; if a low pressure tank, or balloon were employed in
lieu, a large enough tank would make it unneccessary to drive on roads,
as the gasbag could carry the vehicle, with some unexpected
consequences. An H2, or any blimp would allow the vehicle to climb and
accellerate without expenditure of energy, but would require energy
expenditure to descend, if bouyancy was controlled and reduced by
compressing some of the H2 in the lifting gasbag into a higher pressure
bouyancy compensating bladder, like fish employ. If the vehicle was
tethered to a runner on a bridle between journey end points, bouyancy
would accellerate the vehicle and approaching the other end being
pulled back to earth by running along the tether would assist in
deccellerating it. It seemed that the vehicle could also employ sails
if the wind were favourable and the tether acted as a keel preventing
leeway, like the rails on a wind train.

It seems an equally interesting in not practical idea, if not mainly
because of the weight of the tether. Of course, if it were a tube
bouyed up by H2, eliminating that weight limitation might make it work,
not to mention the free flight option.

Terry K

sailtrain
 

If only we had some dilithium crystals captain.

sailtrain
 

Capt. JG wrote:
I guess it depends on what's between the stations...


It will be far from ideal transport in most locations but has potential
as an energy source to drive other trains some place else. It's more a
compliment to as a replacement for our current trains.

Kernix wrote:

How do you accerate? Partly gravity and partly wind hitting the sails?

And possibly a flywheel a huge spring motor and even a little bit of
electricity. I will use a horse if that's what it takes :-) I bet
hamsters would get the crowd moving.

What are you going to do if you are heading into the wind - tack the
tracks? That's at best a one way trip if the wind is at your back.

I have various ideas for that, one is bending the wind with large
screens by the rail. Using an s shaped solid sail it can also be made
to rotate around it's axle on the wind. The spring and/or flywheel will
have to be big enough to travel from station to station.

The train would have to generate more energy as it needs for driving
back. Either tru using the sail as a a kind of turbine a large
mechanical power supply or a low schedule.

A large spring motor would probably do the trick if there is enough
wind.

wrote:
I did once consider a similar question regarding hydrogen fuel celled
vehicles and thier associated systems: solar shingles, electrolysis of
water to hydrogen at home, storage in a gasbag in the attic or in a low
pressure balloon tethered up the chimney, etc.

It seemed to me that high pressure H2 tanks were self defeating because
of thier weight; if a low pressure tank, or balloon were employed in
lieu, a large enough tank would make it unneccessary to drive on roads,
as the gasbag could carry the vehicle, with some unexpected
consequences. An H2, or any blimp would allow the vehicle to climb and
accellerate without expenditure of energy, but would require energy
expenditure to descend, if bouyancy was controlled and reduced by
compressing some of the H2 in the lifting gasbag into a higher pressure
bouyancy compensating bladder, like fish employ. If the vehicle was
tethered to a runner on a bridle between journey end points, bouyancy
would accellerate the vehicle and approaching the other end being
pulled back to earth by running along the tether would assist in
deccellerating it. It seemed that the vehicle could also employ sails
if the wind were favourable and the tether acted as a keel preventing
leeway, like the rails on a wind train.

It seems an equally interesting in not practical idea, if not mainly
because of the weight of the tether. Of course, if it were a tube
bouyed up by H2, eliminating that weight limitation might make it work,
not to mention the free flight option.

Terry K

I suggest you try write some documentation for your idea. I believe
NASA is far enough with high pressure balloons to have em float fixed
at specific height.

The only reason you are not flying around in your train jet is because
you didn't make any effort of it. I don't plan to build my train
either. :-) But hey, it may bring an interesting discussion.

I would love to learn what kind of sail would be best for this kind of
rail ferry.

Just ran into this silversurfer.
http://www.solarsailor.com.au/

wow. :-)

sailtrain
 

wrote:

Kernix wrote:

How do you accerate? Partly gravity and partly wind hitting the sails?

And possibly a flywheel a huge spring motor and even a little bit of
electricity. I will use a horse if that's what it takes :-) I bet
hamsters would get the crowd moving.

