Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote in message ...


Ya think?
You have a president with radical christain views (despite what he
practices)

Not really. His views are rather traditional Christian views, with a few
minor contemporary quirks. Nothing radical about them, and both Americans
and Europeans would agree. Now, if you'd care to discuss some of the
current radical Muslim values . . .

You have a bunch of laws after 911 which are quite the equivalent of a
police state, and,

Yes, perhaps, but nothing at all like the gun grab in Oz. That's more like
a totalitarian state action.

You have by way of your gun laws a situation where people regularly
walk into schools and shoot people.

That's most unfortunate, but look in your own backyard before casting stones
on this issue. Your own gun violence, robbery, murder, etc. have risen
substantially since the bad guys no longer face law-abiding armed citizens
in Oz.

Our problem here stems from a legal system gone awry. Students can no
longer be disciplined in our schools, thanks to the ACLU and money-hungry
left-wing lawyers. So kids run amok daily. They bully younger, smaller,
weaker kids to the breaking point. Parents don't parent, and teachers can't
teach. And the kids have few positive role models. So they act out against
their deepest frustrations and fears. In my youth, we had almost no gun
laws at all, and no one ever walked into a school and started shooting.
That's because the school administrators and teachers could discipline
unruly kids and expel the ones that were incorrigible. Sure, we had
bullies, but we used to get a bunch of kids together and take the bullies
out back and beat the hell out of them. Problem solved. Today such action
would land us all in jail and invite myriad lawsuits. Our legal system is
the problem, not guns. And lack of guns among the law-abiding is a problem
for you in Oz.


It may be dumb but as they say on the box "Scotty, this is your life "

I'll take Scotty's life over one in Oz any day.

Max

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:33:29 -0400, "Scotty"
scribbled thusly:


You watch too much TV.


Nah, just the news...

That "news" wouldn't be just a little bit slanted, now would it?

Max

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 03:04:18 -0500, "Scout"
scribbled thusly:


Yeah, I know Oz, but c'mon, we got this
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...97509592vMnMBM
Scout


Bah.....dime a dozen here.
Heck, my daughter kills her....and thinks she's not as pretty as her
girlfriends.

How about some photos of your daughter and her friends, then?

I'll bet Scotty's for that.

Max

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
nk.net...

OzOne wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 03:04:18 -0500, "Scout"

scribbled thusly:


Yeah, I know Oz, but c'mon, we got this

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...330097509592vM
nMBM
Scout


Bah.....dime a dozen here.
Heck, my daughter kills her....and thinks she's not as
pretty as her
girlfriends.

How about some photos of your daughter and her friends,
then?

I'll bet Scotty's for that.


I've seen his daughter and wife. They are both pretty.

SBV

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote
You have a president with radical christain views (despite what he
practices)

What do you think is radical about his Christian views? What exactly
is wrong about being a Christian these days? Do Christians blow
themselves up? Do they try and impose their beliefs on other
religions? Well, you could say liberalism is a religion. Is trying
to establish standards and values wrong?

Many people in the Republican party think Bush is too moderate.
Most Americans like moderate leaders. The extremists kooks
are nearly monopolized by the liberals.

You have a bunch of laws after 911 which are quite the equivalent of a
police state, and,

Right. We have storm troopers in the streets. Watch out for
the brown shirts! They are coming to get you! And the answer is...

You have by way of your gun laws a situation where people regularly
walk into schools and shoot people.

No doubt. If the teaches could carry, that would solve that
problem. All the laws tend to prohibit people from protecting
themselves! How many school shooters had carry permits?
zero (0). So what exactly are you saying? Passing a law doesn't
prevent an act from occuring. In fact I'm sure all those instances
were clear examples of laws being broken. Although I can see how
someone who can't connect cause and effect would think passing
a law would stop such events.

Chose to be a man or a sheep.


It may be dumb but as they say on the box "Scotty, this is your life "
;-)

Right. And you have a right to protect your life. Gun laws serve to
prevent tyranny. More importantly, they give you the option to live
if you so chose.

