Random acts of stupidity
 

Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail, and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap it
so that the experience was not authentic.

Random acts of stupidity
 

Bart wrote:

Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail, and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap it
so that the experience was not authentic.

Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.

Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.

Random acts of stupidity
 

"Bart" .@. wrote in message
...
Sometimes the USCG takes safety too far. 50 years ago
this
would not have happened. But today, most of the people in
the USCG can't even sail--they are powerboaters and unable
to comprehend what seamanship really is.

I was talking to a charter schooner operation down south
that had a pretty schooner for sale. I liked everything
about
the boat. The one issue that really irked me was the USCG
would not allow them to fly all their sails when in
charter. The
were limited to just four sails. Jib, staysail, foresail,
and main.

No top sails were allow. No fisherman sail.

How could they take such a pretty boat and then handicap
it
so that the experience was not authentic.


I didn't know the CG had the authority for something like
that.
Don't they still train recruits on the Eagle? I guess only
a handful, huh?
At least the Navy still sails. Saw them racing their 44s
down in Annapolis.

Scotty

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt wrote:

Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.

Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.

You have a point Walt. I've seen that sort of thing happen.

On the other hand, sometimes, people do like putting on a show.
A schooner with topsails set is a pretty sight--it should not be
discouraged. And certainly not in light wind situations.

The skipper should be making such decisions based on wind
strength and point of sail--not because of a CG edict.

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt wrote:
Authentic? On a tourista charter?

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.


Depends very much on the boat. I don't generaly go on such
things... the last one was a skipjack charter... but some of
the boats are more tourista-y than others.


Hey, I wouldn't waste my time complianing about not having every stich
of canvass flying, if you could just get them to turn off the frickin
motor you'd be way ahead on the authenticity scale.


A lot of times, those touristy "sailing" excursions cover
the sound of the engine by playing Jimmy Buffet real loud.


Bart wrote:
You have a point Walt. I've seen that sort of thing happen.

On the other hand, sometimes, people do like putting on a show.
A schooner with topsails set is a pretty sight--it should not be
discouraged. And certainly not in light wind situations.

The skipper should be making such decisions based on wind
strength and point of sail--not because of a CG edict.


It's also a question of crew... are they busy running around
handing out funny-colored drinks with little umbrellas? Or
are they actually sailors?

DSK

Random acts of stupidity
 

I've been on some of those "sailing" excursions where they motor out of
the harbor, hoist a sail or two for show, motor around for an hour, then
pull the sails down and motor back.




Charlie Morgan wrote:
It's actually a function of how many passengers the boat is legally
allowed to carry, and how that much all that moving weight up on deck
will affect stability in a boat that was originally designed and built
to carry non-moving cargo down lower.

If you're talking only about original surviving vessels,
then they're not designed for a big deck load of people, sure.

OTOH if you jammed the deck solid with people, that still
wouldn't weigh as much as the ballast in most such boats
(human flesh is less dense than iron, rock, or even
sandbags). And the leverage of a few tons of people is not
going to be the same as several thousand square feet of sail
in the wind, fifty or more feet up a mast.

Then there are the very large number of such boats that are
modern replicas of working craft. They are designed from
scratch as such, often substituting modern materials (such
hi tech stuff as lead ballast) for improved safety & stability.


... I thought you and Bart claimed
to know something about boats.


Yep.

DSK

Random acts of stupidity
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..


(human flesh is less dense than iron, rock, or even
sandbags).

Except 'Charlie', he's more dense than a bag of hammers.

SBV

Random acts of stupidity
 

DSK wrote:
It's also a question of crew... are they busy running around
handing out funny-colored drinks with little umbrellas? Or
are they actually sailors?

Now this is an interesting topic--the crews. They can be divided
into two groups--small businesses and non-profits.

Of the two groups, I like the small business owners/operators the
best. These are sailors like you and I that fell in love with a
schooner and bought it and perhaps made it into a business or
part-time business.

On the other hand non-profits are run by that useless appendage
known as a non-profit-executive. These people are too worried
about making enough money to cover their own salaries, that they
tend to treat their skippers and crew like pawns.

These crews seem to be more out side the industry than in it.
Perhaps when you have a group of people spending so much
time together, you don't need to socialize or interact without
others in the sailing industry.