What are you going to do if you are heading into the wind - tack the
tracks? That's at best a one way trip if the wind is at your back.

I have various ideas for that, one is bending the wind with large
screens by the rail. Using an s shaped solid sail it can also be made
to rotate around it's axle on the wind. The spring and/or flywheel will
have to be big enough to travel from station to station.

Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest - you cannot tack
on tracks - the wind is pushing you back - how do you actually think
you are going to overcome that one. Better spend your time on a new
potato peeler.

sailtrain
 

Kernix wrote:

Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest

Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these statements
are correct.

///Walt

sailtrain
 

Walt wrote:


Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

And close hauled isn't with the wind directly at you is it?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these statements
are correct.


Sorry about that - I assumed that that the max knots would be when the
wind is at your back fulling filling the sails, rather than when in
front where it provides resistance - I'm shocked I'm wrong - that point
A to point B would not be fastest going with the wind given the same
sailboat - but regardless - my point was how is this going to propel
his sail train on rails when he's heading into the wind.

Sorry if my assumptions were wrong - will be taking my 1st sailing
lessons in the spring - but doesn't any one think a sailing train is
ridiculous?

sailtrain
 

Kernix wrote:
Walt wrote:


Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?


And close hauled isn't with the wind directly at you is it?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these statements
are correct.


Also depends on ypiur destination. Going downwind fast when your
destination is upwind won't get you very far very fast....

sailtrain
 

As a 0 gauge railroader I don't like the idea. You couldn't make a
model of the thing since there is no wind in most basements.

sailtrain
 

Ringmaster wrote:

As a 0 gauge railroader I don't like the idea. You couldn't make a
model of the thing since there is no wind in most basements.


Well, you should invite all of us over to discuss things.

There'd be plenty of wind.

//Walt

sailtrain
 

Kernix wrote:
Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest


Walt wrote:
Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these statements
are correct.


I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

DSK

sailtrain
 

DSK wrote:


I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

Easy. You just lay track 45 degrees to the direction of the next
station, and then put in a 90 degree turn halfway there. The train will
have to tack. Add in a direct line without a turn, plus another right
angle track on the other side, and the train should be able to sail to
the next station regardless of the wind direction. That is, as long as
your switchman can read the wind.

And the best part about it is: NO LEEWAY.

//Walt

sailtrain
 

Walt wrote:
And the best part about it is: NO LEEWAY.


Other than landslides and/or continental drift, of course.

DSK

sailtrain
 

DSK wrote:

Kernix wrote:
Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest


Walt wrote:
Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these statements
are correct.


I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

I'm sure you could get some Hollywood types to make a movie about it,
spend a couple of hundred millions, get Kevin Costner to be the
engineer! ;-)

Cheers
Marty

sailtrain
 

Jon Boight.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Kernix wrote:
Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the
wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest


Walt wrote:
Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these
statements
are correct.


I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

I'm sure you could get some Hollywood types to make a movie about it,
spend a couple of hundred millions, get Kevin Costner to be the
engineer! ;-)

Cheers
Marty

sailtrain
 

DSK wrote:
I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

I was thinking if the wind is exactly 0 degrees you get the day off
from work or a hotel coupon. hehe

Walt wrote:
Easy. You just lay track 45 degrees to the direction of the next
station, and then put in a 90 degree turn halfway there. The train will
have to tack. Add in a direct line without a turn, plus another right
angle track on the other side, and the train should be able to sail to
the next station regardless of the wind direction. That is, as long as
your switchman can read the wind.

And the best part about it is: NO LEEWAY.

A solid sail as wind turbine could also work but probably much slower
as z shaped rails. The extra distance is nice as it generates more
energy.

The spring-flywheel should be able to store enough of the collected
energy. The train should have many of them. The build-up momentum
should be stored at the train-station (some how).

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/spring-flywheel

I expect the wind to be either much to strong or to weak.

Should it try to keep the schedule or aim for peak performance?