Your observations Oz, continue to amaze me. Calling the US a police
state--the country that typifies freedom, is an insult. Concern yourself
with
your own country. MYOB

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

"Bart" .@. wrote in message
...

Chose to be a man or a sheep.

He can't help it, his Mum was a sheep.





It may be dumb but as they say on the box "Scotty, this
is your life "
;-)

Right. And you have a right to protect your life. Gun
laws serve to
prevent tyranny. More importantly, they give you the
option to live
if you so chose.

Your observations Oz, continue to amaze me. Calling the
US a police
state--the country that typifies freedom, is an insult.
Concern yourself
with
your own country. MYOB


All good points Bart.
One mo we'd be overrun with cats if we didn't have our
own guns.


--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:25:24 -0500, "Bart" .@.
scribbled thusly:

Fact or fiction?
Where did they buy their weapon....the local sports store?

Fact. What's your point? You never went hunting?





We don't....we have largly succeeded in getting control of
guns.


at the cost of freedom. Not a good trade IMO.



--
Scott Vernon
Plowville Pa _/)__/)_/)_

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

"Bart" .@. wrote in message ...

OzOne wrote
You have a president with radical christain views (despite what he
practices)

What do you think is radical about his Christian views?

Who would Jesus bomb?

What exactly is wrong about being a Christian these days?

Being associated with the likes of Bush.

Do Christians blow themselves up?

Fortunately only on the radio.

Do they try and impose their beliefs on other religions?

Hahaha... is that a trick question???

Well, you could say liberalism is a religion. Is trying to establish
standards and values wrong?

As long as it's a liberal one, no.

Many people in the Republican party think Bush is too moderate.

Many people think their cell phones are their most valuable possession. So
what.

Most Americans like moderate leaders. The extremists kooks are nearly
monopolized by the liberals.

You need to stop kissing the Blarney Stone. I mean it is funny, but...


You have a bunch of laws after 911 which are quite the equivalent of a
police state, and,

Right. We have storm troopers in the streets. Watch out for
the brown shirts! They are coming to get you! And the answer is...

Give it time. Habeas Corpus has been revoked for the worst of the worst. It
has to start somewhere, and it doesn't usually start with the people who
give to charities and work for a living.

You have by way of your gun laws a situation where people regularly
walk into schools and shoot people.

No doubt. If the teaches could carry, that would solve that
problem. All the laws tend to prohibit people from protecting
themselves! How many school shooters had carry permits?
zero (0). So what exactly are you saying? Passing a law doesn't
prevent an act from occuring. In fact I'm sure all those instances
were clear examples of laws being broken. Although I can see how
someone who can't connect cause and effect would think passing
a law would stop such events.

More guns. That'll solve it. Sheesh...

Chose to be a man or a sheep.

Chosing to be a man means chosing doing the right thing, rather than be lead
by the nose by some idiot.


It may be dumb but as they say on the box "Scotty, this is your life "
;-)

Right. And you have a right to protect your life. Gun laws serve to
prevent tyranny. More importantly, they give you the option to live
if you so chose.

Not in the context of individual ownership. It's not codified in the
Constitution, despite what the NRA says.

Your observations Oz, continue to amaze me. Calling the US a police
state--the country that typifies freedom, is an insult. Concern yourself
with your own country. MYOB

Keep criticising us Oz... we need a reality check.

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote:

You live in a land with guns in too many hands already..It would be
near impossible to get them all under control.

We don't....we have largly succeeded in getting control of guns.

Oz, I generally don't buy into gun threads these days but - that is
either an outright lie or such an example of wishful thinking that it
might as well be one.

There are huge numbers of guns in circulation. Legal registered ones
and illegal unregistered ones. Legally, I think that sufficient
firearms have been purchased since 1996 to completely replace all those
surrendered. Different action types to be sure, but that's an arguable
benefit really. Feel free to challenge that statement if you like, but
unlike you (?) I've been an active hunter for over 30 years so I do
know firearms. Illegal weapons- there were in excess of 200K SKK
pattern 7.62 x 39 semiauto carbines imported by one dealer alone prior
ot 1996. Nothing like that number got handed in. Feel free to prove me
wrong by posting a link to the list of firearms surrendered collated by
calibre, action type etc. I state that you can't do it. That's just
*one* firearm type. Ruger 10/22 rifles sold for $80 when they were
first released into Oz back in the early 80's. Nobody knows how many
were sold. Ruger Mini-14's ditto except they were $200 more or less.
5.56 NATO, 5 to 30 round detachable magazines. I could go on quoting
examples but what's the point. The vast majority of those firearms are
still out there in private hands. Them's facts, Oz.

