Actually, Doug....
 

That's good, considering that you apparently have no clue
what the black bands are for.


There is actual professional disagreement about the max hoist mark
which is found on some, but certainly not all sailboats.
I spoke to my loft about it and typically the black band is just a
piece of tape, showing maximum hoist for the sail that is sold with the
boat. In some cases you can extend the hoist a bit, and some cruising
sails will shorten it for a roach that's well beyond 10%. (BTW, the
roach of my Kevlar main is 8.5%).
But some spar manufacturers place the mark also as uppermost structural
point to raise a sail to. The Seldon mast that went into a Hughes 38
here was so marked and the thick weld-backing only extended that far
anyway. You couldn't hoist above that point.
Then there's the J30 I sail on which has two mains. The hoists are a
bit off and don't match at all. The shorter sail is better, but it's
only a few inches short. He could care less. He wins with that sail and
mostly cruises anyway.
All three lofts I spoke to agree that max hoist is for the SAIL in
almost every case though, not a structural factor. I asked Doyle about
my Kevlar main (we initially thought it measured short on the hoist by
a whopping 9 inches, but it was only 4.) and the sq. ft for my main is
actually greater than the stock sail. So the sail is "wrong" for being
short on the hoist by 4 inches and having more sail area via the roach
than the standard sail. Doyle, who lost a sale because I bought this,
says that the sail will be great and with no loss of sail area, it will
be a very fast sail. There was also a discussion about the inert
properties of Kevlar which transmit most of the wind force where it
belongs. He called it the "best economical conversion of wind energy
available for a sail." Kevlar also retains shape until it dies...while
Dacron starts deforming from day one. CF and other materials were also
discussed. "As far as hoists go" He said, "we can go a bit higher or a
bit shorter if you're not racing design that is!" He cuts dacron a bit
short because it'll stretch...less so for a Kevlar of course!
In any case, I have a great cruising sail. It was built for racing, but
so what? It's in near new condition and fits like a glove. When we
hoisted it actually went higher up than the Beneteau Mylar, so what's
up with that?
Makes no difference. It will be a fast sail and it looks awesome! And
Sloco is miserable over it! Wait until he sees my Lewmar 80mm HL
blocks!

Pics posting soon.


RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

There is actual professional disagreement about the max hoist mark
which is found on some, but certainly not all sailboats.
I spoke to my loft about it and typically the black band is just a
piece of tape, showing maximum hoist for the sail that is sold with the

boat.

Why keep trying to save your ass on this one dimwit. The above
statement is untrue and a real laugh if you claim pros back you up.
A black band is put on a mast to indicate the 'P' dimension or in
other words the max hoist for the mainsail. The boat designer/rig
designer determine these dimensions. It is not just a piece of tape to
indicate max hoist for one sail. Your looking dumber with every post
on this topic.

Actually, Doug....
 

A black band is put on a mast to indicate the 'P' dimension or in
other words the max hoist for the mainsail. The boat designer/rig
designer determine these dimensions.



Wrong. The P Measurement is listed in specs and if you depend on the
fellow who taped it on, you've made a mistake and a big one. The P
dimension for the 35s5 given on the BeneteauUSA.com website matches
this sail exactly. So what about the black band in the photo's, Sloco?
Is the builder spec wrong if th black band is higher?

Now...here's yet ANOTHER PHOTO

http://www.rottesostenibili.it/image...st35s5_big.jpg

That looks like a pretty big gap between the max hoist and the
masthead, doesn't it? Just like my sail. And that sail looks to have
little to no roach while mine has 8.5%.

Oh, and here's another main with a slightly reduced hoist to allow for
greater roach:

http://somersetsails.com/sails/Kevla...il_C&C-37-.jpg

And yet ANOTHER 35s5 showing hoist below the black band, but with a LOT
of roach. This in Windriven, a VERY winning race boat.

http://www.lakeontario300.org/images...windriven1.jpg

So....DOUG AND SLOCO, what do you have to say NOW????? HMMMMM?????

El KaBONG!!!!! Or is it the Hippo Hurricane Holler!!!!???


RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

Actually Bob, the black band is a measurement point for rating a
yacht.



Again, there appears to be a dispute and this is obviously not the ONLY
reason for the black band. I sailed a IP 35 this summer and it had the
mark...and I can assure it never raced or sought a specific rating when
he bought it new.