What kind of sails would give the best overall performance in an open
area?

sailtrain
 

Er... Jon Voight.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Jon Boight.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Kernix wrote:
Okay - basic sailing - if the wind is at your back - yeah, the crew
is
happy and sailing is easier and top speeds are obtainable - if the
wind
is hitting your face - boo, the crew now has to work by tacking and
this is when the speed of the boat is at it's slowest


Walt wrote:
Basic sailing? Dead down wind is fastest? Close hauled is slowest?

Um....this somewhat depends on the boat, but neither of these
statements
are correct.


I'm trying to picture how a train is going to tack upwind.

I'm sure you could get some Hollywood types to make a movie about it,
spend a couple of hundred millions, get Kevin Costner to be the
engineer! ;-)

Cheers
Marty

sailtrain
 

wrote:
A solid sail as wind turbine could also work but probably much slower
as z shaped rails. The extra distance is nice as it generates more
energy.


Slower in speed along the Z-rails, perhaps, but not made
good from station to station.


The spring-flywheel should be able to store enough of the collected
energy. The train should have many of them. The build-up momentum
should be stored at the train-station (some how).

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/spring-flywheel

I expect the wind to be either much to strong or to weak.


Sure. When is it otherwise?

Should it try to keep the schedule or aim for peak performance?

What kind of sails would give the best overall performance in an open
area?


Why not use the sails as a wind turbine to drive a staionary
generator, that way the vehicle can be lighter & more
streamlined, and powered by electricity which can be
efficiently transmitted over long distances. No z-shaped
rail routes.

DSK

sailtrain
 

Spring steel energy storage? Heavy. Hard to move heavy rolling stock
with windpower alone. If you had an electreic booster motor running
off of a wire you could feed excess energy back to the rail
electrification system, hopefully not underfoot. Electric generator
brakes feeding an overhead or trackside wire might provide some power
for trains going dead upwind or uphill, but I doubt it could be
practicable. Better a cable drive, with counterbalanced opposing
direction cars, boostable with water ballast.

Rainwater is one way to bleed energy from wind, with a fog farm on a
hilltop.

One type of analysis could consider hydrogen as a battery electrolyte,
or cold liquid nitrogen as a sink for energy, permitting a cold engine
system, would utilise the atmosphere as rhetorical electrolyte storing
heat from liquifier pumps to be returned to the cold air hog "unsteam"
engine as energy to expand while heating the liquid and gaseous
nitrogen. Bonus: free air conditioning in the vehicle.

Timing the N2 condensation, or storage phase, and expansion, or use
phase, in combination with efficient insulation could increase the
apparrant energy density of the system if the N2 was stored after being
condensed in the cold of winter, warming the ambient, providing excess
heat for use in the winter, then if the N2 were "burned off" in the
summer, it could seem quite poweful and efficient, harvesting the
seasonal temperature variations.

It's a solar energy cycle thing, isn't it?

A sail snail rail train will never cut it. An air conditioned moped
with balloon weather shelter, a liquid N2 cold air hog might.

Why do we not use air conditioners as heaters in cool weather, saving
heating power, since a heat pump is the most efficient heater there is
(150%). All we need do is turn the air conditioner around in the spring
and fall, or not use it to cool in the summer, leaving it reversed all
the time, with only the plug in the wall as an off on switch.
Provision would also need be made to reroute condenser drippage.

Terry K

sailtrain
 

Count me out for the sail train but how about the sooooouuuul train?

sailtrain
 

my comment disapeard :(

sailtrain
 

thanks for the repys,

So far I think it's a good idea to use the trains we already have to
transport the passengers.

I was thinking to make sails the same width and half the height of the
train.

Put them in sets of 4 on their own set of wheels.

Then attach a row of such carts to the front and rear end of the train.

The amount of carts you take with you depends on how brutal the wind is
that day.

If there is non you bring non. :-)

I have no idea how often it would be useful.