In addition the Glock pistols so beloved by our immigrant community in
Sydney have either been smuggled into Oz or stolen from coppers &
security guards, because there are a lot of them about & NSW has had
pistol registration since 1922. Much good it has done.

In addition check out www.homegunsmith.com and a number of the yahoo
newsgroups devoted to firearms. You have no hope of controlling the
supply of firearms to anyone who really wants one.

These are facts, Oz. Not political positions. If you disagree, post
something with substance to the contrary. Or just bury your head and
chant the mantra, but it isn't going to be convincing, any more than
Bobsprit trying to talk about tools.

I'll take my freedom to walk the streets of my largest city at night
without feeling that I need a gun to protect myself over the
recommendations when visiting the US that I don't venture into some
areas even in daylight because of the risks.

I walk pretty much where I please in Oz but it's not due to carrying a
gun or fear of other people carrying a gun. We have a different
culture. That's the real difference between us & the USA. It isn't gun
ownership, it's attitude & culture.

What you should be considering is the *total* failure of the NSW police
to enforce security. Want to get private people to seriously consider
carrying? Let gangs run riot like the coppers did last year in Cronulla
& surrounds. I'd be getting my shotgun out of storage at that point.

Thank Bart....off you go and oil that pistol..you never know when
you'll need it.

Heh. Couple of my neighbours were potting rabbits with a shotgun then
target practice with a couple 22LR's on Sunday afternoon. Lucky you
don't live here or you'd have been suffering from an attack of the
vapours & called out the local SWAT squad.

PDW

Off Topic *Gun violence out of control*
 

OzOne wrote:
On 30 Oct 2006 14:50:05 -0800, "Peter"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote:

You live in a land with guns in too many hands already..It would be
near impossible to get them all under control.

We don't....we have largly succeeded in getting control of guns.

Oz, I generally don't buy into gun threads these days but - that is
either an outright lie or such an example of wishful thinking that it
might as well be one.

Pete, we do largely have guns under control.
Pistols just aren't out there unless illegally obtaibned.

Agreed.

Automatic rifles..same story

Agreed. Never were common. None of my friends ever had one even 20+
years ago. Expensive ammo burners. I had a play with a .50 BMG on a
ship recently and was glad your taxes were paying for the ammo :-)

Semi auto...well....

You seem to have cut out the bit where I mentioned the many (hundreds
of) thousands of long guns that were imported but never handed in.
Where are they?

Thing is we have control over the legal arms situation fot the most
part and have not allowed a US situation to develop where a pistol is
considered a great gift for your wife on her birthday...no matter how
big your life insurance policy is :-)

Shrug. We've never been a pistol culture really. The gun laws haven't
really changed that.

Pete, If you could post that list it would be appreciated.

Sort of turning it around, aren't you Oz? I know from the dealer
reports back in the 90's what was imported. It's on public record. Are
you denying it, or suggesting that I'm making the figures up? I've
never been able to get a breakdown of what was surrendered but the
total number of surrendered firearms doesn't come even close to the
semiauto centrefires imported. So - there are still ****loads of rifles
in Oz, unregistered, illegally held (now). Yet the crime rate (murder
rate) with firearms trends downward, year after year - just as it was
doing prior to 1996 and the banning of semiauto guns.

It's the culture, not the guns.

Also a list of all owners of illegal and unregisterd firearms would
also be of assistance.

Heh. If anyone really wanted one, it could be done. Well, maybe it
couldn't. Friend of mine was head of ASIAL at one point and the NSW
Firearms Registry had to ask the members for their firearms inventory.
Apparently there'd been a database crash. Can't vouch for the truth of
this but it wouldn't surprise me.

