Hey, Bart
 

Video of Dutchman system, which, while promotional, will allow you to
see why it has some issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8EPk...elated&search=


RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Video of Dutchman system, which, while promotional, will allow you to
see why it has some issues.

??? What issues? This video just shows how it works.
You are talking nonsense again. Please remember to
take your medication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8EPk...elated&search=

North Sails is the largest sail manufacturer
in the world. They think the Dutchman System is the
best sail flaking system and give supportable reasons
in a side-by side comparison. The winner is clear.

The link to the North Sails forum discusses the issues.
The issues listed at North Sails are minor compared to
what it does for you. They rate it the number one system
available. That is all I have to say on the subject.

Thanks for the video, and remember to take your meds,
it will help you control your urge to shove your unsupported
foot in you mouth.

Hey, Bart
 

North Sails is the largest sail manufacturer
in the world.



Do you think North will sell you a Doyle Stackpack?
Like I said. Ask people who used both systems and you'll have a clear
winner. Or search online for comparisons in forums. Stackpack is
prefered.


RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a few
flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly. I've used them
for years on several different boats. Never had a problem. Never had a
batten get caught in it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bart" wrote in message
oups.com...

Capt. Rob wrote:
Video of Dutchman system, which, while promotional, will allow you to
see why it has some issues.

??? What issues? This video just shows how it works.
You are talking nonsense again. Please remember to
take your medication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8EPk...elated&search=

North Sails is the largest sail manufacturer
in the world. They think the Dutchman System is the
best sail flaking system and give supportable reasons
in a side-by side comparison. The winner is clear.

The link to the North Sails forum discusses the issues.
The issues listed at North Sails are minor compared to
what it does for you. They rate it the number one system
available. That is all I have to say on the subject.

Thanks for the video, and remember to take your meds,
it will help you control your urge to shove your unsupported
foot in you mouth.

Hey, Bart
 

Capt. JG wrote:
Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a few
flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly. I've used them
for years on several different boats. Never had a problem. Never had a
batten get caught in it.

We have Lazy Jacks...now...you want to talk about battens catching We
have to do maneuvers both raising and lowering the main so we don't
catch...better than nothing at all, though and having the main slide all
over the coachtop....

Hey, Bart
 

I never liked LJs after the first couple of times using them... better than
nothing, and they work if you know what you're dealing with. Stack packs are
nice, but I hate sailing around with all that fabric flapping in the breeze.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"katy" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a few
flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly. I've used
them for years on several different boats. Never had a problem. Never had
a batten get caught in it.

We have Lazy Jacks...now...you want to talk about battens catching We
have to do maneuvers both raising and lowering the main so we don't
catch...better than nothing at all, though and having the main slide all
over the coachtop....

Hey, Bart
 

katy wrote:
Capt. JG wrote:
Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a
few flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly. I've
used them for years on several different boats. Never had a problem.
Never had a batten get caught in it.

We have Lazy Jacks...now...you want to talk about battens catching We
have to do maneuvers both raising and lowering the main so we don't
catch...better than nothing at all, though and having the main slide all
over the coachtop....
Why do you have the lazy jacks deployed while raising the main? On my
boat I stow them at the mast while raising the sail and while under way.
Then I deploy them just before I drop the sail. I haven't had it catch a
batten while dropping the sail (so far...).

--Alan

Hey, Bart
 

Alan Gomes wrote:
katy wrote:
Capt. JG wrote:
Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a
few flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly. I've
used them for years on several different boats. Never had a problem.
Never had a batten get caught in it.

We have Lazy Jacks...now...you want to talk about battens catching
We have to do maneuvers both raising and lowering the main so we don't
catch...better than nothing at all, though and having the main slide
all over the coachtop....
Why do you have the lazy jacks deployed while raising the main? On my
boat I stow them at the mast while raising the sail and while under way.
Then I deploy them just before I drop the sail. I haven't had it catch a
batten while dropping the sail (so far...).

--Alan
Vecause they are permanent...you cannot deploy and undeploy them without
having to unthread the whole thing and having to stand on the boom to
rethread back through the blocks. There is not enough line to draw the
whole thing back to the mast...and since out main is old, we've found
that pulling the system taut in some situations keeps the main from
bagging out...a consolation prize until we can afford a new main....

Hey, Bart
 

Total nonsense. The system is much better off the wind, and perhaps a
few
flicks of the wrist is needed to get it to flake perfectly.



I wonder if Ganzy has even used both systems. I notice no one can
dispute the points I made. Chafing is reported even by North. So is the
dirt problem. Read the forums and lots of folks cut the system down
when sails age. You STILL have to battle the sail cover on.
The Stackpack is superior.

I've given plenty of reasons why. Let's see some intelligent discussion
on it if you think otherwise. As I said...both are excellent. The Doyle
system is just easier and neater. In fact, when the Stackpack is
reefed, there's no sail material hanging out. Very nice indeed.
Dutchman has licensed it's system and Doyle has not, so you see more of
the Dutchman system.



RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Katy,

Lazy Jacks and Batten fouling. It sure does! I did correct it somewhat
by attaching the "Jacks" to the boom with clips so that I could secure
the the whole system at the mast during Main Sail hoisting.

I preferred the jacks to the the "Dutchman" because of changing the
Mains on Race Nights. A lite air main was awful nice on drifter nights
but you had to get them off fast if the wind pick up.

Katy, you can correct the batten fouling with two bungy cords at the
:goose neck so that as you release tension on your jacks they will be
automatically be drawn forward.

By the way; You can see your "Cat" in the third attachment in the
signature.


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ILLDRINKTOTHAT

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/IDONTFEELGOOD

Hey, Bart
 

Dave wrote:
Sorry, meant to say the "Doyle" system, not the "North" system in my
previous post.


Dave, the Dutchman is sold everywhere...or pretty much. The Doyle Stack
pack is patented and only sold through Doyle. Lots of lofts like North
won't even mention the stackpack for that reason, since they can't sell
it. Of COURSE they told Bart it's the best. Ask folks who've used both
and look online at forum comments. But beyond that, looking at both
systems, it's a simple pick to use the one that requires no sail mods,
keeps the sail clean and ends the sail cover hassle.
Again...both are very nice, but the Doyle has clear advantages that the
Dutchman loses points on.


RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Thom Stewart wrote:
Katy,

Lazy Jacks and Batten fouling. It sure does! I did correct it somewhat
by attaching the "Jacks" to the boom with clips so that I could secure
the the whole system at the mast during Main Sail hoisting.

I preferred the jacks to the the "Dutchman" because of changing the
Mains on Race Nights. A lite air main was awful nice on drifter nights
but you had to get them off fast if the wind pick up.

Katy, you can correct the batten fouling with two bungy cords at the
:goose neck so that as you release tension on your jacks they will be
automatically be drawn forward.

By the way; You can see your "Cat" in the third attachment in the
signature.


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ILLDRINKTOTHAT

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomPage

http://community.webtv.net/tassail/IDONTFEELGOOD

hahahaha...that is the most obscene cat picture in the world....
I suspect that the previous owners of Chanteuse hacked off the excess
line on the LH's...they will not loosen to the point of being able to do
that...would end up with the bitter end flying through the block
above...when we get a new main, I'll probably replace that line...

Hey, Bart
 

Dave wrote:

On 4 Oct 2006 10:38:09 -0700, "Capt. Rob" ? said:

?Dave, the Dutchman is sold everywhere...or pretty much. The Doyle Stack
?pack is patented and only sold through Doyle.

Methinks there's a great deal you need to learn [snip superfluous words].

Methinks you've hit the nail on the head!

Cheers
Marty
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------
For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption
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Hey, Bart
 

Nutsy,

Have you ever seen a Doyle Stack Pak on a racing boat in a race? I don't
think so.

The biggest objection I have to them, is the ungodly amount of windage
they create on a Main that you are paying good Dollars to make
efficient. Easy Yes; better than nothing????

Your boat really would suffer badly with a Sack Pak. Your larger Main is
your primary driving engine and a Stack Pak flapping around the Boom
with connected Lazy Jack would be a bad thing

Ole Thom;--- Beach bum

Hey, Bart
 

Yes, in fact, a reputable sailmaker would not recommend them for tired
sails.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 10:38:09 -0700, "Capt. Rob" said:

Ask folks who've used both
and look online at forum comments.

I do keep an eye out for comments on that topic. Generally, what I see
favors the Dutchman except in the case of old sails. My limited direct
experience with the Dutchman system points the same direction.

Hey, Bart
 

Me thinks you all have nails IN the head. Excerpt from Doylesuperyacht:

"This was soon followed by the introduction of the fully battened, self
stowing, patented STACKPACK mainsail system."

Look it up.

RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Dave...I've seen NO ONE in any forum pick a Dutchman over Stackpack.
But that asside, why not address the points I made?

1) Stackpack keeps the sail completely covered. Dutchman does not.
2) Stackpack does not poke holes in the sail. Dutchman mods the sail
with holes and plastic fittings.
3) Stackpack works well, even as the sail becomes older. Dutchman has
problems with older sails.
4) Stackpack allows for quick removal of the entire covered main.
5) Stackpack can be removed for racing (That's correct, Thom). Dutchman
is a mess to remove.
6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/
7) Stackpack never chafes. Dutchman can chafe.
8) Stackpack will work with more than one main...your current
inventory. Dutchman requires EACH sail to be modded.

That's a LOT of strikes against the dutchman. You can argue a few, but
not all. Doyle Stackpack is the winner for a cruising boat. While the
Doyle system can be removed for racing, I'd pick neither on a boat that
was to be campaigned.
As for Thom's worries about windage, it's really minimal, just a few
inches higher than the covered main at the mast and barely any higher
as it goes aft. The Sweden 39 owner, which has a pretty big rig, has
had absolutley no problems with it and he's on M dock where there's
more wind at the slips. He had the Dutchman system as I did before.


RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

Thom Stewart wrote:
Katy,

Lazy Jacks and Batten fouling. It sure does! I did correct it somewhat
by attaching the "Jacks" to the boom with clips so that I could secure
the the whole system at the mast during Main Sail hoisting.


Th eonly problem with that is the main falls all over the
place when you un-do the lazy jacks.


I preferred the jacks to the the "Dutchman" because of changing the
Mains on Race Nights. A lite air main was awful nice on drifter nights
but you had to get them off fast if the wind pick up.

Katy, you can correct the batten fouling with two bungy cords at the
:goose neck so that as you release tension on your jacks they will be
automatically be drawn forward.


Another way is to secure the lazy jacks a short ways
outboard of the mast on the spreaders.

Handling full battens sails with lazy jacks can be a bit of
a PITA but imho they're worth it. The Dutchman system keeps
the sail totally under control at all times.

DSK

Hey, Bart
 

Do I correctly understand you to claim that both of you had Dutchman
systems
installed on your present boats, and removed them to replace them with
your
Doyle system?


I removed my dutchman system. It's in my dockbox. He removed the system
because he carries more than one main and races. As I said, for the
Dutchman you need to convert each sail. The stackpack allows use of any
main without mods.
I notice that no one has addressed the points I made in favor of the
Stackpack. Here they are again and I'd like to see someone, ANYONE
refute these:

1) Stackpack keeps the sail completely covered. Dutchman does not.
2) Stackpack does not poke holes in the sail. Dutchman mods the sail
with holes and plastic fittings.
3) Stackpack works well, even as the sail becomes older. Dutchman has
problems with older sails.
4) Stackpack allows for quick removal of the entire covered main.
5) Stackpack can be removed for racing (That's correct, Thom). Dutchman

is a mess to remove.
6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/
7) Stackpack never chafes. Dutchman can chafe.
8) Stackpack will work with more than one main...your current
inventory. Dutchman requires EACH sail to be modded.

Well?

RB

Hey, Bart
 

Not my experience. In fact, from what I saw of the Dutchman, you drop
the
sail and didn't even have to touch it further before putting on the
cover.
It simply falls into place neatly flaked on the boom.



Like any system, even the Dutchman needs some help from time to time
and it can out of whack from the wind when coming down. After a few
years of regular sailing it can really lose it's flaking snap. The
Doyle system continues to work well, even with older mains.
Of course the Doyle doesn't have the step of putting on the cover at
all and when it's zipped up, it's really sealed.
When the Doyle system is reefed, the excess sail is neatly hidden in
the cover!

Anyone want to tackle the other points....here they are AGAIN!

1) Stackpack keeps the sail completely covered. Dutchman does not.
2) Stackpack does not poke holes in the sail. Dutchman mods the sail
with holes and plastic fittings.
3) Stackpack works well, even as the sail becomes older. Dutchman has
problems with older sails.
4) Stackpack allows for quick removal of the entire covered main.
5) Stackpack can be removed for racing (That's correct, Thom). Dutchman

is a mess to remove.
6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/
7) Stackpack never chafes. Dutchman can chafe.
8) Stackpack will work with more than one main...your current
inventory. Dutchman requires EACH sail to be modded.

RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

My experience also. No system is perfect, but the Dutchman is easy and
efficient.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 15:55:31 -0700, "Capt. Rob" said:

6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/

Not my experience. In fact, from what I saw of the Dutchman, you drop the
sail and didn't even have to touch it further before putting on the cover.
It simply falls into place neatly flaked on the boom.

Hey, Bart
 

Nutsy?

I know you can remove a Stack Pak BUT Nutsy; how do you handle the "JACK
LINES" when you re-install it on the Furled Main?

Nutsy, I do believe I'm addressing one of your DA points.

Hey, Bart
 

I know you can remove a Stack Pak BUT Nutsy; how do you handle the
"JACK
LINES" when you re-install it on the Furled Main?


You can order with the canvas holes clipped so that you just open them,
slip the jack lines through and close them up again.
AGAIN...both systems are great, but the Doyle Stackpack is more
flexible, lasts for the whole life of the sail and is a LOT easier to
use.


RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

"Swab Rob" wrote in message
oups.com..
..

But beyond that, looking at both
systems, it's a simple pick

Yulp a very simple pick, as always, do the opposite of what
Bob recommends.

Scotty

Hey, Bart
 

Yulp a very simple pick, as always, do the opposite of what
Bob recommends.



Yes, you bought the opposite camera, right??!!!



RB
35s5
NY

Hey, Bart
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com..
..

Yulp a very simple pick, as always, do the opposite of
what
Bob recommends.


caveat; when it comes to sailing stuff.



Yes, you bought the opposite camera, right??!!!


You are wrong!!!!


SBV

Hey, Bart
 

"Scotty" wrote in

"Swab Rob" wrote

But beyond that, looking at both
systems, it's a simple pick

Yulp a very simple pick, as always, do the opposite of what
Bob recommends.

Scotty

An astute observation Scotty. He has such a dependent
need to be noticed that he choses the opposite of the correct
viewpoint. My 8 year old niece used to do this. Fortunately
she grew out of it.