With a few excpetions, in the times I've talked to crews of
non-profit type tall-ships, they tend to be somewhat closed to
conversation--even rude--perhaps it's because when I wanted
to talk about sailing either they didn't understand what I was
talking about, or else they copped a superior attitude because
their boat was bigger or something. Perhaps they were just
too used to dealing with the public and viewed everyone as
a mark.

One group got a bit ****ed at me when I pointed out the inflatable
with the 50 HP outboard ruined the effect of the classic look.

Another time I was asking about rigging conventions--which side
the peak and throat halyards were located, etc, and got a snide
response and that was it.

Crew are often not particularly good sailors, although there
are exceptions. Many of these crew positions are filled with
free volunteers or filled at very low wages. Good sailors in Mate
positions are those looking for sea-time on higher tonnage vessels .
Once they get that and a license, they move on to better paying
situations.

The less experienced volunteers are really more tour guides, nanny's,
and lonely hearts than sailors. What serious sailor wants to dress up
like a pirate every day?

They only time I got friendly with a crew was one that was berthed
near me, and after I sailed circles around him racing Soling's, he let
me steer and dock "his" schooner, and taught me one interesting trick
about
docking--for which I'm exceedingly grateful. I reciprocated by letting
him
use our clubs Soling's whenever he wanted--he was a good sailor but his

sail trim needed a little improvement--you can understand
why--schooners
tend to have old blown out sails and they are not particularly
sensitive to
sail trim, off the wind.

Regarding the skippers: They tend to be very, very good, and they
are always licensed. The vessels are inspected, so they know
their stuff, hoist day shapes--when no one else does, and manage
their crews very well. I have not met one yet that was not highly
qualified. They still tend to be underpaid but commanding a tall-ship
is
it's own reward. IMHO, Mate's tend to be good sailors too.

Random acts of stupidity
 

Bart wrote:

With a few excpetions, in the times I've talked to crews of
non-profit type tall-ships, they tend to be somewhat closed to
conversation--even rude--perhaps it's because when I wanted
to talk about sailing either they didn't understand what I was
talking about, or else they copped a superior attitude because
their boat was bigger or something. Perhaps they were just
too used to dealing with the public and viewed everyone as
a mark.


Or maybe they just didn't want to waste their time talking to a pompous
know-it-all blowhard.

//Walt

Random acts of stupidity
 

Dave wrote:

, Walt speaking of Bart, wrote:


Or maybe they just didn't want to waste their time talking to a pompous
know-it-all blowhard.

You carry a real inferiority chip around on your shoulder, don't you
Walt.

Perhaps. If you read Bart's post, he describes going on to one of these
tourist boats, busting them for having an inauthentic dinghy, implying
that they cleat their halyards on the "wrong" side, and calling the crew
not particularly good sailors. If you behave like this, the crew is
not going to want to talk to you. You don't need to read all of Dale
Carnagie's books to realize that.

Now, I don't know Bart well enough to know whether he actually is a
pompous know-it-all blowhard, but from his description he seemed to be
acting like one. Do you disagree?

BTW, I am perfectly capable of acting like a pompous know-it-all
blowhard myself at times. So I know one when I see one. (c:

//Walt

Random acts of stupidity
 

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:34:09 -0400, "Scotty" said:


I didn't know the CG had the authority for something like
that.
Don't they still train recruits on the Eagle? I guess only
a handful, huh?
At least the Navy still sails. Saw them racing their 44s
down in Annapolis.

Dunno about now, but back when I was crewing on local races the Coasties
were very active in campaigning a fleet of J24s.

Learning to sail used to be a required part of Navy ROTC here. This
stopped about 8(?) years ago. We used to give them sailing lessons, but
for the most part they weren't really interested. We tried to get them
motivated, but they tended to look at the sailboats about like a tank
commander looks at a horse. Well, you can lead a sailor to water, but
you can't make him sail. Or something like that.

//Walt

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt said:
Now, I don't know Bart well enough to know whether he actually is a
pompous know-it-all blowhard, but from his description he seemed to be
acting like one. Do you disagree?


Key word, that.... "acting."


Dave wrote:
I've sailed with Bart. He and I don't always agree, but I'd say he has the
experience to justifiably take on a knowing air from time to time.


Also a nice turn of phrase.


BTW, I am perfectly capable of acting like a pompous know-it-all
blowhard myself at times. So I know one when I see one. (c:



And you have a sense of humor. Good for you.

