An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

OzOne wrote:
Many classes have max constant wind limits.
The reason being that the boats are unsailable at much above those
limits because of crew weight restrictions and the huge sail area that
many carry.

To fit reefing points goes totally against the one design concept
because suddenly someone can have a smaller sail when there are limits
in place not only for max but also min sail measurements.

Why have limits on minimum sail measurements?

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Maxprop wrote:


Maxprop wrote:
You should know by now that I'm not in favor of the nanny principle,
either in race committes or government.

Well, then why do you speak up in favor of the Race Committee acting like
a nanny?

So, you advocate a race committe staying out of decisions that might save
lives? Would you have opposed the race committee's postponement of that
ill-fated Sydney-Hobart ('94 I think) had they known before hand that the
weather would turn violent?

.... But you should also know that nationally and internationally ranked
sailors won't pass up the opportunity to sail in their respective Worlds,
even when conditions are poor.

Baloney. Nobody, no matter how intensely competitive they are, wants to
die... or lose crew, either from death, serious injury, or just saying
"I'm not sailing with you crazy MF-ers ever again." Nobody wants to break
expensive gear, and by the time most sailors reach this level of
competition, they are aware that breaking stuff is slow.

I've seen sailors put out to the course when everyone knew it would be a
disaster with broken equipment and possible injuries or death. No ranked
sailor was going to forego a race of fairly major importance, if the race
committe was heading out themselves. I also saw one of the Levinson boys
(Indianapolis--top Snipe sailors) pulled from the water after one such race,
given CPR, and thankfully revived. After that race, the race committee was
roundly chastized by almost everyone for not cancelling. And the race
chairman faced a class-action lawsuit by a group of sailors who had lost
boats. The case was ultimately decided in favor of the chairman, the judge
citing "final responsibility" to be that of each skipper. And I agree with
that decision. But a lot of trouble could have been prevented if the
committee or the chairman had simply called the race. It's not a matter of
nanny politics--it's a matter of common sense.

The prudent thing to do would be to delay or reschedule in order to
prevent the sort of losses the Soling Worlds experienced.


If you need a nanny, sure.

Let's check the report from that regatta ans see how many of the racers
spoke up in favor of the Race Committee cancelling races so that they
don't have to be responsible for themselves.





I never said they were responsible for broken gear or, in a worst-case
scenario, dead sailors. Each skipper is. But such occurrences could be
prevented by the RC. As I stated above, top sailors typically won't make
the tough decision to take a pass

The heck they won't.

It's clearly obvious you've never been close to racing at the national or
international level.


Part of the situation here is that conditions went from bad, but raceable,
to barely survivable. By the time each individual skipper came to the
decision to shift from "race" to "survival" to "let's get the heck out of
this, if possible," it was too late to do anything except try to avoid
casualty... unsuccessfully, in some unfortunate cases.

Weather isn't that difficult to forecast. Too often I've watched a RC head
out after looking at the sky and saying, "Hmm--looks like it could get
nasty, but what the hell." No consultation of The Weather Channel or NOAA
or even the local weather folks.

Any racer with some years experience will have gotten into weather
situations that forced priority over racing tactics. Any *sailor* will
recognize that threshold as it approaches, in many cases while still
standing on the dock.

Freak weather phenomena aren't unheard of, but with the predictability of
major storms today such occurrences should be rare.

There's too much at stake, such as their jobs with sailmakers, etc. So
the RC is in the perfect position to prevent the sort of things that
happened at the Soling Worlds. They failed to exercise their option,
IMO.


Again... you claim that you're against nanny-ism but here you are
insisting it should be done. One of the most glaring reasons why you are
neither conservative nor libertarian is that you cannot stick to your
principles.

Bull****. This isn't even close to a matter of principle. It's common
sense. Would you make a base jump if the wind was blowing 40kts.? Fact is
that I've seen jumpers do exactly that, exercising no common sense whatever.
And I've watched them die doing so. But let's not abandon our principles
here--death is such a minor inconvenience. By the way, I knew you couldn't
abstain from attacking me personally. g

I love it when the wind blows like double-stink, and IMHO if the RC
cancels a race in conditions where I am more likely to do well, then my
score is being prejudiced. I don't need a nanny, and don't want one on the
race course.