Here's a pic of the IP 35 showing the band as well.

http://anchoryachts.com/images/isl03...l035s001_1.jpg



RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

Yep, many manufacturers declare their yacht to have a certain rating.
That rating is gained / calculated by using specific measurements.
Of course the rating needs to be confirmed after a check measure but
it's a starting point for new purchasers.



But it's not carved in stone, Ozzy. Otherwise no one would be adding
roach. If you're not sailing one design, you can do as you please to
improve a sailplan to suit.
In the case of the mast for the Hughes 38 it was carved in stone
however.



RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

Your boat will rate exactly the same with it's bands in their location
no matter what mainsail was fitted and no matter how short your sail
may be on the luff.


Then why was the PO owner's 35s5 re-rated based on the slightly altered
measurements of this Kevlar sail. I'm no racer....help me out here.


RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

I do find it a little odd that IF Benny build the yacht with a short
luffed sail that they would then have a measurement point well above
the 'normal' hoist.



It IS odd and if you've been looking at the posted pics I'm being 100%
truthful about it. I have the original main and it also hoisted
short...at least to my eye, there's a foot or more of slide above it.
You can really see it here....


http://www.rottesostenibili.it/image...st35s5_big.jpg

and here...

http://www.lakeontario300.org/images...windriven1.jpg

The second photo has the roach just missing the backstay and the hoist
is below the black band.

Of course none of this matters in the real world...I'm just bopping
around daysailing and short cruises. These will be fun and fast
sails....

Here's another shot:

http://somersetsails.com/sails/Mikes_Beneteau-35S5.jpg


RB
35s5
NY

Actually, Doug....
 

But it's not carved in stone, Ozzy.

Of course not, it's "carved" on the mast in black tape


Otherwise no one would be adding
roach.

Does "adding roach" affect the I & P measurements?

If you're not sailing one design, you can do as you please to
improve a sailplan to suit.

Within reason, yes. And it generally is a good dea to be
honest with the rating committee.


OzOne wrote:
What are you talking about?

He doesn't know either.

The black band is a rating mark.
It is used in conjunction with the other measurements of yacht and
sailplan to rate the yacht.
Your boat will rate exactly the same with it's bands in their location
no matter what mainsail was fitted and no matter how short your sail
may be on the luff.


Generally, they don't care if you have smaller sails, they
just don't want you to have bigger ones than stated.



I do find it a little odd that IF Benny build the yacht with a short
luffed sail that they would then have a measurement point well above
the 'normal' hoist.


They made it custom, by special request from Bubbles.

The bands also help make sure the forces on the rig are
where the designer intended, like the tension on main leach
could (in theory) pull the mast out of column. Another issue
is the running rigging, I remember a number of cases in
one-design classes where people monkeyed with the black bands.

The case I remember best, it was actually white bands on
black anodized spars (what a stupid idea that is, who wants
to be able to fry an egg on their boom in summer). This
too-smart guy moved his top band up about 3/4" and the
bottom one down the same. Wow what an increase in sail area!
The problem is that he had to go to another sailmaker to get
his bigger sail, not competitive in the class. Plus, the
headboard got jammed at the top because the halyard went
over & into the sheave right against the bolt rope. As I
recall, there was some discussion of banning him from the
class but the concensus was "why bother?"

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Actually, Doug....
 

Does "adding roach" affect the I & P measurements?

It will if you want to keep the roach off the backstay. Witness he

http://www.lakeontario300.org/images...windriven1.jpg
and here...
http://somersetsails.com/sails/Kevla...il_C&C-37-.jpg


Within reason, yes. And it generally is a good dea to be
honest with the rating committee.

Of course. And if I decided to race, my sails would attract some
attention anyway.

Generally, they don't care if you have smaller sails, they
just don't want you to have bigger ones than stated.

The kevlar main is a bit larger. I'm not racing so this really doesn't
matter.


They made it custom, by special request from Bubbles.

Yup, that's why you can see it in EVERY pic I posted, right Doug. I
love you guys going on and on about this while ignoring photographic
evidence that clearly shows you're off the mark, but it's fine with me!

The bands also help make sure the forces on the rig are
where the designer intended

THAT is the single definition that would worry me if I has a sail that
hoisted higher. Lower hoists happen all the time when reefed.

In any case I have a nice set of sails. I'm hoping Sloco can come to
terms with it in time.


RB
35s5
NY