If Walt took himself all *that* seriously, he wouldn't be
sailing one of those tippy little undignified kiddy-ride
boats. He'd get something he could brag about, like a
Beneteau or a C&C 27 (with radar, of course).

DSK

Random acts of stupidity
 

DSK wrote:
Walt said:
Dave wrote:

I've sailed with Bart. He and I don't always agree, but I'd say he has
the experience to justifiably take on a knowing air from time to time.

Fair enough. Sometimes know-it-alls *do* know it all. It's not the way
to bet, but it happens occasionally.

If Walt took himself all *that* seriously, he wouldn't be sailing one of
those tippy little undignified kiddy-ride boats.

What are you trying to say, Doug? That they're fun to ride, but you
don't want your friends to see you doing it?

He'd get something he
could brag about, like a Beneteau or a C&C 27 (with radar, of course).

HA! Wrong again. If I took myself seriously, I'd get myself a canary
yellow Coronado 27!

//Walt
//
//

Random acts of stupidity
 

"Charlie Morgan" said:
Maybe if he learned how to use a RADAR set, he'd
appreciate what it can do.


Dave wrote:
I've gotta admit there are times when I sure wished I had radar--generally
coming back in a fog from a long trip. But it's always a tough call how much
money to invest in electronics for a smaller boat. There's a point where you
just can't justify the added cost compared to the value of the boat.

True. And electronics lose their contributory value very
quickly, after a couple of years people look at it as though
they expect to see you shovelling coal in at the side.

But there is also the value of utility... having it to use,
when you need it (or can just benefit by use of it).

... I can
think of maybe 3 times in 25 years of sailing when I've felt the need.
Generally, it's a matter of just staying in and waiting for the fog to
clear.

Seems to me the generally a radar on a 27' older boat is overkill. But I do
see more and more of them on boats of that size.

Partly because more & more people are carrying out a
childish attitude of bragging about their possessions, and
partly because the price of electronic stuff is dropping.

The tugboat is the first boat I have owned that had radar,
wlthough I have used it briefly (and not too effectively)
for years before on OPBs. It is a great tool.

One of the basic principles of *having* radar is to use it
often, and learn to correctly interpret the target display.
If you only turn it on when you need it, the little smeary
blobs on the screen will be meaningless.

The best lesson I had in using the radar was when a retired
Navy OS Chief came wandering by the boat, looking her over
approvingly, and accepted my invitation for a cup of coffee.
He showed me quite a bit about tuning, using the range
setting for different situations (our radar is also manually
tuned, and it needs to be adjusted each time the range is
changed), and of course interpreting the target display. It
was a big help.

Another big help, which most people skip, is to RTFM!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt wrote:

Dave wrote:
You carry a real inferiority chip around on your shoulder, don't you
Walt.

Perhaps. If you read Bart's post, he describes going on to one of these
tourist boats, busting them for having an inauthentic dinghy, implying
that they cleat their halyards on the "wrong" side, and calling the crew
not particularly good sailors. If you behave like this, the crew is
not going to want to talk to you. You don't need to read all of Dale
Carnagie's books to realize that.

Now, I don't know Bart well enough to know whether he actually is a
pompous know-it-all blowhard, but from his description he seemed to be
acting like one. Do you disagree?

BTW, I am perfectly capable of acting like a pompous know-it-all
blowhard myself at times. So I know one when I see one. (c:

Walt,

A big part of sailing is unbiased, frank, open discussions of how
people interrelate on board. Take a bunch of people and stick them
on a boat together and you will have friction, pecking, leadership,
follower-ship, and teamwork--all these are things skippers need to
understand to keep things calm, greased, smooth and efficient.

You can look at the people in the group as part of a crew on an
imaginary
voyage. Some want to declare they are the "leaders". Some want to
be a captain so bad they award themselves the title that others have
earned through time and hard work. Many, like me, don't give a damn
about pecking order, because it really doesn't matter. These are the
mature ones in our group.

Those that know me, will be quick to acknowledge that I freely admit
my mistakes--I don't cover them up. Because I specifically don't want
to
come off as arrogant, I talk about things that I screw up. Few others
post
such things in here--while I know for a fact I'm not alone in this
regard.
This is how we all can learn and improve our skills.

If I step over the line, and I have, I apologize sincerely. In this
forum, it is
easy to get angry and write things we later regret. We need to
remember
who we are, and how to behave with dignity. I'm pretty careful about
what
I write. In this instance I stand by everything I've said.