Ft. Lauderdale, mid-70s, Snipe Nationals--Earl Elms ultimately won. On the
first day the winds were out of the northeast at 25kts. and the RC postponed
the first race to see what the wind and sea looked like in two hours.
During that two-hour period, the wind shifted from the NE to the SW,
preceding a squall from the area south of the Keys. Straight-line winds in
excess of 70kts. were recorded. Many Snipes blew over, attached to their
trailers and were damaged or ruined. Had the boats been on the course,
there would have been dead sailors, not just wrecked boats. The RC made the
right call, based upon the predicted weather when the winds are from the NE.
Damn nannies.

Max

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bart wrote:
I agree completely with you Doug. I like it when it is nasty
out there. It is an opportunity for good judgment (i.e. not
setting a spinnaker) might mean passing a string of broached
yachts. Judgment is part of the game.


It definitely should be, it's part of the good seamanship that many
non-racing sailors claim us racers lack.

LOL. In a perfect world, maybe. In reality, I've seen things that would
grow hair on your chest--even yours. The racers I've known varied, just
like the general population, from brilliant to patently stupid. Judgment
goes out the window in all too many situations. One of the fastest Thistle
sailors I ever met--he was the NA and National Champion at least twice
each--had the misfortune of having absolutely no judgment at all, except
w/r/t racing tactics and sailing fast. He backed his gorgeous new boat into
a chain-link fence, dropped it from a hoist, and ran a tire on his trailer
over a rock which tipped the whole thing on its side. He also went out for
a daysail with his girlfriend one weekend and ended up being charged with
manslaughter when she drowned during a squall that was predicted hours
before. He was a fast fool.


Sailing in heavy air is also a different skill set, like racing in light
air. You have to tune in to different actions, have different reflexes &
priorities. That's one of the great things about sailing, it's many sports
rolled into one.

I've been in races that were abandoned when the RC had to leave station to
go rescue boats. That's forgiveable, but to have them simply call it off
because "it's too windy" is just lame.

I've seldom seen a race called because it was "too windy." I've seen them
called when a wall cloud was spotted trailing a squall line. I've seen them
called when the sky turned into an electrical extravaganza. And I've seen
them postponed when the knowledge of the members of the RC indicated that
things could go from bad to horrific. I've also seen them cancelled when
things were predicted to get nasty, but didn't. But I've almost never seen
one called because "it's too windy."


Max

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:15:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

Maxprop wrote:
Isn't it contingent upon the race committee to cancel a race when such
conditions are present?


Not at all.

Maxprop wrote:
You should know by now that I'm not in favor of the nanny principle,
either
in race committes or government.

Well, then why do you speak up in favor of the Race
Committee acting like a nanny?


Nanny? They are also charged with cancelling the race if there is not
enough
wind. Any problem with that? Whether to participate in a race is up to the
individual captains UP TO A POINT. The committee has a responsibility to
cancel
the event if the conditions are clearly too dangerous, and it is not being
a
nanny, you ninny.

Doug hasn't come to grips with the concept of common sense.

Max

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

Maxprop wrote:

Isn't it contingent upon the race committee to cancel a race when such
conditions are present? I've never raced Solings, but Snipes, Thistles,
Lightnings, Ensigns, Lasers, and MC Scows all have bylaws which give race
committees the option of canceling if conditions exist which could
endanger
crew or severely damage equipment. I believe sinking qualifies as
severely-damaged equipment.

I realize people travel from all over the world to such events, but I'd
tend
to believe life and limb are more important than inconveniencing a group
of
sailors who've traveled long distances.

Max

I think it might be a wise move to install reefing gear on a racing
boat, in classes that don't normally have them, such that they can
maitnain control. I wonder if such equipment is prohibited by class
rules.

Frankly I've never seen reefing gear on a racing dinghy. I can't really say
if it is prohibited, but I suspect it wouldn't be well-accepted among
racers. Sailing a Snipe, for example, in high wind is relative easy. One
just eases the main sufficiently to carry a monstrous luff back to the
battens. "Sailing on the battens" is common in winds over 12kts. in such
small class boats, and it doesn't slow the boat a bit. Rather it keeps the
boat on its feet. Downwind is another matter. It takes an agile
skipper/crew to be able to compensate for gusts which tend to drive the
main, mastfirst, into the water. Finn sailors get very good at such
maneuvers.

Max

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

Maxprop wrote:
LOL. In a perfect world, maybe. In reality, I've seen things that would
grow hair on your chest--even yours.

