What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

http://www.northsails.com/north_amer...ilHandling.htm

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Bart wrote:
http://www.northsails.com/north_amer...ilHandling.htm


Bart, I had the dutchman on the 35s5 and removed it. After a few
seasons of heavy sailing, it not only mars the sails, but also doesn't
always flake very well. Chafing is a factor. It's also a bit messy
looking with the fishing line everywhere. A Island Packet 35 got it
installed and he got the those gray streaks on his sails after just one
season with the boat in Florida.

I chose the Doyle stackpack after trying it out on a Sweden 39 and
Catalina 34. It does not get involved with sail or put holes in it. It
zips closed easily (most of the time!). The entired covered sail can be
slid off the boom at the end of the season. The only downside is the
height of the fabric near the mast...it may be too high on a boat as
large as yours. You do need to reach it to zip it up and to help the
sail fall into place at times. Full battons are not a bad idea...and
your main will last longer as well. I don't pay what others do, but my
"guess" is that a stackpack setup for your boat would be somewhere
between 1500 and 2000 dollars.
Typically I'd be cool with lazyjacks, but with a toddler on board we're
seeking to speed up our packup time. I see folks come in with that
Stackpack...and they just go home while I wrestle my sail in a slow
match. Remember that the Stackpack incorporates a lazyjack system and a
integral sailcover.
I can save you a few dollars if you have any interest as Doyle works
with me and Boatmax.
Just a thought.


RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Bart wrote:
http://www.northsails.com/north_amer...ilHandling.htm

Capt. Rob wrote:
Video of Dutchman system, which, while promotional, will allow you to
see why it has some issues.

??? What issues? This video just shows how it works.
You are talking nonsense again. Please remember to
take your medication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8EPk...elated&search=

North Sails is the largest sail manufacturer
in the world. They think the Dutchman System is the
best sail flaking system and give supportable reasons
in a side-by side comparison. The winner is clear.

The link to the North Sails forum discusses the issues.
The issues listed at North Sails are minor compared to
what it does for you. They rate it the number one system
available. That is all I have to say on the subject.

Thanks for the video, and remember to take your meds,
it will help you control your urge to shove your unsupported
foot in you mouth.

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

??? What issues? This video just shows how it works.
You are talking nonsense again.


North has makes more money off the Dutchman than a loft like Doyle.
Doyle is the EXCLUSIVE seller of the stackpack, but also sells the
Dutchman. It's obvious why North "prefers" the Dutchman, but it's
simply not the best.

Downside of the Dutchman:
1) Chafing
2) quite a pain to remove your sail.
3) Does not fully protect the sail when covered.
4) Works VERY poorly as the sail ages.
5) Can foul on battons on some rigs.

Downside of the Stackpack:
1) Added windage when sail is down
2) Minimal loss of effective SA (I feel, though others say no)

Advantages of Doyle Stackpack:
1) FULLY protects the sail when covered
2) Requires no holes or mods on sail.
3) No chafing or fouling issues.
4) Very easy to remove, while leaving lazy jack system and sail in
place-better for racing/cruising boats.
5) Works great, even as a sail ages
6) Sailcover is integrated, so less work.

Bart, ask around. Both systems are excellent, but anyone who's had/used
both is willing to pay for the stackpack twice. The advantages of the
stackpack are very clear, even if you haven't used either.
Rather than talk about "meds" perhaps you can explain why you think the
Dutchman is better, asside from a loft (who wants your money) telling
you so.

RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Bart is on the Dutchman's payroll, Rob.


Sounds like it. But if North told him it's the best, it must be true!
Afterall, they are the largest sailmaker...that doesn't sell the
patented stackpack!
It's funny how people insist something is the best when they've made
their minds up...and nothing can sway them; not even facts. Look at
Bart's position on Bush for example.


RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 4 Oct 2006 10:41:16 -0700, "Capt. Rob" wrote:

Bart is on the Dutchman's payroll, Rob.



Sounds like it.


No, I'm serious. Bart works for him.

http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/i-instructors.html

CWM


But if North told him it's the best, it must be true!
Afterall, they are the largest sailmaker...that doesn't sell the
patented stackpack!
It's funny how people insist something is the best when they've made
their minds up...and nothing can sway them; not even facts. Look at
Bart's position on Bush for example.


RB
35s5
NY

Nothing wrong with that....

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

So what? Does that mean the Dutchman is worse than other systems? I think
it's much better, and I've sailed with several different kinds.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 10:41:16 -0700, "Capt. Rob" wrote:


Bart is on the Dutchman's payroll, Rob.




Sounds like it.


No, I'm serious. Bart works for him.

http://www.soundsailingcenter.com/i-instructors.html

CWM


But if North told him it's the best, it must be true!
Afterall, they are the largest sailmaker...that doesn't sell the
patented stackpack!
It's funny how people insist something is the best when they've made
their minds up...and nothing can sway them; not even facts. Look at
Bart's position on Bush for example.


RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

So what? Does that mean the Dutchman is worse than other systems? I
think
it's much better, and I've sailed with several different kinds.



How is it better than the stackpack which, has no chafe, no sail mods,
built in sail cover, better neater reefing, complete protection of the
main and is very easy to remove and re-install?
Outside of Bart's spam, my own observations and those of many people in
various forums would indicate that the stackpack is nicer. Just look at
both and it's clear.


RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

I don't take it that way. There's nothing wrong with stating that he likes
the product, even if he is an employee, though part time I'm sure. It's not
like he's hiding. We all know the story. So, what's the problem?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 12:27:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

So what? Does that mean the Dutchman is worse than other systems? I think
it's much better, and I've sailed with several different kinds.