I don't think I know everything, but I'd like to. Teach me something I
don't
know, I'll be grateful, because long ago I set a goal of trying to
learn
everything I can about sailing. Check back and you will see only one
other active poster has been with this group longer than I. Jon and I
have
been posting here for ten years. That is why I hate to see discussions
turn
into name calling.

Years ago I started posting questions and awarding points for correct
answers.
The chief purpose was to keep the group on sailing topics so that the
losers
posting in here don't ruin the purpose of the group by burying it in
noise.

So let's continue this conversation about non-profit tallship crews:

In each case I introduced myself and gave a short bit on my background
to let them know I worked in the industry before striking up a
conversation.
I do know a bit about sailing, and I also have a keen desire to learn
more.

the inflatable dinghy. I was subdued about my comment to one or
two crew members, it is not like I was nasty about it. I did not yell
it out.
It was repeated to others in the crew, and many took offense. Why
should
they take offense if it was true? An inflatable RIB didn't fit with
the period
look of the boat. Keep in mind this schooner used wooden blocks, tar,
and
natural fiber cordage--nothing state of the art on the vessel--except
the RIB.

A sweet looking rowing tender would have really made the boat perfect,
IMHO.
Why didn't my complements on the boat get repeated? People focus on
the
negative--that is their problem--not mine. These people in particular,
were
about as lame as could be--a bunch of whining babies who prefer to
whisper
than to confront. Real sailors aren't lame in their attitudes or
actions.

Rigging, I didn't imply anything. This was a completely different
boat.
I asked about how the boats were rigged because there were rigging
conventions I wanted to learn. You might have characterized those
sailor
as snobs, as unlike most sailors I know--they didn't want to talk about
sailing.
I received a surly, terse answer and then I was ignored. Perhaps they
were
just tired of dealing with the public and off duty--I can understand
that. Still
there is no need to be rude.

I learned my lesson. I now seek out the master of the vessel--he is the
one
with the most knowledge, class, and presence. He more likely enjoys
talking
about his vessel. I've had good success with this method.

Lets take your last point. You imply I told them directly I thought
they were
poor sailors. I didn't. I would never say such a thing, rather than
do that I
would try to teach them if I saw something glaringly obvious. These are
the
type of people I'd be most likely to invite small boat sailing. I've
done this
in the past and found that these inexperienced sailors were thrilled at
the small boat experience and enmjoyed the opportunity to steer the
boat
themselves because this was one aspect where they didn't get enough
exposure.

Go take a look at the volunteer crews on these boats and you tell me
if they are good sailors or not. Most have zero experience except on
the vessel they are on, and not many days at that. Further, they are
penned into several menial jobs which do not promote their learning.

I'm not saying they are bad people, or stupid. I would certainly
consider
doing something of that nature if I were younger--despite the low pay,
for
the adventure of it.

Still, I stand by my statements--specifically that on volunteer
non-profit
vessels like these, the crews are, in general, inexperienced sailors.
You
get what you pay for. Free labor means low skill levels. This is what
I'm
saying to you--not what I said or implied--to them. I was polite, calm

and respectful to them.

On tall ships this has been true for hundreds of years. You start
out on a tall ship as a landsman--pressed by a shore gang, and work
your way to able seaman, and then topmastman, and then afterguard.
Brute force inexperienced labor is a big part of tall-ships where large

crews are the norm.

People who start out as sailors on schooners have big holes in their
knowledge--most readily displayed when they sail small boats. They
don't realize that their skill set is much more limited. I'd prefer a
sailor
with a solid small boat background over one with only sea-time on big
schooners. You won't learn much sailing 800 miles on one tack.

Big boats are foregiving. Small boats are not, and with smaller crews,

crews learn more, and make better sailors--because they have more to
do. Many sailors who started on big boats think they are great sailors

are really only average because they don't know how to react when
things
get out of control--while small boat sailors always know what to do.

I talk about boats without political correctness. If a boat has lee
helm,
I'll talk about how the rig can be changed--what can be done to fix
that
very negative tendency. If it's your boat that has poor sailing
quality, I'll
try not to offend, but I won't nod and say it's just fine, when it
isn't.

Lots of things are written in this forum, you might resent. If so make

your point. Be sure to back it up with "quotes" of what you are
referencing.
Don't twist around what someone said out of context to support your
point
--use quotes and edit out all but what you want to debate.