Nothing like a little ad hominem when you've been caught
practicing rank hypocrisy, eh?

And if you've seen things that would grow hair on my chest,
what's your excuse?


... The racers I've known varied, just
like the general population, from brilliant to patently stupid.

I've known relatively few that were really stupid.


.... Judgment
goes out the window in all too many situations.

Agreed.


I've been in races that were abandoned when the RC had to leave station to
go rescue boats. That's forgiveable, but to have them simply call it off
because "it's too windy" is just lame.


I've seldom seen a race called because it was "too windy."

In that case, your claim to have seen any chest-hair-growing
situations is doubtful. I've seen RC's keep races going in
30 ~ 35 knots on relatively open water... a good call IMHO,
although a flock of capsized & swamped boats in the starting
area made things more challenging. OTOH I have seen RCs
cancel because the RC boat's anchor kept dragging in 40+
gusts, not a problem because all the racers had gone in.



... I've seen them
called when a wall cloud was spotted trailing a squall line.


Sounds like a situation that could prejudice the
competition... or maybe not... depending on how it developed.


I've seen them
called when the sky turned into an electrical extravaganza.

Silly. I go in when we see lightning... have done so when
leading, in fact. It's a judgement call for the RC, since
they're the ones that will have to go around rescuing people
in a thunderstorm. But the RC should not presume to make
safety decisions for all skippers.


And I've seen
them postponed when the knowledge of the members of the RC indicated that
things could go from bad to horrific. I've also seen them cancelled when
things were predicted to get nasty, but didn't. But I've almost never seen
one called because "it's too windy."


Never, or "almost never"?

DSK

An account from the 2006 Soling Worlds
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:
LOL. In a perfect world, maybe. In reality, I've seen things that would
grow hair on your chest--even yours.

Nothing like a little ad hominem when you've been caught practicing rank
hypocrisy, eh?

Nothing hypocritical about it--I told you quite a while back that I've taken
off the glove and will verbally attack you personally whenever you do so to
me. It's clearly obvious you can't help yourself w/r/t personal attacks, so
I'm joining rather than fighting. It's so much easier and more fun this
way.


And if you've seen things that would grow hair on my chest, what's your
excuse?

I have plenty, thanks.

... The racers I've known varied, just like the general population, from
brilliant to patently stupid.

I've known relatively few that were really stupid.

Same here, but by your comment you admit that you've known *some* stupid
racers. Thanks for the verification.

.... Judgment goes out the window in all too many situations.

Agreed.


I've been in races that were abandoned when the RC had to leave station
to go rescue boats. That's forgiveable, but to have them simply call it
off because "it's too windy" is just lame.


I've seldom seen a race called because it was "too windy."

In that case, your claim to have seen any chest-hair-growing situations is
doubtful.

How does 60kt. gusts strike you? How about a squall that left 15' steep
waves in its wake? How about watching a 65' motor yacht (spectator) capsize
in high winds and waves while sailors struggled to stay afloat and alive?
My claims are valid, despite your doubt.

I've seen RC's keep races going in 30 ~ 35 knots on relatively open
water... a good call IMHO, although a flock of capsized & swamped boats in
the starting area made things more challenging. OTOH I have seen RCs
cancel because the RC boat's anchor kept dragging in 40+ gusts, not a
problem because all the racers had gone in.



... I've seen them called when a wall cloud was spotted trailing a squall
line.


Sounds like a situation that could prejudice the competition... or maybe
not... depending on how it developed.


I've seen them called when the sky turned into an electrical
extravaganza.

Silly. I go in when we see lightning... have done so when leading, in
fact. It's a judgement call for the RC, since they're the ones that will
have to go around rescuing people in a thunderstorm. But the RC should not
presume to make safety decisions for all skippers.

No. We wouldn't want any nannies out there, would we?

And I've seen them postponed when the knowledge of the members of the RC
indicated that things could go from bad to horrific. I've also seen them
cancelled when things were predicted to get nasty, but didn't. But I've
almost never seen one called because "it's too windy."


Never, or "almost never"?

Almost never. Snipe Nationals on the Gulf coast of Florida one year--can't
recall which. We had sailed three races beginning in 5kts and building to
20kts by the third, only to have the RC call the fourth because the wind was
gusting to 35. To their credit, the waves were getting unmanageable, and
the fourth was the last race of the day, easily postponed to the following
day.

Max