When someone posts in usenet promoting a product for commercial gain,
it's SPAM, regardless of whether the product is the best or the worst
in the world.

In Bart's case, I would not consider it SPAM and unethical if he
posted his opinion as a reply to someone else's question, and simply
added a disclaimer stating that he is an employee of the person
selling the product.

Then again, he wasn't answering a question, anyway. He STARTED the
thread. That makes it an advertisement. Do you approve of advertising
made to look like a legitimate post?

Since he is trying to make it appear that he's merely a private person
making a personal recommendation, what he's doing is WRONG. He has a
conflict of interest.

Maybe you are like Bushco, and refuse to hold your friends accountable
for their actions, even when you know they are doing something they
shouldn't?

CWM

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Nothing wrong with one's own observations. My experience is the opposition.
I prefer the Dutchman, and I've sailed both many times.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On 4 Oct 2006 13:44:51 -0700, "Capt. Rob" said:

Outside of Bart's spam, my own observations and those of many people in
various forums would indicate that the stackpack is nicer. Just look at
both and it's clear.

Fact is that people nearly always try to justify what they themselves
have.
You're a classic example.

Both my reading and my experience (admittedly limited with these systems)
tell me you're deluding yourself. Note that the only person here who
claims
a fair amount of experience with both is telling you you're full of ****.

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Note that the only person here who claims
a fair amount of experience with both is telling you you're full of
****.


I've used both and no one here has yet to answer the points I made.
Obviously, the folks at Doyle like their system best. North wants to
sell what they have. But the folks at UK also suggested the Stackpack.
We do business with both Doyle and UK, so I don't get the sails pitch.
We also have the liveaboards using stackpacks quite a bit on the south
side. Several converted from the Dutchman.
They are different systems and both very good, but the stackpack is a
one step. You drop the sail into the cover and you're done. You still
have to wrestle the sailcover on with the Dutchman.
It looks like I'm the only one one to make any valid points...the rest
of you can't even respond.

1) Stackpack keeps the sail completely covered. Dutchman does not.
2) Stackpack does not poke holes in the sail. Dutchman mods the sail
with holes and plastic fittings.
3) Stackpack works well, even as the sail becomes older. Dutchman has
problems with older sails.
4) Stackpack allows for quick removal of the entire covered main.
5) Stackpack can be removed for racing (That's correct, Thom). Dutchman

is a mess to remove.
6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/
7) Stackpack never chafes. Dutchman can chafe.
8) Stackpack will work with more than one main...your current
inventory. Dutchman requires EACH sail to be modded.

Well???? I currently don't own either system. My Dutchman is in the
dockbox.

RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Ethical about what? Everyone knows that Bart has some affilliation with the
manufacturer. So, he's not hiding that fact. So what is unethical about
saying that I like to hear the opinion of someone who has direct
experience?????

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 15:53:54 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I don't take it that way. There's nothing wrong with stating that he likes
the product, even if he is an employee, though part time I'm sure. It's
not
like he's hiding. We all know the story. So, what's the problem?
know that as an employee, he's helping YOU to get a discount.

Either you are ethical or you are not. Make a choice, Jon.

CWM

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

I think it's more like good taste also. Personally, I would have said up
front, and perhaps he did.. can't remember, that he worked for them. In any
case, I happen to agree with his opinions about the systems.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 20:02:42 -0400, Charlie Morgan said:

I don't take it that way. There's nothing wrong with stating that he
likes
the product, even if he is an employee, though part time I'm sure. It's
not
like he's hiding. We all know the story. So, what's the problem?
know that as an employee, he's helping YOU to get a discount.

Either you are ethical or you are not. Make a choice, Jon.

I come down on Jon's side of this one, Charlie. Not a slam dunk call, but
it
seems to me that most everybody here knows Bart's affiliation, so it's not
a
matter of ethics but a matter of good taste. I thought the initial post
was
pretty close to the line so far as posting commercial messages in the NG
is
concerned, but certainly not outrageous.

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

already explained that quite clearly. You are no different than Bushco.

Congratulations, hypocrite.



Bart's plug was exactly that and he couldn't even address the
advantages of the Doyle system which improves greatly on the Dutchman
in several respects. Here they are AGAIN!

1) Stackpack keeps the sail completely covered. Dutchman does not.
2) Stackpack does not poke holes in the sail. Dutchman mods the sail
with holes and plastic fittings.
3) Stackpack works well, even as the sail becomes older. Dutchman has
problems with older sails.
4) Stackpack allows for quick removal of the entire covered main.
5) Stackpack can be removed for racing (That's correct, Thom). Dutchman

is a mess to remove.
6) Stackpack allows for neater reefing. Dutchman reefing is messy by
comparison/
7) Stackpack never chafes. Dutchman can chafe.
8) Stackpack will work with more than one main...your current
inventory. Dutchman requires EACH sail to be modded.

RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

No. You're just back to your same old ways, thus, the plonk.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:26:28 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

Ethical about what? Everyone knows that Bart has some affilliation with
the
manufacturer. So, he's not hiding that fact. So what is unethical about
saying that I like to hear the opinion of someone who has direct
experience?????

I already explained that quite clearly. You are no different than Bushco.
Congratulations, hypocrite.

CWM

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:28:03 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

No. You're just back to your same old ways, thus, the plonk.

Oh, MY!

CWM



Yeah, you've been plonked! Oh the humanity!!!!


RB
35s5
NY

What NOrth Sails recommends for mainsail flaking
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com..
..

Well???? I currently don't own either system. My Dutchman
is in the
dockbox.


Now *there's* a glaring recommendation!