One final thing Walt. I'll tell you what impresses me in this group.
Those people that bring up sailing topics of interest that cause
quality debate and shared knowledge. You don't strike me as a name
caller;
rather a potential major contributor--you have demonstrated the
knowledge.
I hope you will be an active contributor for many years, and I hope we
get a
chance to sail together someday.

Bart

Random acts of stupidity
 

If Walt took himself all *that* seriously, he wouldn't be sailing one
of those tippy little undignified kiddy-ride boats.


Walt wrote:
What are you trying to say, Doug? That they're fun to ride, but you
don't want your friends to see you doing it?


I'm trying to say that one of my favorite routines, on light
air days, was to make a great ceremony of putting a quarter
in the centerboard slot, and announcing, "Mommy! This darn
thing is broken!"

Life's too short to go around with with an inflated sense of
gravitas, and sailing a small fast tippy boat is about the
most fun one can have with one's clothes on.

DSK

Random acts of stupidity
 

Scotty wrote:
I didn't know the CG had the authority for something like
that.
Don't they still train recruits on the Eagle? I guess only
a handful, huh?
At least the Navy still sails. Saw them racing their 44s
down in Annapolis.

The coasties do sail their middies on the Eagle. It is not
the same thing as getting small boat sailing time.

Take a look at their regulations. No one ever considers
sailing, and sail training in the USCG certifications. Laws
in many areas are ambiguous and poorly defined. That
tells me, they don't have enough sailors in the USCG.

Anyone can steer a powerboat. It takes skill to sail.

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt wrote:

Learning to sail used to be a required part of Navy ROTC here. This
stopped about 8(?) years ago. We used to give them sailing lessons, but
for the most part they weren't really interested. We tried to get them
motivated, but they tended to look at the sailboats about like a tank
commander looks at a horse. Well, you can lead a sailor to water, but
you can't make him sail. Or something like that.

Where are you Walt?

Random acts of stupidity
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
....In the LIS, sudden isolated thunder storms are a possibility
in almost every forecast in the summer. It's nice to know where they are and
sail around them.

??

You're how old, and you haven't learned to spot a
thunderhead (cloud) yet?

... We sail in all sorts of weather that would keep us in place
without RADAR. We also sail at night.

WOW! Sailing at night... who'd have ever thought of THAT!!


.... My
RADAR wasn't all that expensive, but it has been extremely useful on several
occasions where we might have been a lot less secure without it.


Agreed. It's main value is in the utility... but it is only
a tool, not a magic genie.

Our RADAR came with the boat, and it's relatively old. But
after proper tuning, it works great and in the last few
years I have learned a lot about working with our RADAR. In
the future I would recommend RADAR as a worthwhile working
tool for cruising.

DSK

Random acts of stupidity
 

Walt wrote:

I've sailed with Bart. He and I don't always agree, but I'd say he
has the experience to justifiably take on a knowing air from time
to time.

Fair enough. Sometimes know-it-alls *do* know it all. It's not the
way to bet, but it happens occasionally.

If the crew knew their stuff, don't you think they'd recognise the same in
Bart? And if they did, wouldn't they, like most sailors, be happy to engage
in conversation with someone who isn't just some know-nothing tourist?


--
Capt Scumbalino

Random acts of stupidity
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Charlie Morgan wrote:
....In the LIS, sudden isolated thunder storms are a
possibility
in almost every forecast in the summer. It's nice to
know where they are and
sail around them.

??

You're how old, and you haven't learned to spot a
thunderhead (cloud) yet?

... We sail in all sorts of weather that would keep us
in place
without RADAR. We also sail at night.

WOW! Sailing at night... who'd have ever thought of THAT!!


Should I stop sailing at night until I can afford a radar?

Scotty

Random acts of stupidity
 

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On 27 Oct 2006 17:58:10 -0500, Dave
wrote:


I have to disagree. The size of the boat, the age, and the
relative value are
completely immaterial.


So, you'd put radar on a Sunfish?

Random acts of stupidity
 

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:08:00 -0400, "Scotty"
wrote:


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
.. .
On 27 Oct 2006 17:58:10 -0500, Dave
wrote:


I have to disagree. The size of the boat, the age, and
the
relative value are
completely immaterial.


So, you'd put radar on a Sunfish?


When you get a boat that is worth cruising in, let us
know.


Why, I wouldn't invite you .