But now that I've imaginated a size with the sail of the imaginary
apparatus maybe you could tell me how much carts we need to create an
interesting "wingspan" for our earth rotating windmill of sailnovation.
:-)

sailtrain
 

wrote in message
oups.com..
..
thanks for the repys,


I have no idea how often it would be useful.


never

sailtrain
 

hello scotty,

with "never", do you mean each individual sail is to small to pull the
cart

or would it require to much carts to be useful?

sailtrain
 

hello Scotty,

With "never" do you mean each individual sail is much to small

or would the row of carts get to big.

sailtrain
 

''never'' was in response to the usefulness of it.

Scotty



wrote in message
ups.com...
hello scotty,

with "never", do you mean each individual sail is to small
to pull the
cart

or would it require to much carts to be useful?

sailtrain
 

With "IT" what do you mean specifically? And how did you come to this
conclusion?

Are you referring to public transport? :-)

So far I think it's a good idea to use the trains we already have to
transport the passengers. I was thinking to make sails the same width
and half the height of the train. Put them in sets of 4 on their own
set of wheels. carts to the front and rear end of the train. The
amount of carts you take with you depends on how brutal the wind is
that day.

The carts don't have to be heavy if they can be clamped onto the rails.

I imagine 60 mini sails could pull a reasonable size train or at least
help pull it.

Scotty wrote:
''neveScottys in response to the usefulness of it.

Scotty

sailtrain
 

do you have any clue as to how much a train weighs? how
much HP is needed to move one?

Scotty


wrote in message
oups.com..
..
With "IT" what do you mean specifically? And how did you
come to this
conclusion?

Are you referring to public transport? :-)

So far I think it's a good idea to use the trains we
already have to
transport the passengers. I was thinking to make sails the
same width
and half the height of the train. Put them in sets of 4 on
their own
set of wheels. carts to the front and rear end of the
train. The
amount of carts you take with you depends on how brutal
the wind is
that day.

The carts don't have to be heavy if they can be clamped
onto the rails.

I imagine 60 mini sails could pull a reasonable size train
or at least
help pull it.

Scotty wrote:
''neveScottys in response to the usefulness of it.

Scotty

sailtrain
 

Where's loco when we need him..

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Scotty" wrote in message
...
do you have any clue as to how much a train weighs? how
much HP is needed to move one?

Scotty


wrote in message
oups.com..
.
With "IT" what do you mean specifically? And how did you
come to this
conclusion?

Are you referring to public transport? :-)

So far I think it's a good idea to use the trains we
already have to
transport the passengers. I was thinking to make sails the
same width
and half the height of the train. Put them in sets of 4 on
their own
set of wheels. carts to the front and rear end of the
train. The
amount of carts you take with you depends on how brutal
the wind is
that day.

The carts don't have to be heavy if they can be clamped
onto the rails.

I imagine 60 mini sails could pull a reasonable size train
or at least
help pull it.

Scotty wrote:
''neveScottys in response to the usefulness of it.

Scotty

sailtrain
 

Thanks for the constructive criticisms. :-)

On Nov 23, 5:52 pm, "Scotty" wrote:
do you have any clue as to how much a train weighs? how
much HP is needed to move one?

But of course I do,

The idea is to use conventional trains and use the sails to assist.

Electric trains can generate about 30% of the energy used to accelerate
while breaking.

If (on average) we could shave of (only) an extra 10% the sail would
already be interesting.

For now I think solid sails are the best solution, I've updated the
page a bit.

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/sailtrain
gabydewilde - Sailtrain

sailtrain
 

this looks interesting

http://www.google.com/patents?q=patent%3A583533

On Nov 25, 11:23 pm, " wrote:
Thanks for the constructive criticisms. :-)

On Nov 23, 5:52 pm, "Scotty" wrote:

do you have any clue as to how much a train weighs? how
much HP is needed to move one?But of course I do,

The idea is to use conventional trains and use the sails to assist.

Electric trains can generate about 30% of the energy used to accelerate
while breaking.

If (on average) we could shave of (only) an extra 10% the sail would
already be interesting.

For now I think solid sails are the best solution, I've updated the
page a bit.

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/sailtrain
gabydewilde - Sailtrain