Anyway, there are the importers records - where the figures I quoted &
you ignored came from - there are the records of what's been handed in.
What's left are the unregistered ones. Now finding who has them,
different matter. As long as they're not using them to shoot their
fellow citizens, I don't care. If they start, I most certainly do care.


In addition the Glock pistols so beloved by our immigrant community in
Sydney have either been smuggled into Oz or stolen from coppers &
security guards, because there are a lot of them about & NSW has had
pistol registration since 1922. Much good it has done.

Yes, Illegal weapons are out there, but do you seriously think that
arming the population like the US model is the answer?

Nope but that's a straw man. Do you think Aussies in possession of
firearms are going to go on mass killing rampages all the time? Doesn't
happen. Different culture.

In addition check out www.homegunsmith.com and a number of the yahoo
newsgroups devoted to firearms. You have no hope of controlling the
supply of firearms to anyone who really wants one.

True...a criminal is a criminal...even if he's the guy next door who
hunts with an illegal weapon.

Circular definition but you're evading the point. You state that we
have firearms supply under control. Are you now agreeing that we don't?
Which is my point.

These are facts, Oz. Not political positions. If you disagree, post
something with substance to the contrary. Or just bury your head and
chant the mantra, but it isn't going to be convincing, any more than
Bobsprit trying to talk about tools.

Very few facts Pete, just your impressions of the situation.

Well, let's see. The importers imported at least 5X semiauto firearms
than the total surrender of rifles & shotguns. This is a fact. Where
are the rest of the guns?

Criminals who want hand guns don't seem to have difficulty getting
them. They seem to be smuggled in because the serial numbers don't
appear on databases, far as I can tell when I asked. Alternatively the
databases are a waste of time which wouldn't surprise me, and it is
what I do for a living...

The gun laws haven't prevented people from obtaining unregistered &
illegal firearms. That's a fact, too.

In addition, anyone determined enough can make a firearm out of raw
materials without a huge investment in tooling. I predicted this 10
years ago but I certainly didn't forsee the Chinese selling small
machine tools like the 7x10 lathes and mini-mills for peanuts. This has
expanded the pool of tooling enormously. Now compound this with the
fall in price of CNC equipment and the availability of CNC G-code files
and life becomes even simpler for manufacturing, much more difficult
for prevention.

Those statements are also facts.

Yet we still don't have a problem in Oz, because our culture is
different.

Yes, I walk anywhere I wish.
The culture we have is one where guns are rare not common.

Yep, that's the mantra. Perhaps we should define some terms. What do
you define as 'rare' and what do you define as 'common' in terms of
guns per head of population?


What you should be considering is the *total* failure of the NSW police
to enforce security. Want to get private people to seriously consider
carrying? Let gangs run riot like the coppers did last year in Cronulla
& surrounds. I'd be getting my shotgun out of storage at that point.

You blow the Cronulla riots up way to much.
It was bad, but it was in the streets and mostly only involved those
who chose to be there and get involved or risk being involved.
There were no home invasions nor shooting that I recall...was it one
stabbing out of the hundreds involved over the whole time?
It wasn't the Police who stuffed up, it was the Govt who wouldn't
allow them, and still isn't allowing them to do their job coupled with
a system which allows media to incite situations like that with
impunity.

It was a failure of the police to keep control. Sure, the initial
Cronulla riot was one thing but the revenge attacks were something
else. The police knew about the gathering in the park yet stood by. As
a citizen I'm disgusted. Not only or even primarily with the police,
most certainly the political command, but the police are *paid* to stop
this sort of thing and they didn't.

Heh. Couple of my neighbours were potting rabbits with a shotgun then
target practice with a couple 22LR's on Sunday afternoon. Lucky you
don't live here or you'd have been suffering from an attack of the
vapours & called out the local SWAT squad.

Why?
Is here in farmland/country or the middle of Glebe?

Semi-rural Tassie, I guess Glenorie would be equivalent; 5 acre blocks
with some a bit bigger, others a little smaller. I'd have a severe
problem with people firing rifles in the 'burbs these days, tho we used
to do it as kids in Sydney.

PDW